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G5 attitude indicator has a mind of its own.

zilik

VAF Moderator
I recently installed a G5 in my aging panel to replace a failing vacuum AI. The G5 was an easy choice as a G3X upgrade is in the future.

Installation was straight forward and easy as was the calibration. A test flight has me scratching my head.

On normal takeoff, straight out with gentle climb the G5 "aligned" itself many times. Granted the air was not smooth but I did not expect the constant "alignment". After about 5 minutes it seemed to have settled down and would show level flight.

Turns about a point, climbs, descents and S-turns all caused the unit to display a descending left turn with the occasional climbing turn after returning to level flight.

The slip/skid ball is not very sensitive. A full skid moves the ball very little while the analog slip/skid in the Trio is all the way to the left.

I turned everything off to see if electrical gremlins were causing the problem. No difference that I could notice.

Needless to say the AI is not to be trusted in this particular instrument. I returned to base, reset to factory defaults and went through the setup and calibration once again. The results were no different. the AI has a mind of its own.

I guess the next step is to upgrade the firmware and try again.
 
If you have not updated the firmware, do that first. There have been many revs to the firmware since release and one cannot assume that a new unit will have the lastest preinstalled.

I would give that a shot and try again.

My G5 is rock solid even while performing some test that can drive poor performing AHRS's crazy.
 
You funny Dye. I'm off to Staples for the required Micro-SD card for a software upgrade.
 
Brantel,

Can you expand on your testing of your other poor performing AHRSs as noted below?

My G5 is rock solid even while performing some test that can drive poor performing AHRS's crazy.[/QUOTE]
 
If you have not updated the firmware, do that first. There have been many revs to the firmware since release and one cannot assume that a new unit will have the lastest preinstalled.

I would give that a shot and try again.

My G5 is rock solid even while performing some test that can drive poor performing AHRS's crazy.

Armed with my macbook I headed to the airport. I updated the software and went for a flight. Loops, rolls, climbs, descents and stalls and the G5 performed flawlessly. Time to land and call it good.

A 5 mile straight it and the G5 started to roll in a left bank. Once I touched down the bank indication continued until I turned off the runway. Darn.

I pulled it and brought it home. Hopefully a call to Garmin in the morning will set it straight.
 
Brantel,

Can you expand on your testing of your other poor performing AHRSs as noted below?

My G5 is rock solid even while performing some test that can drive poor performing AHRS's crazy.

Mostly simple wringing them out....

Some things I like to do:

Turn them upside down for an extended period to see what happens, same for turning them 90°.
Sustained 60° + banked turns and then roll wings level.
Sustained high pitch then level out.
Observe how far behind the RV7 roll rate they get if at all, do they saturate or not with mild aerobatics, if they do, do they require realignment?
How fast they realign in various conditions IE: Vibration, speeds, pitch and roll angles etc.
Fly around with variable amounts of yaw with no roll and see what happens to the pitch and roll indications.
See how much yaw couples with roll on the ground by S turning.

Stuff like that. Not very scientific.

The poor performers are typically what I call "consumer" AHRS units that are not really intended to be a primary source of attitude information.

Since my testing is very personal in scope/intent and not very scientific, I will refrain from making any claims good or bad against any makes and models other than to say my G5, GSU73 and GSU25 have been rock solid units.

I am confident that TeamX will take care of Gary. I would imagine that Steve has already contacted him offline. That just just the way they roll....
 
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Hopefully a call to Garmin in the morning will set it straight.
Hi Gary,

Any feedback from Garmin yet? I've got a G5 in my panel waiting to be flown and your experience has me interested - not concerned yet, just interested.

Dave
 
I had similar issues with my G5, until I updated the software. Since then (about 50 flight hours) I've only had one issue with it losing its mind, and that was in sustained moderate turbulence after about 20 minutes. I climbed high above the turbulence and it realigned itself a few minutes later.
 
Hello Gary,

We haven't seen you show up in the G3Xpert Inbox so we can provide assistance, but maybe you are discussing with someone on the phone.

