RV-12 - tools & building

Hi Guys,
after selling my -8 project due to marital separation, I'm now looking a couple of years into the future at a new build. I don't have anywhere near the time or finances of my previous life, and for that reason a 'full-blown' RV (-7/-8) is probably not in scope. For a number of reasons, many to do with NZ laws, the microlight category is calling my name, since the RV-12 and similar (2-seats, under 600Kg mtow) can be built, registered and operated under microlight rules here.

So, I've been looking at the RV-12 and the Zenith CH650B. Don't worry, I've read a lot about both and this isn't a "which one" question. There are pros and cons to both, from many different angles.

I do need to know more about the actual construction of the -12 though. I have a single-width / double-length car garage, very limited finances, not as much time as I'd like and this will likely be a 'solo' build for the most part extended over many, many years.

So, on to the construction questions (since there are no preview plans) for the -12:

1. How much solid rivetting is required? (I'm ok with it, just don't have tools or a partner!)
2. Is all the solid rivetting in a 'single' area that can be tackled at once (I'm thinking I might be able to borrow tools, but can't keep borrowing over and over)
3. The fact that the 'g-limits' are not published bother me a little. Anyone know? I have no intention of aeros, but a known & published limit helps me understand the airframe construction a little more.
4. I'm interested in the UL Power engines. I've seen a couple of threads here about them in the -12, but haven't found any completed examples. Anyone have any info?
5. Any really good build logs, with photos you can recommend (in lieu of preview plans!)
6. How much work *requires* two people (not including 'big jobs' like fitting wings)
7. Is there much in the way of flush rivets on the skins (I'm thinking dimpling here!)?
8. Being shorter than your average bear, what's the deal with rudder pedal placement / adjustment?
9. Any jigs at all required? All I needed for the -8 was a wing 'jig', if you could call it even that, for when the skins were fitted
10. Are the control surfaces (all?/some?) mass balanced like on the -7/-8?
11. Dual brakes?

I'm sure I'll have more thoughts. The issue I have is that, so far I have sat in a CH650 and found out recently during pursuit of a microlight license that there is a 601 locally that I will be able to obtain a flight in. So far, I haven't found any local -12 either in build or flying, so I have no direct comparison.

I do know how good Vans kits are though, after my -8 build, and the support available in these forums. Although rare, the possibility of wing removal on the -12 for back-to-home maintenance is compelling too.

EDIT: told you there would be more thoughts. I've always loved the idea of an EFIS, but haven't seen them in action in simulated flight, I find I do actually prefer round dials. Therefore I'd like a combined dial / EFIS panel with separate GPS, AoA and auto-pilot. This also strays further from the 'single design' RV-12. Yeah, I know I can do it in NZ no problem, but a core draw card for the -12 is the 'complete design'. How far do I stray without official factory support? (rhetorical question; just my thoughts).

Thanks for any feedback.
Cheers. lue skies and tailwinds.

Jeff-
An answer to some of your questions ?

1. There are solid rivets used to assemble some partsof the RV-12 ? however they can be set with either a hand rivet squeezer or a pneumatic squeezer. There are no ?pounded rivets? necessary unless you elect to do so.

2. The solid rivets are used regularly throughout the various stages of construction ? you WILL NEED a hand rivet squeezer (or pneumatic) for riveting and also dimpling.

3. The RV12 Pilot Operating Handbook Operating Limitations section (page 3-4, download from Vansaircraft.com) states that the RV12?s g limit load factors are +4.0g and -2.0g that this is the Light Sport Category standard I believe.

4. There is a lovely UL flying that I have seen at Oshkosh. Perhaps Al or Brenda will chime in and give you more info on their build.

5. Lots of Blogs and builder sites just do a Google search there are a plethora of them ? mine is listed below.

6. Thus far I have only required a friend?s help just a hand full of times. Basically to carry the wings or flip them and to help roll the fuselage occasionally.

7. Yep!! flush rivets is what I?m doing ? read all about it on my Blog bellow. The most details of the flush rivets are discussed at the early days of the build.

8. Can?t help you with rudder pedal placement ? I?m a taller bear.

9. No jigs required ? most all the parts are CNC pre-drilled. There is some match drilling to do but no jigs are required.

Hope this helps ? Good luck with your decision.

JohnG has covered all the main points.

7. I can't recall any flush rivets in the skins, apart from a few nutplate rivets. There are plenty in the fuselage, but you just need a dimple die set in a hand riveter to do those.
8. Rudder pedals are not adjustable, although the seatback has a couple of alternative positions. Some builders have made pedal extensions. Others have installed shorter rudder cables.
10. Flaperons and stabilator are mass balanced.
11. Dual brakes are standard

I believe there are at least a couple of RV-12's in NZ. One has a Jab2200 in it as I recall, but I don't know where they're located.

