What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Why flight schools hate sport pilot certificate?

W

Waterobert

Active Member
Today during my first hour of ground school, I expressed my concern over being 47 years old and not being sure if I can pass medical. Since, I will not make a carrier out off flying, I asked if I should just go for sport pilot certificate. I just want to fly for fun, when sun is up and clouds are not in my way. In southern California weather is great and rain is something we see on TV. Anyway, my instructor was strongly against it and even suggested that I still need 3rd class medical to get sport licence. He went on and on how I should go for PPL and that is the only way. I tried to get him to understand that in the not so distant future my health will get worst, since there is no cure for aging yet, however he just could not see that.
What is the point off getting PPL knowing that every two years you have to prove that you are healthy to keep it ? I think that having limited flying rights until you can get your aging body inside the plane is better then having unlimited flying rights until doctor tells you otherwise.
Bottom line, my instructor got almost angry with me for considering sport pilot certificate ? I am not sure why he was so emotional about it. Don't we all get old and have to consider our options? :confused:
 
Many flight schools discourage earning a sport pilot license because they don't have any planes for rent that you can fly with a sport pilot license. I have found very few LSAs for rent in So. Cal. There are a few out there, but not many.

The instructor is completely wrong if he said you need a 3rd class medical to earn a sport pilot license.
 
I share this not to get details of your personal medical history, only to give perspective. 47 is relatively young. I receive a fairly thorough flight physical annually from Uncle Sam. I have had 3rd, 2nd, and, most recently, a 1st class civilian physical. The 3rd and 2nds were little more than vitals, "do you feel ok?", and writing a check. Even the first was similarly mundane - only adding an eye chart, peeing in a cup, and EKG.
 
Perhaps the point of the instructor, although it sounds like he didn't articulate it very well, is that you can always earn your PPL but then exercise it like a Sport Pilot if need be later. Just be sure never to "fail" a 3rd class examination. That's a loophole right now but I suspect they will close this in the future. Also, the lack of available LSA aircraft for training is also a reason. My son is starting lessons and while he was originally shooting for a Sport Pilot, he decided to go ahead and get a PPL instead.

BTW, your health can turn on a dime. Just ask a number of us on the forum for which this is true. If it weren't for Sport Pilot, I'd be fishing right now instead of flying. :D
 
For me, I would have needed the number hours for the PPL to be comfortable flying in SoCal anyway. Some pretty complex airspace out there. You need to feel comfortable in your plane and as a pilot to handle the ATC, traffic and airspace out there. Good luck at 20 hours. Might be some moments you are wishing you were back on the ground.
 
I'm hoping the 3rd class medical required to fly with a PPL will soon be changed to the same standards as the Sport Pilot Drivers License medical. If it goes thru, you may wish you had gone ahead and got the PPL. With a PPL, you have so many more options as far as renting, owning, and flying planes.
 
You don't need to declare until you're ready to solo. If you're flying a plane not eligible for Sport Pilots you need your 3rd class then. As far as training is concerned, if you are flying with a Part 61 Subpart H instructor all the time can count for either sport or private certificate. If you are flying with a Subpart K instructor it only counts for sport. Your instructor sounds like an H.
So, you have a few hours to sort it out, as you're not likely to solo in less than 15 hours in this day and age, at least in the private certificate path.
Granted, the training is rather different; I'm only talking about what counts for what certificate.
I agree with the suggestions to get the private certificate and class 3. You never know if you may move or suddenly decide you want to fly at night or over 10,000 MSL/2,000 AGL or even get an instrument ticket, none of which you can do as a sport pilot.
If you are worried about medicals, just go right for the glider rating with self-launch endorsement and you can fly something that looks awfully like an LSA and for which not even the drivers license is required. Plus you can go over 10k.
 
I personally would be careful self disclosing on a public forum that I have medical issues and looking at flying sport pilot. Even though sport pilot doesn't require a medical you still must be fit for piloting / flying.

Just my 2cents
 
Fit to fly and passing a medical aren't even close to the same thing; they're barely related. Even the FAA recognizes that by allowing Sport Pilot operation. Not that different from 'factory' vs homebuilt experimentals.

The instructor in the original post was just an idiot, in lots of ways. 1st, he was either a liar or wasn't qualified to be an instructor (either didn't know FARs or lied about them). 2nd, he was a terrible marketer. Why not give the customer what he wants, and then 'upsell' to the full cert later? All the SP training would have applied to a Private cert, and the customer would have soon seen the advantages when he wanted to expand his flying options.

By being an idiot, he lost a customer.
 
Don't let anyone talk you out of going for Sport Pilot, a lot of private pilots don't understand what Sport Pilot is all about, just flying for fun when the weather is nice. It's not about getting certified in 20 hours, most take closer to the 40 required for Private and are just as competent as a new Private Pilot under day VFR conditions.
 
