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P-mag inspections

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N941WR

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With a couple of hundred EICommanders in use around the world, we have built up a pretty good knowledge base of issues that I thought I would share.

1. Wire and install the P-mags as described in the manual.
2. When performing the preflight run-up, remove ship's powered from each ignition to test their internal generators. Grounding the P-mags only stops them from sparking but the electronics remain powered.
3. Yearly remove each P-mag and inspect the mag gear for wear. Replace the gear, if ANY wear is noticed.
4. Yearly remove each P-mag and try to wiggle the shaft. If any movement, other than rotational is noted, send it back for repair.


The P-mags are a good ignition system, and with proper inspections and maintenance, they should provide many years of dependable service.

Addition:
For those following this thread and going to OSH, please come sit in on my presentation.

Here are the details:
Elec Ignition Monitoring & Mgmt
Thursday, July 28 1:00 PM - 2:15 PM
Location: Workshop Classroom C
Presenter: William Repucci
 
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Bill,

Good point on this one:
2. When performing the preflight run-up, remove ship's powered from each ignition to test their internal generators. Grounding the P-mags only stops them from sparking but the electronics remain powered.

Can you think of any reason that the same switch couldn't be used for grounding and removing power? (Thinking of a DPDT).
 
I have dual p-mags on my rv-9a.

My setup consists of a three position switch.

Off is down and it shuts off the P-Mag/P Lead but leaves it powered up if the ship power is on
On - middle and it allows the P-Mag to operate normally
Up is a momentary switch and it kills the external power to the P-Mag.

My normal runup test is

Left Off then back on
Right ff then back on
Both to the test (up) position for 3-5 seconds.

-Dan
 
My normal runup test is

Left Off then back on
Right ff then back on
Both to the test (up) position for 3-5 seconds.

As written, I don't think this last step tests your pmags, since one of them could be working normally and self-generating power while the other one is not and the engine would keep right on running. You need to be running on only one pmag and test it by itself to verify it is capable of self-generating. If engine dies, it aint working...

erich
 
Bill,

Good point on this one:


Can you think of any reason that the same switch couldn't be used for grounding and removing power? (Thinking of a DPDT).

There maybe times that you want it powered but grounded, let's say during testing and configuration. There maybe times that you want to kill power but not ground it, let's say during run up. Just two examples that comes to mind.
 
With a couple of hundred EICommanders in use around the world, we have built up a pretty good knowledge base of issues that I thought I would share.

1. Wire and install the P-mags as described in the manual.
2. When performing the preflight run-up, remove ship's powered from each ignition to test their internal generators. Grounding the P-mags only stops them from sparking but the electronics remain powered.
3. Yearly remove each P-mag and inspect the mag gear for wear. Replace the gear, if ANY wear is noticed.
4. Yearly remove each P-mag and try to wiggle the shaft. If any movement, other than rotational is noted, send it back for repair.


The P-mags are a good ignition system, and with proper inspections and maintenance, they should provide many years of dependable service.

It would be helpful if there was an hourly recommendation rather than yearly, I have some customers that fly less than 50hr/yr.
 
Thoughts.....

I know of 1 person that had a 3 position switch as described. Switch was bad and he flew his entire phase 1 on 1 Pmag and didn't discover it for some time. Lucky guy.
Based on a recent post here on VAF I suggest u include making sure the cotter pin has 2 legs bent and, if needed, ONLY replace with a recommended cotter pin. NOT a mag cotter pin.
 
...
Can you think of any reason that the same switch couldn't be used for grounding and removing power? (Thinking of a DPDT).

I do have a three position switch and dual breakers.

My switch positions are:
Up - Ship's power & ungrounded
Middle - Unpowered & ungrounded
Down - Unpowered & grounded

The stereo plug provides power while the P-mags are grounded for setting TDC.

Here is my schematic:
Pmag%20wiring%203.jpg



Here is how I perform my preflight ignition check. It takes longer to say than perform:
pmag%20preflight.jpg


Is Bill not the un-offical factory spokes person for EMAG on VAF?
No, I am not. While a supporter of the P-mags, I have enjoyed learning a great deal about the ignitions and am an avid fan, I am not associated with Emag Ignitions.