Contact us by phone or email if you need our help.

Thanks,
Steve
 
Since then (about 50 flight hours) I've only had one issue with it losing its mind, and that was in sustained moderate turbulence after about 20 minutes. I climbed high above the turbulence and it realigned itself a few minutes later.

I understand that the OP probably is having a problem with his particular unit that will hopefully get fixed, but this post makes me wonder how reliable the G5s are. I am on the verge of equipping my -6A for IFR use, including a GTN650 and G5 as CDI and backup AI.

The whole point of IFR is to rely on what your instruments are telling you. If I'm in the soup and lose my EFIS, I sure don't want my backup AI to go nuts if I also encounter some turbulence.

Do these really do this? What is the experience of others using a G5? If a G5 is going to "lose its mind", of what value is it? Might a Dynon D10 or GRT mini be more reliable?
 
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Your question cannot be answered by the facts available to the public.

Stuff as sophisticated as integrated ADAHRS units are going to have a statistical failure rate. No such thing as failure proof.

I would say that you can find failure examples of every AHRS make and model out there. Especially the ones most of us can afford.

The G5 has been very popular as best I can tell. At one point they were selling faster than they could make them. Not seen many other reports of issues.....
 
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I had similar issues with my G5, until I updated the software. Since then (about 50 flight hours) I've only had one issue with it losing its mind, and that was in sustained moderate turbulence after about 20 minutes. I climbed high above the turbulence and it realigned itself a few minutes later.

I've been on IFR/IMC flights with >20mins of moderate turbulence. If that's enough to tumble a G5, then I question whether it is a viable backup unit.
 
Your question cannot be answered by the facts available to the public.

Stuff as sophisticated as integrated ADAHRS units are going to have a statistical failure rate. No such thing as failure proof.

I would say that you can find failure examples of every AHRS make and model out there. Especially the ones most of us can afford.

The G5 has been very popular as best I can tell. At one point they were selling faster than they could make them. Not seen many other reports of issues.....

My question, or at least my intention behind the question, is not about unit failures or statistical failure rates. It is questioning the concept that a properly working, up-to-date, non-failed unit will, or even CAN, tumble due to nothing more than sustained turbulence. If so, as ChiefPilot also said, then I don't see any value of it as a backup unit.

My subsequent question was wondering if, again in non-failed, up-to-date, properly working units, the GRT Mini or Dynon D10 might be less susceptible, in actual practice in users' experiences, to something as simple as turbulence causing them to tumble or otherwise, even for short periods, fail to properly display.
 
Don't know but my data point of one does not have issues with the environment you are concerned about.
 
My question, or at least my intention behind the question, is not about unit failures or statistical failure rates. It is questioning the concept that a properly working, up-to-date, non-failed unit will, or even CAN, tumble due to nothing more than sustained turbulence. If so, as ChiefPilot also said, then I don't see any value of it as a backup unit.

My subsequent question was wondering if, again in non-failed, up-to-date, properly working units, the GRT Mini or Dynon D10 might be less susceptible, in actual practice in users' experiences, to something as simple as turbulence causing them to tumble or otherwise, even for short periods, fail to properly display.

The important point is to understand that when you do your failure mode analysis for your airplane, you have to assume that anything CAN fail, and the results of any single failure. I tell people to question "when this fails, what do I do?"

Now you can decide for yourself how many multiple failures you are going to allow. (Hint - if you worry about two independent multiple failures, you probably won't fly IFR at all.) I have flown just about every single ADAHRS based instrument available and have seen (or heard of) every one of them taking a tumble. But no where near as often as a mechanical gyro, and we all flew those for decades. Having both primary and backups fail at the same time (without a common point, like power, overvoltage, or lightning stricke) is almost unheard of.

So you have to set your own personal level of "worry", and then see if that allows you to fly or not. But yup - any individual box can have a bad day, no matter who made them.

Paul
 
I've been on IFR/IMC flights with >20mins of moderate turbulence. If that's enough to tumble a G5, then I question whether it is a viable backup unit.