I am sure that I can get my medical today, my concern is that by the time I build my plane, it won't be that easy. With my limited $ it will be 5-6 years, a lot can change by that time. Anyway, so far I went to 3 schools and none off them have plane light enough for sport licence. It must be a new thing, so PPL is my only option. I am just surprised that school with 20 airplanes doesn't have one for sport licence. LOL
 
Every pilot has a path they chose to navigate their way through a variety of certificates, experience, and qualifications. Many of these folks feel as their path was the best path, and everyone should do just as they did and they consider everything else folly. Add to that the fact that a lot of CFIs are on a track to take them to the airlines, so someone with a drastically different aviation goal just doesn't compute.

To compound the problem, most pilots and instructors don't understand the Sport rating and they shun it out of ignorance. I even had a FSDO inspector tell me I shouldn't be allowed to fly with a Sport rating because it wasn't enough training. Mind you, I was a 2,000 hr commercial pilot, CFI, MEI, etc. when I stopped at the Honolulu FSDO to ask about getting a Sport Glider rating. In reality, the only difference in training was 3 solo landings for the Sport, and 20 solo landings for the Commercial. Each pilot certificate has a different level of privileges and limitations. Pick the one that lines up with your aviation goals and find someone to help you attain that rating.

It's true that finding Light Sport Aircraft can be a challenge, but they are around. I have flown a Champ out of Brown Field that fits the bill. It's the most fun you can have on 65 hp! LSA options are limited, but they're out there if you search for them. You could also build a RV-12 as an ELSA, and that will solve your problem.

A point to remember is that a disqualifying medical condition for a 3rd class medical will also disqualify you to fly with a Sport Rating. (See 60.23.c.2.iv. Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate a light-sport aircraft in a safe manner.) The difference is that you can self-certify for a Sport rating, but with a 3rd class medical you have to go see your local AME every few years.

I recently had a 2nd class medical exam, and as others have said it's little more than the AME reviewing the visits I made to a doctor in the past two years, checking my vision, and peeing in a cup. If you take any medication that's another item the doc has to review with you. (The FAA has a list of disqualifying meds you can search for yourself.) The FAA's obsession with sleep apnea is a challenge to work through, but I know several guys who have gotten their medicals in spite of that diagnosis.

If I were in your shoes I'd go see an AME for my own peace of mind. If you're concerned about being able to pass an FAA medical, you will want to know for certain that you don't have a medical condition that could effect you in flight. You may want to find a local AME and get some advice from an expert. He can counsel you on what to do with regard to applying for an FAA medical or not once he knows your details. It just might be the best $100 you ever spent!
 
TOA

I know that it not a short drive for you but there is the SLING flight club at Torrance. They have two Slings for flight training and for rent. Also, I believe that a flight school is operating out of Santa Ana John Wayne which features Light Sport Aircraft. Hope that this helps you - I know the people at TOA and they are top notch people. :cool:
 
my instructor got almost angry with me for considering sport pilot certificate ? I am not sure why he was so emotional about it.
Click to expand...

For this reason you should fire him and get a new instructor. You are paying the bills. It is his job to get you what you want. Not what he wants.
You can always upgrade to a PPL in the future.

Having said that I think at your age your health worries 5-6 years down the road are unwarranted. There are plenty of people in their 70s flying with 3rd class medicals.

Obtaining a private pilot certificate will offer you more options in the future if your flying needs or desires change. Also unless I am mistaken you can always fly as a sport pilot on a Private Pilot certificate.
 
As I understand it you are talking about future possibilities of not being able to pass, which is not the current situation. It sounds like a lot of thought has been put into what your goals are and what the future may hold. You've done a great job in preparing yourself as an informed consumer.

A critical part of intensive learning, which is what you're going to be engaged in no matter what flavor of rating you go for, is that not every instructor is right for every student. There are lots of reasons but it sounds like you have identified an undesirable combination with this instructor.

I love the idea of going for the sport pilot rating in an old school tail dragger...many would argue that you're actually getting trained to be a better pilot than those with a PPL in a nose-wheel equipped aircraft. I just don't know enough about the nuances of the rating requirements to be much help but it sounds like you are very qualified to self-educate on the requirements and then find someone who will be a good match.

Don't get discouraged. Just continue your research and I'm sure you will find a great instructor, willing to listen to what you want and supply it professionally. Part of the art of teaching anything is to help expand a student's awareness of the possibilities while not pushing beyond the point of frustration. It's also important to embrace the student's self imposed limits/guidelines/goals. This initial instructor immediately went too far.