It would be helpful if there was an hourly recommendation rather than yearly, I have some customers that fly less than 50hr/yr.
At this point, based on what I have seen with substandard timing gears, the occasional bad bearings, etc. I would still pull them every year, unless you have an EIC. I don't say that as a sales pitch but because the pilots we have worked with couldn't tell there was an issue without the EIC indicating something odd was happening. With the EIC, you could get away with pulling them every two years. It is all based on the pilot's risk tolerance. Flying without an EIC is kind of like flying without an oil temp and oil pressure gauge. You can do it, but I wouldn't.
 
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Bill,
On your above description of "my switch positions", shouldn't Down be

Unpowered & Grounded ?
 
Two, three position switches: (DPDT) and power is routed through two breakers.

Positions:
1. Down grounds P-leads.
2. Middle is run position.
3. Momentary up kills ship power.

Sequence:
1. Both in the middle for start.
2. At idle, kill one P lead, leave the other one in the normal run (middle) position.
3. Both back in the middle to normal run position.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 except using the opposite switch.
5. Increase ship power to 1000 RPM's
6. Kill one P lead (switch all the way down) and then kill ship power on the opposite switch (momentary, all the way up).
7. Both switches back to middle (normal run position)
8. Repeat steps 6 and 7 except with opposite switch.

*** If everything checks out, go fly and have fun.

*** Note, I also use the heavy duty Honeywell switches (2TL1-50)(N) This switch has a lockout in the "opposite keyway" position and is monetary in the "keyway" position. This is a safety feature that never allows me accidentally cut the switches off if I happen to bump them in flight. I have to lift the lever to actually put them in the down position and kill the P leads.

*** I also use the exact same switch for my main ship power/start. (Off/On/momentary start)
 
At this point, based on what I have seen with substandard timing gears, the occasional bad bearings, etc. I would still pull them every year, unless you have an EIC. I don't say that as a sales pitch but because the pilots we have worked with couldn't tell there was an issue without the EIC indicating something odd was happening. With the EIC, you could get away with pulling them every two years. It is all based on the pilot's risk tolerance. Flying without an EIC is kind of like flying without an oil temp and oil pressure gauge. You can do it, but I wouldn't.

Not exactly confidence inspiring, just saying.

Not providing an hourly inspection requirement but instead saying "inspect yearly" means to me we really have no clue how long these things will last.
 
Not exactly confidence inspiring, just saying.

Not providing an hourly inspection requirement but instead saying "inspect yearly" means to me we really have no clue how long these things will last.

This time interval is no different than Van's spar crack service bulletin. Don't standard mags have a yearly inspection requirement?
 
By there very nature, don't they get pulled, visually inspected, and reinstalled every annual?

No. They have timed inspections, overhauls and, when Slicks were much less expensive, a trash can time. 500 hours is the normal inspection time for mags, not mandatory for GA. But there are only a few moving parts, no electronics and much more hearty construction than pmags.

From what I understand it was the after market mag gears that are/were having issues with the metal. Not heat treated properly. The Lycoming gears have not had these issues. Emag was selling the after market gears.

I would think the pmags would be like an engine, timed first then to a specific date. Like Lycoming engines 2000 hours OR 12 years. Again, not mandatory for GA. A pmag inspection suggestion, for example, 100 hours OR 2 years. Then emag has it's factory recommended inspection times as well.

And of course, if you are using an EI Commander, as I've highly recommended, if you see any irregularities displayed on the EIC than it's definitely time to investigate and inspect.
 
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A P-Mag Perspective and Challenge

For awhile, I?ve hesitated posting this opinion piece / report / review, but for the sake of RV safety, discussion, and a P-Mag status check, I have decided to go ahead and post the following. I will say up front that I am not a P-Mag fan, and I question its basic design, performance, initial quality, and long-term reliability. On the other hand, I know that there are many RVers on this forum who are quite happy with their P-Mags and have flown them successfully for many hours. So I hereby challenge the many P-Mag fans to jump in and tell me where I?m wrong; if I?m wrong, or tell me if I might be right; partially anyway. So here goes:

Last summer at Chino, two new P-Mags didn?t do very well attached to a new Lycoming engine during its initial flight test phase: a coil failure in one; timing offset and a factory rewire for the other. The timing offset was detected by an EI Commander and then confirmed by a rotation check and the EICAD software. My personal opinion is that anyone running a P-Mag should have an EI Commander in the cockpit.

http://www.eicommander.com

http://www.emagair.com/eicad/

The good news is that E-Mag as a company was very supportive and responsive in diagnosing and fixing these problems. The bad news is that they happened in the first place; involving both P-Mags on one engine. I think everyone has been assuming that the P-Mag is over its initial quality and long-term reliability hurdles, but that appears to me to be a questionable assumption. I realize that my sample size is very small, but it is disturbing and unexpected. Also, P-Mag problems continue to be reported here and elsewhere. As I said before, I understand that many RVers are happy with their P-Mags, but there still seems to be a good case for caution.

