What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

I got ramp checked

Log Books

I keep my original medical certificate taped in the front of my log book and always make sure my log book is with me.

If I get ramp checked this will mean also showing my current log book.

What are the disadvantages/perils of this?
 
...the bad day, continued.....

Not that it's THE most important part of the process, but should you butt heads with the feds, and have ANY kind of paperwork generated, how does this affect your next license renewal, or how you are treated by your insurance company?
...anyone have real life experience with this?

( I know the line on my insurance app. that asks if any claims, incidents or enforcement actions in the past year, gives me pause to think....'what if I did?')
 
Just to be correct on the nomenclature, it is a certificate, not a license.
 
Restroom-Etiquette-Sign-NHE-15934_300.gif

The FAA Motto

And when the paperwork weighs the same as the aircraft, you're getting close!
 
I keep my original medical certificate taped in the front of my log book and always make sure my log book is with me.

If I get ramp checked this will mean also showing my current log book.

What are the disadvantages/perils of this?

Disadvantage:
You might not be current for passenger carrying. If your not, its a pretty simple check for the fed to find out if you hand over your book.
Advantage:
None
 
Very true, LE does not do "ramp checks" in the FAA sense. CBP does a "Border Search" when you arrive from, or depart to, a foreign location. This is a very different situation than a "traffic stop" with an entirely different set of rules.
I don't want to get too nit-picky but this is important. A legitimate CPB border crossing check does operate under a different set of rules (as contrasted with what they were doing earlier in this year which generated much publicity) but it is still more akin to a traffic stop than not. As in, you are not free to leave, it is being conducted by people with badges, guns and the ability to deprive you of your liberty (ie. handcuffs, jail) and who are looking into potential criminal activities, not just FAA administrative violations.

A traffic stop is not the perfect analogy, but it is one that most people are familiar with so I chose it. An investigative detention (Terry stop) is a better analogy but less familiar to most people.
 
Disadvantage:
You might not be current for passenger carrying. If your not, its a pretty simple check for the fed to find out if you hand over your book.
Advantage:
None


It's a storage issue, the pilots certificate fits in my wallet, the original medical certificate doesn't seem to fit anywhere easily...:)
 
Disadvantage:
You might not be current for passenger carrying. If your not, its a pretty simple check for the fed to find out if you hand over your book.
Advantage:
None

Advantage: Assuming you follow the law, you look like a cooperative pilot, and lessen the chance of a follow up visit.
 
It's a storage issue, the pilots certificate fits in my wallet, the original medical certificate doesn't seem to fit anywhere easily...:)

Me too. Plus my wallet already has way too much stuff in it. I have one of those nylon cover things from Sportys that holds my certificates in little transparent pouches, my logbook in a bigger nylon pouch. And another pouch for the ASRS forms.
 
Advantage: Assuming you follow the law, you look like a cooperative pilot, and lessen the chance of a follow up visit.

not true, you are not required to have a logbook in your possession, nor are you required to produce it unless requested, and that can be at a later date.

the law states, "you have the right to remain silent", its the best piece of advice that you can take. never give the government more documentation than you are legally required to provide.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
not true, you are not required to have a logbook in your possession, nor are you required to produce it unless requested, and that can be at a later date.

the law states, "you have the right to remain silent", its the best piece of advice that you can take. never give the government more documentation than you are legally required to provide.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB

But, if you have it in your hand because the medical certificate is taped to the inside cover do you have to show anything in it to the inspector?
 
But, if you have it in your hand because the medical certificate is taped to the inside cover do you have to show anything in it to the inspector?

In a word - yes, if they ask - and they are likely to ask you to show them the last flight review and quite possibly to show takeoffs and landings for currency (plus additional items if operating IFR). See http://fsims.faa.gov/WDocs/8900.1/V06 Surveillance/Chapter 01/06_001_004.htm . I would think an inspector might become really curious if you showed him the medical but declined to let him look at the logbook.

See (in the above cite) 6-101 D 4 - the words are "if available." Private pilot and higher certificates do not require the logbook to be in the aircraft so I normally recommend that they not be carried. If you have them and mislead the FAA inspector, that's a big deal if it's discovered. It's just simpler, all the way around, not to have the logbooks with you.

Dan
 
remain silent

I have to jump in once more here... and from experience, not from the theoretical constitutional lawyer perspective.
Yes, you can remain silent. And by doing so, you create an adversarial situation. I am not suggesting that you incriminate yourself. Just answer their simple questions. If it goes beyond that, you might want to advise them you are done conversing. Trust me, the FAA will look at you in a more cooperative, and constructive light... if you are reasonable. If you play lawyer right off the bat, you will then be paying twice. Once for their lawyers and again for yours.
(you don't have anything to hide..... correct?)
Bear in mind, nearly everything we possibly do these days is caught on camera.. or recorded from the the radio.
 
OK,

Back to a previous question.

What's the best way to carry your original medical with you?

The Pilot's certificate fits in my wallet... but what to do with the medical cert...
 
OK,

Back to a previous question.

What's the best way to carry your original medical with you?

The Pilot's certificate fits in my wallet... but what to do with the medical cert...