Perhaps an avenue of exploration would be to find a place that specializes in tail draggers, talk to a bunch of their instructors and find one who, if he or she doesn't know the ins and outs of the rating, is interested in learning them for themselves as well as you. Some of the best instructors are the ones who love learning as much as teaching.
 
Sport Planes

Waterobert said:
I am sure that I can get my medical today, my concern is that by the time I build my plane, it won't be that easy. With my limited $ it will be 5-6 years, a lot can change by that time. Anyway, so far I went to 3 schools and none off them have plane light enough for sport licence. It must be a new thing, so PPL is my only option. I am just surprised that school with 20 airplanes doesn't have one for sport licence. LOL
Click to expand...

Sunrise Aviation at John Wayne has several Evektor LSA's that they use for training.

Skylor
 
E. D. Eliot said:
I know that it not a short drive for you but there is the SLING flight club at Torrance. They have two Slings for flight training and for rent. Also, I believe that a flight school is operating out of Santa Ana John Wayne which features Light Sport Aircraft. Hope that this helps you - I know the people at TOA and they are top notch people. :cool:
Click to expand...

There are also 2 Sport Cruiser LSA's for rent in Santa Monica.

I have to say I agree with your instructor's opinion, if not his approach. Go for the PPL. Having the private certificate gives you many more options, especially here in SoCal where LSA rental options are slim. In actuality the cost difference between the Sport Pilot and PPL probably isn't that much, you'll need to master the skills required and for most people that takes more than the FAR minimum hours. If you're worried about passing the medical in the future a PPL can always operate as a Sport Pilot by letting his medical expire and flying an LSA within the Sport Pilot rules.
 
Last edited:
If I were in your shoes I'd go see an AME for my own peace of mind. If you're concerned about being able to pass an FAA medical said:
Be careful with this one. If you schedule a 3rd class physical with an AME, thinking you can just walk out the door if he finds something disqualifying, that wont work. Once he starts his exam, he is obligated to submit his findings to the FAA, even if you don't complete the exam.

A possible work around is to schedule a physical with a primary care doc who happens to be an AME. Do not start the FAA paper work(now done online) or even mention flying until he completes his exam. Once he is finished, ask if he found anything that would be disqualifying for a 3rd class exam. If he did, go straight to sport pilot. Of course this strategy means you get to pay for 2 exams, but would be preferable to getting disqualified from all flying.

On the third hand, if you know you are in poor health, or have good reason to think your health will deteriorate in the next few years, go sport pilot from the start. And start taking care of yourself.
Click to expand...
 
I am in good health and should be able to pass third class medical,however I don't think that I like my instructor after what he said or how he said it. He completely made it sound as if it was up to you and you have complet control over your health. Middle age man should expect that his health will not last forever and plan his life accordingly. Even young people get sick out of the blue.
 
Exactly my point Joe ! I just want to have fun! When I did my scuba certification I had to do night dive. It was fun with trained instructor next to me,however I never did it with my dive bodies! Why? Just to risky to be fun. Flying at night while it is raining can be done if you have PPL. Do I want to do it? No! I can wait for sunny day.
 
Last edited:
Nihon_Ni said:
A point to remember is that a disqualifying medical condition for a 3rd class medical will also disqualify you to fly with a Sport Rating. (See 60.23.c.2.iv. Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate a light-sport aircraft in a safe manner.)
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. I don't understand how this has been discussed and debunked so many times, and anyone can still think it's true. I have, and know of several other pilots who have, a medical condition that would prevent me from getting a third class medical certificate. My doctors -- more than one of them -- agree that there is no reason I could not safely fly. In fact, I'm in better shape and at much lower risk now than I was when I did have a medical certificate.

Yes, there are absolutely some conditions that would prevent you from getting a medical certificate and disqualify you from flying. There are also plenty that don't.

My advice to the OP would be, if you can pass a third class medical exam now, do so and get your Private Pilot certificate. It never expires, and also covers you for LSA flying if at some point you decide not to renew your medical -- for whatever reason. For one thing, rental LSAs are very hard to find in many areas (impossible anywhere near me, for example) and often expensive when you do find them.
 
My plan is to build RV-12 or RV-3B. For RV-3 I need PPL and it will take me much longer to build it. With RV-12 build will be faster and I should be able to enjoy flying a lot longer since I don't have to have medical every two years. If I was in my thirties I wouldn't even look at RV-12. I would be into faster and cooler plane.
 
DaleB said:
I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. I don't understand how this has been discussed and debunked so many times, and anyone can still think it's true. I have, and know of several other pilots who have, a medical condition that would prevent me from getting a third class medical certificate. My doctors -- more than one of them -- agree that there is no reason I could not safely fly. In fact, I'm in better shape and at much lower risk now than I was when I did have a medical certificate.
Click to expand...