Note: After being factory-fixed, the two mentioned P-Mags have now flown for over 120 hours without problems except for a very small, one-to-two degree, timing variation known to be common to P-Mags. Reportedly, this variation is mainly due to Lycoming gear lash at the magneto mounting location and secondarily due to P-Mag sensing and computing resolution. In my opinion, this small variation is not a big deal, though; regardless of the causes.

My Design Perspective: Bolting the ignition electronics directly to a hot, vibrating engine and then bathing the electronics with EMI from an immediately adjacent coil doesn?t seem like a good idea. Installing an alternator in the same small box is obviously a challenge. In other words, the P-Mag?s compact, single-box design comes with several design and environmental trade-offs in exchange for its simple, swap-out installation. When it?s working, the P-Mag does provide good starting, easy timing, and increased fuel efficiency due to the advance curve.

On the other hand, it is my personal opinion that any of the other electronic ignitions (Electroair, Lightspeed, EFII, etc.) are better in terms of design, performance, and reliability than the P-mag. These other ignitions deliver the same (usually better) starting, timing, and fuel efficiency advantages along with much higher spark energy for more complete combustion and improved performance. Due to their distributed installations whereby the individual components are located in environments that they are designed to easily tolerate, these ignitions are not as environmentally-challenged as the P-Mag. Granted, they require more work to install than a P-Mag, but it is relatively easy work. Also, I would think that anyone switching from a P-Mag to one of the other ignitions would see a noticeable performance improvement; particularly if it is a two-to-two swap-out or upgrading to a ?FADEC? system.

The more familiar I become with the P-Mag (or E-Mag as it is now called), the less I understand its popularity other than it ?seems? like a logical evolution of the standard mechanical magneto and is certainly an easy one-package swap-out. In my mind, if you are going to go with electronic ignition, do it right with the ignitions specifically designed to provide a new, higher level of performance and reliability; not a compacted, low-energy, and environmentally-challenged electronic ignition trying to mimic a standard magneto.

In Summary, My View (Only!) of P-Mag?s PROS & CONS:

PROS:

Everything is in one box. (Easiest installation of any electronic ignition. Essentially, a magneto swap-out.)

Self-Powered above approximately 1200 ? 1500 rpm.

Comfortable for magneto traditionalists. (Great marketing idea.)

Super-easy to time.

Good starting. (Initiates a quick, 5-pulse output to overcome its single-pulse low spark energy.)

Improves fuel efficiency.

Certification goal.

CONS:

Everything is in one box. (Operating environment concern about the long-term detrimental effects on the ignition electronics and other ignition components caused by engine temperature, vibration, and coil EMI/RFI.)

190 deg F temperature limitation. (Temperature strip attached to the box. Blast tube is mandatory.)

Dependent on aircraft power below approximately 900 rpm. Partially dependent on aircraft power up to approximately 1200 ? 1500 rpm. (Be observant when reducing power.)

Weak spark energy. (About half that of a standard magneto. Personally, I do not buy E-Mag?s enough-is-enough; less-is-more marketing. I believe the coil output has been limited in an attempt to mitigate the EMI/RFI issue.)

Questionable initial quality and long-term reliability. (Of course, I?m biased by what I saw, but I?m also aware that others have honestly reported their continuing P-Mag problems and concerns.)

Timing is not exact. (Varies slightly; not a big issue in my opinion, though.)

E-Mag seems to have dropped their original certification goal? (Apparently, certified engine/aircraft manufacturers are not buying the P-Mag concept?)

Thanks for listening. I hope this VAF thread helps improve our collective understanding of the P-Mag electronic ignition system. Fly Safe!
 
Bill,

Sorry but I could not disagree more.