I share your attitude. I had installed with the intention of being an IFR backup, but I am not confident at this point that I trust it for that.

So you have to set your own personal level of "worry", and then see if that allows you to fly or not. But yup - any individual box can have a bad day, no matter who made them.

Paul

Yes - BUT - when we install a system that has an MTBF of hours measured in 2 or arguably even 3 digits, it can not be counted on as a backup to anything since you can't trust it. And before anyone says it, yes I put mags and vacuum pumps in that category as well. I don't like 'em, don't trust 'em, and don't use 'em.
 
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Yes - BUT - when we install a system that has an MTBF of hours measured in 2 or arguably even 3 digits, it can not be counted on as a backup to anything since you can't trust it. And before anyone says it, yes I put mags and vacuum pumps in that category as well. I don't like 'em, don't trust 'em, and don't use 'em.

I don't think any product deserves being given that reputation with so little data to support it.

The internet is full of info that implies a problem from a few vocal minority.... and the thousands that are happy with the performance never say anything (that would go totally against the trend of our complaining society)
 
I don't think any product deserves being given that reputation with so little data to support it.

The internet is full of info that implies a problem from a few vocal minority.... and the thousands that are happy with the performance never say anything (that would go totally against the trend of our complaining society)

thumbs_up_thumbs_up_vote_like.png
 
Hello,

The G5 is a very successful product that has shipped in large numbers since it's introduction a year ago. We recently completed our second STC update which now allows the DG/HSI to also be replaced in certified aircraft in addition to the primary attitude instrument replacement supported by the initial STC. This STC update also includes the GAD 29 ARINC 429 interface so common in G3X systems which supports GNS/GTN interfacing. The STC also supports installation of the new GMU 11 magnetometer now used in G3X systems.

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While on the surface this may not seem relevant to the EAB market, the rigorous requirements of certification, testing against the TSO performance requirements, and experience gained from operation in hundreds of certified aircraft types have certainly contributed to its reliability and performance.

Very few problems have been reported with thousands of fielded units and most of the time any difficulties have been solved with either a software update or by examining specific aspects of the installation.

If you are experiencing a problem please email [email protected] and we will work with you to resolve the issue.

Thanks,
Steve
 
I don't think any product deserves being given that reputation with so little data to support it.

The internet is full of info that implies a problem from a few vocal minority.... and the thousands that are happy with the performance never say anything (that would go totally against the trend of our complaining society)

Well, let me try it again. I was really hoping to get responses to either support or debunk the notion that the G5 or GRT mini or Dynon D10 either do or do not have this problem, based on the experiences of actual owners of these units on this forum. One poster on this thread said that his G5 would tumble due to being in moderate turbulence for 20 minutes. I do not find that acceptable, if that is typical performance. I am trying to find out what is the typical performance from other users. I expected some either "me too" or "not on mine at all" responses, in order to obtain some more of that data mentioned above.
 
The G5 is a very successful product that has shipped in large numbers since it's introduction a year ago. We recently completed our second STC update which now allows the DG/HSI to also be replaced in certified aircraft in addition to the primary attitude instrument replacement supported by the initial STC. This STC update also includes the GAD 29 ARINC 429 interface so common in G3X systems which supports GNS/GTN interfacing. The STC also supports installation of the new GMU 11 magnetometer now used in G3X systems.

While on the surface this may not seem relevant to the EAB market, the rigorous requirements of certification, testing against the TSO performance requirements, and experience gained from operation in hundreds of certified aircraft types have certainly contributed to its reliability and performance.

Very few problems have been reported with thousands of fielded units and most of the time any difficulties have been solved with either a software update or by examining specific aspects of the installation.

If you are experiencing a problem please email [email protected] and we will work with you to resolve the issue.

Thanks,
Steve


Thank you, Steve. Your answer is the sort of response I was looking for. What you say makes sense, and makes me feel better about my impending purchase.