I think the confusion here is that, If you have failed your last FAA medical exam, then you are not eligible for sport pilot privileges. If you fail an FAA medical, you must receive a medical certificate by special issuance to restore pilot privileges. After that you may let it expire and still be good to go as a sport pilot.
 
Waterobert said:
My plan is to build RV-12 or RV-3B. For RV-3 I need PPL and it will take me much longer to build it. With RV-12 build will be faster and I should be able to enjoy flying a lot longer since I don't have to have medical every two years. If I was in my thirties I wouldn't even look at RV-12. I would be into faster and cooler plane.
Click to expand...

While either an RV-12 or a -3B is a great choice, when someone tells me that they want one or the other, I usually suggest that they go back and clearly define their mission - because the two airplanes are quite differnt - in how they are built, how they fly, and what they can do. Both are loads of fun of course, but the RV-12 is a lot slower, non-erobatic, and can carry a passenger. Teh -3 is the most delightful airplane I have ever flown, very aerobatic, fast, and a good traveling machine....for one!

You will spend a LOT of time building a -3....much more than a -12....and will develop a much larger skill set in the process. You REALLY have to want to BUILD to do one.

Good luck!
 
Ironflight said:
While either an RV-12 or a -3B is a great choice, when someone tells me that they want one or the other, I usually suggest that they go back and clearly define their mission - because the two airplanes are quite differnt - in how they are built, how they fly, and what they can do. Both are loads of fun of course, but the RV-12 is a lot slower, non-erobatic, and can carry a passenger. Teh -3 is the most delightful airplane I have ever flown, very aerobatic, fast, and a good traveling machine....for one!

You will spend a LOT of time building a -3....much more than a -12....and will develop a much larger skill set in the process. You REALLY have to want to BUILD to do one.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Thank you. You are right that I have to clearly define my mission. For the new pilot, RV 12 would be a great start from building and flying point of view. RV-3 is like a sport car, you really want it but can you handle it? I want to build RV -3, because it will be difficult , I am worried that by the time I am done building it I will be to old to fly it ,LOL. I have about a year to think about it.
 
Reconsider the instructor-student fit

In addition to re-evaluating your end state (the mission for the aircraft, as Paul stated), you might consider looking for an instructor that better understands you and your concerns.

On a related note, an AOPA article from 2013 indicated the Flabob Aero Club had both a Tecnam and a J-3.

The airport cafe, if you haven't been there, is the definition of "on airport" restaurant;
between EAA Chapter 1 and the Wathen Center, there are many flying and community events, training, and social opportunities.

I don't have a dog in the fight; I just like the Mt. Rubidoux approach.:eek:

Good luck!
 
esco said:
In addition to re-evaluating your end state (the mission for the aircraft, as Paul stated), you might consider looking for an instructor that better understands you and your concerns.

On a related note, an AOPA article from 2013 indicated the Flabob Aero Club had both a Tecnam and a J-3.

The airport cafe, if you haven't been there, is the definition of "on airport" restaurant;
between EAA Chapter 1 and the Wathen Center, there are many flying and community events, training, and social opportunities.

I don't have a dog in the fight; I just like the Mt. Rubidoux approach.:eek:

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Thank you ! Flabob Aero Club looks like a very interesting option.
 
I definitely think your making the right call on getting a new cfi though. This is to big of a deal. To happy of an occasion to have ruined by a cfi with a bad attitude.
 
+1 re: new CFI. Even if you end up going for PPL, I think the Sport Pilot question is a good one to help weed out bad instructors.

btw, Flabob airport is having their yearly fly-in this coming weekend (6/6/15,) you might be able to speak with a couple instructors and find the right one, http://www.flabobflyingcircus.com or just look at cool old planes and meet some other pilots on a Saturday.
 
Can't say that you can justify the instructor's response in your case, but it does make sense in others. I can imagine a lot of students coming into flight schools thinking they are going to get their sport pilots license as the "cheap way into flying". It probably gets old to instructors seeing students thinking they are going to be getting their licenses at 20 hours which is almost always not a reasonable goal, nor is it really safe..
 
Agree with rv7charlie

You are the customer. Do what you want; do you want to battle with this guy every time you want to do something that he doesn't agree with?
 
LSA as trainer

I did all my flight training in an LSA, a Gobosh. They make fine trainers. I actually did my PPL straight through, did not consider a sport. I did not fly a non LSA till well after the PPL. I agree with a new CFI. Training can get to be a bit like work, and it is important to enjoy it and the person you are working with. I was lucky, and got a terrific CFI. Sounds like you might be well repaid to look around a bit. Must be a bunch of great ones in your area.

Geoff
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top