Van's don't encourage RV-12 builders to stray from the plans, so don't expect much assistance in customising your plane. As I'm building AB(E), I've installed a few backup analogue instruments, but the D1000 is extremely capable. AOA can be installed for a few dollars. AP is a kit option from Vans. There really isn't much reason to deviate from the plans, unless you're determined to do things differently.

Don't know how close this is to you.

http://www.mbas.ac.nz/index.php/events/special-programmes/rv12-plane-project

Also a news channel video of this somewhere but can't find it now.

You can download and preview some of the plans here: http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/service-rv12.htm
I was a first time builder and built the RV-12 with almost no help. There were a few nuts and screws that made it a whole lot easier with two people, one inside of the fuselage and one under it. You will need lots of money because the plane goes together so quickly that you will need to buy the next kit. Since you live so far away, money can be saved on shipping by buying the complete kit at once. If you really want to save money, then you can buy the plans and raw materials for the Zenith. But then it will take you 10 or 15 years to build instead of 1 year for the RV-12. You can save money by putting an alternative engine in the RV-12. But the build time will be extended considerably.
Joe Gores

Hi Jeff,

I am in Auckland and have a RV12 which is flying. You are welcome to meet at Ardmore and I can show you what was involved.

There are four RV12's flying in NZ. Mine in Auckland. Two are in Whitianga, one of the Whitianga planes is the school project noted above. The fourth one is in Hastings. This is the only one that has been modified. It has a Viking engine and conventional instruments.

You just missed the annual Sport Aircraft fly in at Hastings last weekend. You would have been able to see three RV12's together there. The school one is not flying as they are doing the tank modification which was bad timing.

Also we flew a few formation passes in the Whitianga air show over Christmas.

Surprisingly there are not many other RV 12 projects underway in NZ that I am aware of. There is a school project in Nelson that is well underway. There is also a project in Christchurch in the early stages.

Cheers

Julian 120316

Thanks Guys, for all that. All very useful stuff and I will certainly follow up on the info. Having built an -8 fuse I am partial to the Vans. Money is certainly an issue for me, so a long-term build will be necessary regardless of what path I take. I believe (but don't *know* that the RV-12 has the edge in flying 'feel'. I'd like to try to get hands on with both. There is a local CH650B, but have been looking for a -12.

Julian: sent you an email after chatting with Bruce Cooke and would welcome the opportunity to view. Will be in touch.

Thanks Guys. A lot more research needed. Its a big call for me in my 'new' personal situation. Thanks.

Ironically, after my new wife saw my RV-8 Kitlog, she suggested perhaps a 'proper' plane after all might be better: of course, she doesn't have to go out and earn the money! ...and so far she is scared of flying in a small plane; admittedly, her only experience is a rag/tube 3-axis microlight on a bumpy day!

Thanks all.

Gentlemen,

Julian kindly took me flying yesterday and it was a great experience. His RV is wonderfully light on the controls, but not twitchy. Easy to point where you need it and maintain a stable attitude in cruise. Had reservations about the EFIS, but liked that too: very clear, easy to read and very functional. From an previous RV-8 builders point of view I had a good look around the airframe and a good chat with Julian; there are probably one or two things I might do differently, but not too much.

Anyway, it was a good flight. I still have the Zenith to look at. The first one I flew in is renowned for having a very heavy feel following the wing mods. I want to see if that is a common trait and there are two others I can trial locally, both factory built. Once I have done those flights, I will consider due diligence done.

In any case, I ordered the RV-12 preview CD from Vans last night and await excitedly for that to arrive. I've already started collecting tools so by the time I am ready I should be sorted in that department: it is still a couple of years away and I have promised her indoors that the house will be repainted and a family holiday done first. Watch this space (...but not too closely!)

Thanks for all the advice above. Very useful.

Jeff
Once you have flown the Zenith, could you post your comparison impressions comparing it to the RV-12?
John

I have a friend that has built 3 RVs - 8,9,10. Also a Glastar. He's an EAA tech advisor. He was asked by another guy to finish a 601 for him. His did. His observations on the comparison of parts, finishing, and overall engineering quality are pretty unprintable. He wouldn't fly it with the stock canopy locking mechanism.

I have flown 'a' Zenith, but like I mentioned it was really heavy on the controls and supposedly a 'not so good' example of type. I do plan to fly the other one or both of the others at an aero club about 45 mins away, but that will have to wait a few weeks due to other commitments. Will post back here when I have done that. I *could* post about the one I flew already, but 100% certain that would be fair. (it is a Zenith factory built European-build microlight/lsa model with a subsequent wing mod)