1. So you would say that the one user who reported losing attitude information as a result of 20 minutes of mild turbulence is a fluke or a problematic installation, and that users should not expect to see this?

2. You mentioned the GMU11. I plan to get both the GMU11 and GAD29 with my G5 & GTN650. I know what the GMU11 does, but does it also add anything to the AHRS resisting losing attitude information as a result of something like moderate turbulence, or are they completely unrelated?
 
Well, let me try it again. I was really hoping to get responses to either support or debunk the notion that the G5 or GRT mini or Dynon D10 either do or do not have this problem, based on the experiences of actual owners of these units on this forum. One poster on this thread said that his G5 would tumble due to being in moderate turbulence for 20 minutes. I do not find that acceptable, if that is typical performance. I am trying to find out what is the typical performance from other users. I expected some either "me too" or "not on mine at all" responses, in order to obtain some more of that data mentioned above.

I have had a G5 installed in my 7 since they first came out, I fly a fair number of hours and have never had an issue (including recently quite a few hours using it as my sole source of info during partial panel practice).

I have also installed a fair number in customers aircraft and have had 0 reports of problems.
 
Thank you, Steve. Your answer is the sort of response I was looking for. What you say makes sense, and makes me feel better about my impending purchase.

1. So you would say that the one user who reported losing attitude information as a result of 20 minutes of mild turbulence is a fluke or a problematic installation, and that users should not expect to see this?

2. You mentioned the GMU11. I plan to get both the GMU11 and GAD29 with my G5 & GTN650. I know what the GMU11 does, but does it also add anything to the AHRS resisting losing attitude information as a result of something like moderate turbulence, or are they completely unrelated?

Hello Brian,

As Walt indicated, customers shouldn't expect this to be a problem.

The last report of this was easily resolved and the customer reported back that he had flown several times in rough to very rough air and no longer saw the issue.

We fly instrument approaches, sometimes in rough air, to regression test every G3X Touch software release in our G5 equipped aircraft and haven't seen a problem in rough air.

The DO-334 (TSO-C201) flight test takes over two hours to complete and includes many maneuvers that are often challenging to ADAHRS units as it is designed to uncover common weaknesses, and the G5 (and GSU 25) easily meet those performance requirements.

The GMU 11 magnetometer isn't necessary to have excellent performance. Our first STC was done without a magnetometer.

Thanks,
Steve
 
1. So you would say that the one user who reported losing attitude information as a result of 20 minutes of mild turbulence is a fluke or a problematic installation, and that users should not expect to see this?

To be fair - I don't know what caused the G5 to tumble last week. I had frequent problems with it before upgrading to the latest software, after which it behaved perfectly well - until this past Saturday. I was down low in the bumps for about 20 minutes, and noticed that the G5 was showing a 45-degree left bank and 10 degrees nose low relative to actual aircraft attitude. I don't know how long it had been that way, or what caused it. I climbed high above the turbulence and power cycled the G5, and it aligned correctly and behaved itself. I made the correlation with the turbulence - that might not be anything more than a coincidence, I don't know. One thing I have noticed about it though, is that it does NOT like the aircraft to be moving while it's aligning. It will eventually get itself sorted out, but it's not happy for a few minutes.
 
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THANKS!

Thanks for the feedback, Walt, Steve, Greg. I'm back to looking forward to my G5 & GTN650 purchase when my Garmin dealer returns to the area.
 
I have the G5 in my panel along with the G3X touch system and I have been in very rough turbulence and it has never acted stupid! The only thing that's weird with it is you can't adjust the lubber line with the wings level without it moving the one on the G3X and . Nor can you adjust the G3X with out it moving the G5.
 
Just back from the AEA class on the G3X, and one of the requirements of the GSU 25 ADAHRS is very rigid mounting to the airframe. Since the G5 also has an internal ADAHRS, I suspect that it also requires rigid mounting. So if the panel mounting location of the G5 is flexible (e.g. not well braced, or perhaps mounted in the center of the panel away from structural bracing), it might be moving too much in relation to the airframe and causing problems.