As one that has owned and flown behind both LightSpeed and pMags I can testify to the merits of pMag over LightSpeed. A summary of 300 hours on a dual LightSpeed install:
- multiple product quality control failures on initial install, including wrong components on the LightSpeed board.
- Hard in flight failure.
- Another hard failure, this time on engine run up for take off.
- Failure of oil seals in the hall effect units.
- Failure of two spark plug coils.
- The worst aspect was the incredibly poor after the sales service from Klaus. I had to prove to him that these failures were not my fault.

Both LightSpeeds pulled and replaced with pMags. 600 hours now and they have been flawless. We once thought we had a problem and had Brad at pMag on the phone multiple times to work through the issue. It turn out the pMags were fine - the problem was in the fuel injection spider. You cannot beat pMags after the sale service.

I also offer that your point on higher spark energy is not backed up with facts. I do know that the pMags works great with NGK BR8ES plugs with gaps set at twice that of mag driven aircraft plugs. There is no shortage of spark energy. On performance, engine start is typically one blade and as to completeness of combustion I can run the engine way deep into LOP and it remains smooth.

I also refer you to eMag on the design steps taking to eliminate EMI/RFI. I never had an issue with this on my installs.

I also note the pro you site for LightSpeed having multiple components is actually a con. The fragile crank trigger with critical wire runs, the box that needs cooling, the coils that should last a lifetime but don't all add up to compounding risks - risks that, from personal experience, exceed my level of tolerance.

On your side comment about pMag dropping its goal of producing certified ignitions, you are wrong. They are well along with this on the 200 series. The certified four cylinder version will be based on the 200 series design as most of the certification investment is already made.

Carl
 
This discussion seems to come up a lot. The problem is that there are plenty of cases of problems with standard mags and other electronic ignition systems as well and no hard data by which we can compare one brand against the other. In particular, I note Scott Cards recent issue with his Lightspeed unit. If I recall correctly, Scott got fed up with his pmags some time ago and made the switch to Lightspeed. I think the major selling point of pmags has been their ability to self power as a hedge against a ship's electrical system failure. I too am concerned about their sensitivity to heat, but not sure I have heard of specific instances of failure that were definitely attributable to heat. Got a feeling I might hear about them now :) I know they had a past problem with an internal magnet working loose and causing problems, I assume from vibration and/or poor original design but their fix seems to have addressed that.

erich
 
...
(Operating environment concern about the long-term detrimental effects on the ignition electronics and other ignition components caused by engine temperature, vibration, and coil EMI/RFI.)

190 deg F temperature limitation. (Temperature strip attached to the box. Blast tube is mandatory.)
...

...
I too am concerned about their sensitivity to heat, but not sure I have heard of specific instances of failure that were definitely attributable to heat. Got a feeling I might hear about them now :)

As far as we know, the lowest temp IC chip is rated at 140*C (284*F). Above that and the old lead solder becomes an issue but no one uses that any more. (I don't know what Emag uses on the P-mags.)

I know they had a past problem with an internal magnet working loose and causing problems, I assume from vibration and/or poor original design but their fix seems to have addressed that.

erich

In the 10 years I have been working with the P-mags, I haven't seen one instance where the temperature has been an issue. I wouldn't worry about them

Yes, they had issues with the trigger magnets. In the original design they were epoxied to the shaft. Obviously that didn't work out so well. They are now secured with a fastener and there hasn't been a magnet failure that I know since they came out with this fix.

Also, "as far as I know', there hasn't been a software failure since they came out with version 40 (which we helped them find and resolve).

Just like traditional magnetos, they do have an occasional instance of infant mortality. These are few and far between, I believe but since I don't have access to Emags support records, I can only go by what I hear on this forum.

Brad at Emag once told me, "You do not have a proven product until you have 500 units installed by 500 amateurs in 500 amateur built airplanes." I am continually impressed at the creative ways people have found to install their ignitions (fuel systems, electronics, etc.). Thus it is difficult to say that all the issues are directly related to Emag. Heck, even my installation, posted earlier in this thread and on my website, is not recommended by Emag.
 
For those following this thread and going to OSH, please come sit in on my presentation.

Here are the details:
Elec Ignition Monitoring & Mgmt
Thursday, July 28 1:00 PM - 2:15 PM
Location: Workshop Classroom C
Presenter: William Repucci
 
Two, three position switches: (DPDT) and power is routed through two breakers.