I fold mine and keep it in my wallet with my certificate.
 
There's something I'm not understanding here. I just got a new medical a few months ago and after folding twice, it fits in the slot in my wallet right behind my pilot certificate like it always has.

What am I missing?
 
There's something I'm not understanding here. I just got a new medical a few months ago and after folding twice, it fits in the slot in my wallet right behind my pilot certificate like it always has.

What am I missing?

If you're missing something Mel, I'm missing it too - I do the exact same thing.
 
There's something I'm not understanding here. I just got a new medical a few months ago and after folding twice, it fits in the slot in my wallet right behind my pilot certificate like it always has.

What am I missing?

+3. I don't understand the issue either.
 
I have to jump in once more here... and from experience, not from the theoretical constitutional lawyer perspective.
Yes, you can remain silent. And by doing so, you create an adversarial situation. I am not suggesting that you incriminate yourself. Just answer their simple questions. If it goes beyond that, you might want to advise them you are done conversing. Trust me, the FAA will look at you in a more cooperative, and constructive light... if you are reasonable. If you play lawyer right off the bat, you will then be paying twice. Once for their lawyers and again for yours.
(you don't have anything to hide..... correct?)

I answer no questions that are not *required* to be answered, regardless of the agency (and *particularly* with police agencies). You're required to show airworthiness, registration, license, medical and photo id, and W&B. That's all I'd show, and I'd answer no questions, politely, and refuse to allow access to the interior of the plane (i.e., I don't consent to searches). You can do this politely, and still make the point that you're exercising your rights while obeying the law.

When it comes to any LE agency...they get ONLY what is required (license, passport, whatever it is), and answers ONLY to questions that are required to be answered (purpose of travel when re-entering the country, for example). I don't talk to police when I'm the subject of any investigation, even a traffic stop. I don't engage in the "where are you going? where have you been?" sorts of interaction. Nothing. And under NO circumstances do I EVER consent to a search. ((ETA: This statement doesn't make sense after it was edited by a mod...I'll rephrase) And yes, the TSA nonsense for commercial flights cheeses me off...just security theater. Another reason I LOVE my RV :) ).

They're not your friends, they're not there to "help you out", they're there to find a reason to detain and/or arrest you.

IANAL, but I do know that your refusal to answer questions CANNOT be used to "create" reasonable suspicion. You are exercising your Constitutional rights. They may not like it, but that's just too bad.

Bear in mind, nearly everything we possibly do these days is caught on camera.. or recorded from the the radio.

I'd turn a cellphone camera on the instant someone approached me and said "I'm from..." :)
 
Last edited:
Ramp Check

I was ramp checked at The Air Force Museum in Dayton, Oh.. I was in my L-19 and the inspector walked up to my airplane and ask for the paper work. I asked him for his 110A or his badge and he didn't have one:). I told him to get away from my airplane, as far as I was concerned he was a terrorist. His supervisor was about 10 ft. behind him. If you have someone with proper credentials I will show them to that inspector. ALWAYS, ALWAYS ASK FOR AN I.D. This worked out well and I bet that new inspector never forgets to show his identification.
 
I was ramp checked at The Air Force Museum in Dayton, Oh.. I was in my L-19 and the inspector walked up to my airplane and ask for the paper work. I asked him for his 110A or his badge and he didn't have one:). I told him to get away from my airplane, as far as I was concerned he was a terrorist. His supervisor was about 10 ft. behind him. If you have someone with proper credentials I will show them to that inspector. ALWAYS, ALWAYS ASK FOR AN I.D. This worked out well and I bet that new inspector never forgets to show his identification.

Report him at 866/GA-SECURE. Sounds like "suspicious" activity to me.
 
Last edited:
All you need in the plane is AROW.
Airworthiness
Registration
Operating Limitations
Weight and balance

All you need as Pilot is your license.

They can ask for what they want, but you aren't required to carry them.
 
PLUS......

All you need in the plane is AROW.
Airworthiness
Registration
Operating Limitations
Weight and balance

All you need as Pilot is your license, a photo ID, and current medical if required.

They can ask for what they want, but you aren't required to carry them.

A couple of additional items.
 
Last edited:
And (since this IS a Vans Forum) THE OPERATING LIMITATIONS...which I need to find a good place to stash them in the aircraft.
 
Basic Med

Now that we have a Basic Med and the copy is in your logbook, I assume we don't need to keep that in the aircraft.
Jerry
 
Basic Med?

I switched to Basic Med this year, and the "certificate" is attached to my logbook, which I don't carry in the plane. That info is online, though, so the FAA (or anyone) could check. I carry my Repairman's Certificate in the plane.
 
I switched to Basic Med this year, and the "certificate" is attached to my logbook, which I don't carry in the plane. That info is online, though, so the FAA (or anyone) could check. I carry my Repairman's Certificate in the plane.

Since the repairmans certificate is only needed for the annual condition inspection, there seems little reason to carry it around with you.
 
Since the repairmans certificate is only needed for the annual condition inspection, there seems little reason to carry it around with you.

Unless you need to do maintenance on the road somewhere, and a "do-gooder" tries to interfere...
 
