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Proseal vs Tape for Trailing Edges

czechsix

czechsix

Well Known Member
Vans originally recommended using Proseal on the riveted trailing edges, and now the plans recommend double sided tape. The tape seems attractive (less messy and no long wait for Proseal to cure), but I saw on someone's blog that they had tried the tape and did not like the results...there was some separation between the TE skins and the wedge between the rivets, so he went back to using Proseal. For those of you who have used tape, are you happy with the results?

Also, one RV-10 builder recommended breaking the edge (putting a slight bend just like you do where there are lap joints on the wings and fuselage) of the TE skins to help ensure they lie flush to the wedge when they are riveted. The plans don't mention doing this. Has anyone tried it?

Thanks,
 
I have tried both tape and proseal. My experience is similar to what you suggest, tape is easier but the finish is not nearly as nice. I finished the rest with proseal and will likely drill out and re-do the tape with proseal also.

Once you get the hang of it, proseal is really not a big deal, I just try not to get any in my beard... :)
 
The change was made to using the tape for all of the reasons already mentioned (mess, cure wait time, etc.), but one additional one is difficulty in characterizing "thin coating of tank sealant".
Thin to one person is not the same amount to another.

Use of a very thin coating is important from a strength aspect as well as aesthetics. If it is too thick, the cured but still compressible sealant will compress which results in indentations at each rivet and in severe cases, puckering between the rivets.

If those considerations are kept in mind, sealant is still fully acceptable.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
The change was made to using the tape for all of the reasons already mentioned (mess, cure wait time, etc.), but one additional one is difficulty in characterizing "thin coating of tank sealant".
Thin to one person is not the same amount to another.

Use of a very thin coating is important from a strength aspect as well as aesthetics. If it is too thick, the cured but still compressible sealant will compress which results in indentations at each rivet and in severe cases, puckering between the rivets.

If those considerations are kept in mind, sealant is still fully acceptable.
Click to expand...

Do you find it easier to put the thin coat of sealant down on the skins or on the wedge? The skins have dimples in them which would make it a challenge to lay down a thin, even layer of sealant, so it seems easier to coat the wedge...but methinks more sealant is going to end up down inside the lightening holes and countersunk holes in the wedge than on the mating surface. I can definitely see how the sealant approach could result in added weight to the trailing edge which is the worst place to add weight to a control surface...
 
I used the tape on all of the tail feather trailing edges. Two layers on each of the skin-to-wedge contact surfaces. Another 14 builder recommended that I use three layers, as they did, but two worked fine for me. I did not break the trailing edges. All the trailing edges came out nice and straight. I'm happy with all the results.

I did as much as I could to keep the rudder and elevators as straight as I possibly could with wide, flat, and straight boards, and weights while everything was setting up - all on top of a very solid and flat table.

My guess is that two layers of tape is twice as much adhesive as one layer; 3 layers, 3 times..
 
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jeffw@sc47 said:
I used the tape on all of the tail feather trailing edges. Two layers on each of the skin-to-wedge contact surfaces. Another 14 builder recommended that I use three layers, as they did, but two worked fine for me. I did not break the trailing edges. All the trailing edges came out nice and straight. I'm happy with all the results.

I did as much as I could to keep the rudder and elevators as straight as I possibly could with wide, flat, and straight boards, and weights while everything was setting up - all on top of a very solid and flat table.
Click to expand...

What is the rationale for using two or three layers of tape instead of only one?
 
As a first time builder and starting with the empenage kit I was faced with trailing edges early in the build. I used the tape method as instructed.

After reading posts about rudder twist and crooked trailing edges I was nervous but I was very pleased with the results. All my trailing edges are done now with consistent results. The tape probably gives a slightly thicker edge but I felt that the straightness was the major consideration - and I didn't have to play with ProSeal :D
 
I did a set of flaps using the wedges and proseal. I was pleased with the results. I'd purchased the tape, but had concerns about the possibility of parts initially lining up incorrectly and the tape making it difficult to reposition them.

Either way, I suggest it is one of those "Just do it" parts of the build where most of us overthink it instead of just hammering out airplane parts.
 
To those going the proseal route I found using a small trim paint roller worked great for putting on a thin layer on the wedge. Just get a cheap throw away one and use it directly on the plastic roller without the cloth roller on it.
 
HeliCooper said:
To those going the proseal route I found using a small trim paint roller worked great for putting on a thin layer on the wedge. Just get a cheap throw away one and use it directly on the plastic roller without the cloth roller on it.
Click to expand...

Did you roll the proseal onto the wedge, or onto the skin?
 
I use a rubber wheel roller to apply faying sealant. I used sealant on all of my trailing edges and applied it to the wedge. Raid the kitchen and get a roll of wax paper, the roll some out on the work bench. Place a batch of sealant on a piece of cardboard and dab the roller in the sealant. Roll the roller on the cardboard to spread out the sealant to obtain a very thin even coat on the roller. Apply the sealant to one side of the wedge using the roller. Flip the wedge on the wax paper and repeat.
 