Positions:
1. Down grounds P-leads.
2. Middle is run position.
3. Momentary up kills ship power.
...

I've mentioned this before, but I have found it necessary to kill ships power and force Pmag internal generator to maintain flight (eventually traced to my use of non resistor plugs - my bad). This is on 113 series, but might be applicable to the 114 as well.

Might want to reconsider the momentary switch.
 
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This topic seems to come up time and time again on the forum. Searching pmag / p-mag etc with bring up many threads and post about pmag failures and concerns. Yes, there are a number of failures and I believe many are never posted. And yes, there are some bad installations that go along with some failures. I've had multiple issues with my pmags along with many friends that have had issues with pmags... Then again I've read many posts from pilots that claim they've had no issues at all. I wonder how many have the means to monitor their pmags via the EI Commander or with Emag software.

I've been very vocal on this forum about the problems with pmags, I've posted pages of data and graphs. I agree with Bill Palmer about the weak spark, weak performance pmags give and timing issues. My data proves this, it's not speculation. I receive PM's from other pmag users asking for help with their pmag problems. I know Bill (EIC) also gets plenty of users asking him for help, too.

Pmags for the most part do "Work" but they are far from consistent and far from problem free. They are a easiest to install and setup. They do have backup power that does work. They also have a tendency raise the CHT's a lot, which can be remedied by removing any advance past 26 degs (losing any timing performance you would have gotten).

I don't want to rewrite everything that has already been posted and discussed on countless threads... But doing some searching and reading should give anyone interested in pmags plenty of food for thought.
 
I've mentioned this before, but I have found it necessary to kill ships power and force Pmag internal generator to maintain flight (eventually traced to my use of non resistor plugs - my bad). This is on 113 series, but might be applicable to the 114 as well.

Might want to reconsider the momentary switch.
To clarify, the 113 and 114 P-mags operate differently, so this is a bit of a challenge.
The 113's run off of ship's power all the time and only reverted to internal power when ship's power was not available. The 114 series P-mag run off of their internal power as soon as they generate enough electricity to keep the P-mags alive. This cut over typically happens at around 800 RPM. If you look at your tach on approach, you will see your engine is spinning faster than that and doesn't slow down until you are on the runway.

This topic seems to come up time and time again on the forum. Searching pmag / p-mag etc with bring up many threads and post about pmag failures and concerns. Yes, there are a number of failures and I believe many are never posted. And yes, there are some bad installations that go along with some failures. I've had multiple issues with my pmags along with many friends that have had issues with pmags... Then again I've read many posts from pilots that claim they've had no issues at all. I wonder how many have the means to monitor their pmags via the EI Commander or with Emag software.

I've been very vocal on this forum about the problems with pmags, I've posted pages of data and graphs. I agree with Bill Palmer about the weak spark, weak performance pmags give and timing issues. My data proves this, it's not speculation. I receive PM's from other pmag users asking for help with their pmag problems. I know Bill (EIC) also gets plenty of users asking him for help, too.

Pmags for the most part do "Work" but they are far from consistent and far from problem free. They are a easiest to install and setup. They do have backup power that does work. They also have a tendency raise the CHT's a lot, which can be remedied by removing any advance past 26 degs (losing any timing performance you would have gotten).

I don't want to rewrite everything that has already been posted and discussed on countless threads... But doing some searching and reading should give anyone interested in pmags plenty of food for thought.

it is unfortunate when a thread is started to help people and becomes a bash the vendor fest.

I disagree with much of the post above. Much of the CHT's issues we have seen with the P-mags are the result of questionable installation, timing configurations, etc. While you can adjust the initial timing of the P-mags by reducing the initial advance angle, it does not result in the engine "loosing any timing performance you would have gotten." In fact, by setting the timing to the proper angle, you might pick up some performance. The P-mags (or any EI) should bring the timing down to match that of a standard magneto and only advanced the timing as the power falls off, such as in cruise. That is where you see the real benefit. If you stay in the pattern doing touch and goes, your fuel burn will be VERY close to that of a standard magneto because the EI will put the timing at the same value as the mag.