Unless you need to do maintenance on the road somewhere, and a "do-gooder" tries to interfere...

Repairman certificate has nothing to do with maintenance.
Only required for the condition inspection.
 
Repairman certificate has nothing to do with maintenance.
Only required for the condition inspection.
OK, well, you may know that. I may know that. The local A&P who is irate enough to come over while you are pulling a major component off of your plane may not. It may at least be enough to get someone to pay attention to what reasons you may have for doing something (s)he may think is a violation. Just thinking out loud here.
 
If an FAA type is about to cite you for anything, simply ask him to show you the regulation he is citing you for. He is required to do that.

There is no regulation anywhere that prohibits anyone doing maintenance on an experimental amateur-built aircraft.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Since the repairmans certificate is only needed for the annual condition inspection, there seems little reason to carry it around with you.
So would it be "legal" for me to...say...change a propeller on my aircraft without a Repairman's Certificate?
 
So would it be "legal" for me to...say...change a propeller on my aircraft without a Repairman's Certificate?

Yep! Just follow you operating limitations. You must place the aircraft back into phase I for testing if the replacement is not the same make and model as the one removed.
And submit a new 8130-6 to FAA if changing of a fixed pitch from or to a controllable propeller.
 
Anybody know for sure about shrinking and laminating, or does it depend on who you ask in the FAA??

The easiest solution is to just keep your required documents in a zip-loc bag, and keep that in a pocket in the plane. It protects them and leaves them easily accessible for inspection. Airworthiness, registration, and any not often used cheat sheets for avionics are in mine.
 
Beat this dog to death..

Yep! Just follow you operating limitations. You must place the aircraft back into phase I for testing if the replacement is not the same make and model as the one removed.
And submit a new 8130-6 to FAA if changing of a fixed pitch from or to a controllable propeller.

When will experimental pilots get this right? You can do anything, anytime, anywhere except the condition inspection without a repairman certificate.
 
The easiest solution is to just keep your required documents in a zip-loc bag, and keep that in a pocket in the plane. It protects them and leaves them easily accessible for inspection. Airworthiness, registration, and any not often used cheat sheets for avionics are in mine.

Well, strictly speaking, I think the A/W certificate is supposed to be visible.
 
Yep! Just follow you operating limitations. You must place the aircraft back into phase I for testing if the replacement is not the same make and model as the one removed.
And submit a new 8130-6 to FAA if changing of a fixed pitch from or to a controllable propeller.

8130-6.... would that apply to going from a Ground adjustable whirlwind to a Catto?
 
Yep! Just follow you operating limitations. You must place the aircraft back into phase I for testing if the replacement is not the same make and model as the one removed.
And submit a new 8130-6 to FAA if changing of a fixed pitch from or to a controllable propeller.

Wee detail (of which I'm sure Mel is aware); Many of the older operating limitations out there (like those issued in the 90's for example) included a requirement to inform the FAA and receive a response prior to resuming flight after a "major change". Most assumed it meant a letter to your local FSDO (and a wait for a written response), but there was confusion/variation all around. The provision was removed from later wording, but if it is in yours, well, as Mel said....just follow your operating limitations.
 
Exactly....

Wee detail (of which I'm sure Mel is aware); Many of the older operating limitations out there (like those issued in the 90's for example) included a requirement to inform the FAA and receive a response prior to resuming flight after a "major change". Most assumed it meant a letter to your local FSDO (and a wait for a written response), but there was confusion/variation all around. The provision was removed from later wording, but if it is in yours, well, as Mel said....just follow your operating limitations.

As Dan says, op lims have changed over time. Regardless of when yours were issued, they are the controlling document. If you prefer a later version, then you must have yours amended. Until that time, you are bound to the op lims issued to your aircraft.
Is that confusing enough?
 
My original ops limits didn?t provide the ability to fly IFR. Called up the FSDO, sent in the paperwork and had new docs in 2 weeks. Painless process for anyone else interested in updating theirs.
 
8130-6.... would that apply to going from a Ground adjustable whirlwind to a Catto?

No! Ground adjustable and fixed pitch are regarded as the same in this instance.
Only when changing to or from an in-flight controllable propeller do you need to submit a new 8130-6.
 
What changed?

My original ops limits didn?t provide the ability to fly IFR. Called up the FSDO, sent in the paperwork and had new docs in 2 weeks. Painless process for anyone else interested in updating theirs.

Did you add any equipment to make it IFR capable and then wanted the ops limits changed or was it always IFR capable but just limited on the paperwork?
 
50+ years...never been ramp checked, although I did have a buddy several years ago who was an FAA safety inspector.

Do those guys have to provide credentials? I'd be pretty reluctant to let someone go through my paperwork unless I was certain of their bona fides....
 
50+ years...never been ramp checked, although I did have a buddy several years ago who was an FAA safety inspector.
Do those guys have to provide credentials? I'd be pretty reluctant to let someone go through my paperwork unless I was certain of their bona fides....

Yes They DO!

Only time I've been ramp checked is when I was flying under a waiver at an airshow.
 
Back
Top