Just an information question.
If you can set the rivets without using tape or glue and still maintain a straight edge is that acceptable?
Thanks.
 
salto said:
Just an information question.
If you can set the rivets without using tape or glue and still maintain a straight edge is that acceptable?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

I did mine that way. It was an early kit, and if I remember correctly, Proseal or tape weren't mentioned as options.
 
HeliCooper said:
To those going the proseal route I found using a small trim paint roller worked great for putting on a thin layer on the wedge. Just get a cheap throw away one and use it directly on the plastic roller without the cloth roller on it.
Click to expand...

I found that an acid brush with the bristles trimmed down to about 1/4 inch works well too.
 
Thanks Scott. I did one elevator trailing edge with those chamfered dies in the hand squeezer without all the glue and worked out fine with very slight (couple of thou) pillowing in a couple of spots. Did every other rivet, checked for straightness then did the rest.
It was tongue in cheek while doing it considering all the advice on the matter.
 
salto said:
Thanks Scott. I did one elevator trailing edge with those chamfered dies in the hand squeezer without all the glue and worked out fine with very slight (couple of thou) pillowing in a couple of spots. Did every other rivet, checked for straightness then did the rest.
It was tongue in cheek while doing it considering all the advice on the matter.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by every other rivet, but the best technique is to not start at one end and work towards the other end.

The recommended way is to set about every 10th rivet along the entire length.
Then go back to the beginning and put one midway between the first ones. Repeat multiple times until all holes are riveted.

This prevents working slack in a wave towards one end and causing a twist in the elevator of a bow along the trailing edge. This is even more important when the trailing edges are not bonded before riveting.
 
When I put clecos in every second hole on the same side I had a slight bow so I moved them under and over until the bow was gone then starting from the middle squeezed up the rivets then removed clecos and did the same again.
Worked out fine.
 
I just finished up the trailing edge of my 10 rudder and I used the tape. When I got it all put together and cleco'd the edge had some slight waves in it that I was not happy with. I went out and purchased a 1"x1/2"x50" stainless steel bar, put all the rivets in with rivet tape, flipped it over and clamped the trailing enge to the stainless bar. Then using the stainless bar as a bucking bar I followed Van's method of setting the rivets. I was pleased to see that the finished product was perfectly straight with no waves...even after the tape had set for about a month.

2016-03-19%2B15.25.37.jpg
 
The plans call for a flat faced narrow diameter rivet set to drive these rivets. Where are you guys finding that tool? I couldn't find it at Cleveland?
 
You are looking for a back-rivet set. It has the small diameter they mention. All of the suppliers sell them.
 
MED said:
You are looking for a back-rivet set. It has the small diameter they mention. All of the suppliers sell them.
Click to expand...

Correct

I prefer to use one without the plastic centering guide installed so that it is easy to see when the end of the set is aligned to the skin surface.

It is easy to remove the guard by driving out the roll pin.
 
If you knock the roll pin out of your back rivet set you end up with the same tool from Browns. I did this using my fingers either side to keep it centred.
 
I was croching down to pickup some spilled rivets a week ago and forgot the rib loaded with proseal was above my head.....lets just say I gave myself a military buzz cut myself:) Did not even attempt to was it out:)


gfb said:
I have tried both tape and proseal. My experience is similar to what you suggest, tape is easier but the finish is not nearly as nice. I finished the rest with proseal and will likely drill out and re-do the tape with proseal also.

Once you get the hang of it, proseal is really not a big deal, I just try not to get any in my beard... :)
Click to expand...
 
Double sided tape on the rudder and CS-3204 on elevators

I liked the results from both tape and sealant. You need to use sealant on the foam elevator ribs so why not use it on the trailing edge? By the way ABSOLUTELY get the special reverse squeezing spring die set and the RV-14 elevator trailing edge counter sink jig. Best money I ever spent and you will love the results.

https://www.cleavelandtool.com/products/countersink-jig-for-rv-trailing-edge-wedge?

https://aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?id=AE14-1801

On a side note I opted to use the blind rivet option that Van's mentions instead of making or buying the one time use huge special bucking bar.

However if you follow the directions one elevator will have the pulled rivets on the top and the other one will be on the bottom. I carefully studied the plans, involved my tech counselor, advisor and the local A&P who actually stopped by and looked at me idea... We flipped the right ribs.

My tops look great and I have a nice continuous row of pulled rivets across the bottom.

Yes I asked Van's to review this and NO they have NOT yet responded in the affirmative. With cracking horizontal stabilizer spar hinge connections and cracking laser cut holes that are dimpled they are a bit busy. I think it's a great third option and it looks great but what the **** do I know.

Seriously... I'm trusting my life to stuff I don't fully understand!
 
We chose proseal for the ease of jigging up and clecoing the assembly on a straight piece of angle stock. This worked great and seems pretty fool proof.
 
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