The spark intensity discussion seems to be similar to the primer wars. In our low RPM application, it doesn't apply. If you light the fire with a match or blow torch, it is burning and propagates just as fast, regardless of how it is lit. No one has yet been able to explain this argument to me. The fuel-air mixture in a “typical” gasoline engine burns at a rate of 16.5 m/s regardless of how it is lit.
 
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The fuel-air mixture in a ?typical? gasoline engine burns at a rate of 16.5 m/s regardless of how it is lit.

Not true at all. Flame speed varies with many many factors but especially with mixture strength which is why we want adjustable timing when running LOP to re-position PCP for maximum energy extraction from the fuel.
 
Not true at all. Flame speed varies with many many factors but especially with mixture strength which is why we want adjustable timing when running LOP to re-position PCP for maximum energy extraction from the fuel.

The world "typical" in my sentence should have been your key. Flame burn rates change with compression, density, piston & cylinder head design, etc.

Perhaps, I should have included the words, "at standard atmospheric pressure" or some such.

Low density fuel air mixtures burn slower and contain less energy per volume, thus you can advance the timing more, which the P-mags do, and do well.

The point is, once the fire is lit, it burns at a standard rate and doesn't really care how it was lit in our slow turning large cylinder engines.
 
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The world "typical" in my sentence should have been your key. Flame burn rates change with compression, density, piston & cylinder head design, etc.

Perhaps, I should have included the words, "at standard atmospheric pressure" or some such.

Low density fuel air mixtures burn slower and contain less energy, thus you can advance the timing more, which the P-mags do, and do well.

The point is, once the fire is lit, it burns at a standard rate and doesn't really care how it was lit in our slow turning large cylinder engines.

Agree with your last sentence only.

Major factors on burn rates are AFR- (as much as 40%), turbulence, squish.

Does P-mag have a standard provision to advance timing when running LOP? This is a fairly big deal, worth quite a few knots as we've seen from Toobuilder's flight testing with ignition timing.
 
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How does Mike's custom setup know you are running LOP?

The two inputs the P-mag uses to determine timing are RPM and Manifold Pressure. How would they know if you are running LOP?

The P-mags timing curve is not perfect and cannot be adjusted in increments of RPM like a tunable auto based system can be. However, as a reliable, plug and play system, it is head and shoulders above a one off custom system or one that is made up of multiple parts that depends on multiple connectors and only operates on shops power.

Talk about thread drift...

If you are 50? off of peak, how can the ignition system know if you are ROP or LOP unless it is also tied into the fuel flow? More than once I have run my mixture to or past peak and then pulled it back to ROP. Other times I have continued to lean it and run LOP.
 
How does Mike's custom setup know you are running LOP?

The two inputs the P-mag uses to determine timing are RPM and Manifold Pressure. How would they know if you are running LOP?

The P-mags timing curve is not perfect and cannot be adjusted in increments of RPM like a tunable auto based system can be. However, as a reliable, plug and play system, it is head and shoulders above a one off custom system or one that is made up of multiple parts that depends on multiple connectors and only operates on shops power.

Talk about thread drift...

If you are 50? off of peak, how can the ignition system know if you are ROP or LOP unless it is also tied into the fuel flow? More than once I have run my mixture to or past peak and then pulled it back to ROP. Other times I have continued to lean it and run LOP.

Pilot just leaned the mixture so he knows it's LOP. He then throws the advance switch and watches the knots come back. Is that something P-mag can do?

Head and shoulders above other systems? Quite a big statement there. I don't want to dilute this thread any more so I won't specifically comment here on that but there are certain manufacturers who have far more flight time and far less failures/ problems on their products than some others...

I think it's fair to say that all EI systems have their plus and minus points. It's up the buyer to weigh those factors in his buying decision.
 
Pilot just leaned the mixture so he knows it's LOP. He then throws the advance switch and watches the knots come back. Is that something P-mag can do?
No they cannot and it is probably a good thing they don't. I can see someone going to full power without resetting the switch and toasting their engine.

Head and shoulders above other systems? Quite a big statement there. I don't want to dilute this thread any more so I won't specifically comment here on that but there are certain manufacturers who have far more flight time and far less failures/ problems on their products than some others...
I stand by my statement. Had the other systems you hint at been introduced during the hay day of the Internet, we would know more about their initial teething problems. What I Would Like to know is the failure rate of the various EI's compared to traditional mags. I think we would find that when the ignitions are installed properly, they are more reliable than magnetos.