I'm far from an expert, so the G3Xperts should weigh in here, but perhaps if you are having problems in turbulence you might want to try moving the G5 to a location closer to the panel structural mounts (likely closer to the panel edge) or adding a stiffener to the panel near the G5.

Just my guess as to a possible cause.
 
G5 no longer a paper weight

I am glad to report my G5 is now rock solid through all basic aerobatic maneuvers.

The software upgrade to 3.20 worked.

I am now a happy flyer.

Garmin support was very good.

My impressions today after some hood time; I have never flown under the hood as well as I did today. Having all flight instruments in one small screen just clicked in my mind. This is a great unit.
 
G5 Version

I see in the G3X Touch software version 5.30 released in April of 2017 that the software for the G5 is version 3.10 but 3.20 is out as a standalone version. Can I update my G5, currently running 3.10 to 3.20 without causing problems with my G3X Touch panels?
 
I see in the G3X Touch software version 5.30 released in April of 2017 that the software for the G5 is version 3.10 but 3.20 is out as a standalone version. Can I update my G5, currently running 3.10 to 3.20 without causing problems with my G3X Touch panels?

Yes. Just did it myself a few weeks ago.
 
I see in the G3X Touch software version 5.30 released in April of 2017 that the software for the G5 is version 3.10 but 3.20 is out as a standalone version. Can I update my G5, currently running 3.10 to 3.20 without causing problems with my G3X Touch panels?

Right or wrong I have updated my G5 to newer versions than what have been embedded in the G3X Touch updates and have never noticed any issue with doing so. For a much longer time frame, the same for the GDL39.
 
Granted the air was not smooth but I did not expect the constant "alignment"

Well, running software 6.0, my faith in the G5 got a severe dent a couple of weeks ago... flying between Denmark and northern Germany between huge cells, I got moderate then severe turbulence lasting more than 25 minutes. After about 5 minutes beating the G5 went into "ALIGNING" mode and persisted for about 15 to 20 minutes before it recovered...

Good thing VMC conditions prevailed :eek:
So, no IMC flying on the G5 standalone?

PS
Updated device yesterday to v.6.2, would be surprised if any was done about this difficult to replicate conditions problem.
 
Well, running software 6.0, my faith in the G5 got a severe dent a couple of weeks ago... flying between Denmark and northern Germany between huge cells, I got moderate then severe turbulence lasting more than 25 minutes. After about 5 minutes beating the G5 went into "ALIGNING" mode and persisted for about 15 to 20 minutes before it recovered...

Good thing VMC conditions prevailed :eek:
So, no IMC flying on the G5 standalone?

PS
Updated device yesterday to v.6.2, would be surprised if any was done about this difficult to replicate conditions problem.
Hello DC,

If you collected a flight data log to the G5 SD card during that flight, you can email it to us and we would be happy to review.

Thanks,
Steve
 
Hello DC,

If you collected a flight data log to the G5 SD card during that flight, you can email it to us and we would be happy to review.

Thanks,
Steve

Steve, never even thought about this or realized the G5 does it's own data logging. So it sounds like keeping a blank SD card in the G5 would be a good idea? Is this same data logged on the data card in the G3X?
 
Thanks for the prompt response and as ever excellent Garmin service Steve:)
Unfortunately I hadn?t activated the logging function, but sure is now.
 
Steve, never even thought about this or realized the G5 does it's own data logging. So it sounds like keeping a blank SD card in the G5 would be a good idea? Is this same data logged on the data card in the G3X?
Hello Walt,

Yes, if you put the G5 in configuration mode, and go to the Device Information, Diagnostics, Data Log page and enable data logging, you can log flight data to a 32 Gbyte or smaller SD card formatted for FAT32.

Like the G3X Touch data, this data is in .csv (comma separated value) format, but as you can imagine, the data is much simpler than your G3X Touch system logs, but has good information for diagnostic purposes.

I don't fly with an SD card in my G5 unless there is some data I want to capture.

Thanks,
Steve
 
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