I think it's fair to say that all EI systems have their plus and minus points. It's up the buyer to weigh those factors in his buying decision.
I agree 100%!
 
No they cannot and it is probably a good thing they don't. I can see someone going to full power without resetting the switch and toasting their engine...


Not likely. Going to "full power" on CPI will retard timing if you follow conventional guidelines. Assuming the advance switch is set to a reasonable level of about 3 degrees, the resulting "full power" timing will land right at the timing value found on the data plate.

In other words, if you screw up and forget how to operate the airplane controls properly, you are no worse off than with a conventional magneto. The penalty for incorrectly manipulating the fuel selector is much worse.
 
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it is unfortunate when a thread is started to help people and becomes a bash the vendor fest. I disagree with much of the post above. Much of the CHT's issues we have seen with the P-mags are the result of questionable installation said:
Excuse me? I don't see anything I wrote to be bashing any vendor. Since when is hard data and facts bashing? Bill, you know me far better than that. And you also know that everything I post is right and very well documented.

There are endless research documents available at the touch of anyone's fingers from MSD, Jacobs, Mallory, Accel, Champion, GM, Ford, etc, etc. The research on how ignitions work and how to get the most performance from them is well documented and consistent. Weak spark does not equal performance. The reason emag was able to install a small alternator in the pmag was because it only needed to produce a few amps to run the pmag. It only needs a few amps because the pmag can only produce a weak spark as only a few amps on a small Ford economy car coil could produce. EI's like ElectroAir (example) require a 10 amp circuit to operate, it needs these amps to produce a far hotter longer duration spark. This equals performance and efficiency. If there was no difference in how fuel is lit and burns then you wouldn't notice any RPM drop during a mag check. Obviously 2 plugs burn fuel better than 1 plug. When installing a good EI you notice much less RPM drop during a mag check, obviously a hotter longer duration spark on each plug burns the fuel more efficiently.

There is no doubt that the pmag is the best "Plug and Play" EI out there. It's easy to install and sets up fast. And for the most part it works, if it doesn't fail, but by no means is the pmag a performance ignition.

This thread has gotten way off topic as it does almost every time pmags are in the OP headline. Pmags are very controversial. Some love them and some not so much. I guess this all comes down to what each pilot's experience has been with them and what each pilot's expectations are.

Pilots will continue to buy them, some will like them and some won't. Some will understand how they work and some won't. Some will be disappointed and some won't. Some pmags will fail and some won't. And when it's all said and done pmags will remain controversial. I wish all these pilots the best of luck.
 
Not likely. Going to "full power" on CPI will retard timing. Assuming the advance switch is set to a reasonable level of about 3 degrees, the resulting "full power" timing will land right at the timing value found on th data plate.

What's the advantage of this setup over something like the P-mags or Light Speed setup that sets the timing bases on MAP and RPM? Low power settings and the timing comes down 10 degrees (or more) then during high power operations.
 
What's the advantage of this setup over something like the P-mags or Light Speed setup that sets the timing bases on MAP and RPM? Low power settings and the timing comes down 10 degrees (or more) then during high power operations.

The advantage of CPI is that you can completely optimize the ROP ignition curve for MP and RPM (in itself an advantage over the locked out curve on other ignitions), PLUS you also get to optimize LOP settling. With CPI you can cover almost any practical operating condition.
 
Magic Word: Inspections

I sure don't mind discussions of all the various aspects of this or other ignition systems, but they ought to be in other threads.

Frankly, I'm more interested in the inspections and things I can do to maintain the P-Mags and keep them reliable than I am in the various ignition design possibilities or possible experimenter's remapping of the advance or something.

Any chance we can keep this thread to the OP's original intention?

Thanks!

Dave
RV-3B building, O-320 with dual P-Mags
 
I agree on the thread drift however, when someone posts dubious or incorrect information on any thread, expect to be called to task for it by someone who knows better.

I'll leave this one be for now. Perhaps we can start some other threads for discussing the technical aspects of EIs.
 
I agree on the thread drift however, when someone posts dubious or incorrect information on any thread, expect to be called to task for it by someone who knows better.

I'll leave this one be for now. Perhaps we can start some other threads for discussing the technical aspects of EIs.

That was pretty harsh. What was "dubious" or "incorrect"?
 
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