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Fuselage Progress

PlaneBuilderBill

PlaneBuilderBill

Well Known Member
Some pics of my "4" progress. I'm currently riveting on the forward side sheet metal (no pics yet...maybe tomorrow). My AIM-1 engine monitor came in today!!! Panel will be "sparse", Garmin 295, AIM-1, Tru-Trac AI, AS, Alt (digital), XCOM 760, Microair TXP and G meter. Eventually the plane will have an 0-360 with Hartzell C/S prop.
More pics as I get them.


interiorw59065pd.jpg
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/4458/interiorw59065pd.jpg

batterybox15og.jpg
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/1425/batterybox15og.jpg


Bill Freckman
Grapevine, TX
 
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Fuselage

Bill,
Your fuselage looks good. I waited to rivet my forward skins on until I was ready to hang the engine. It allowed me to reach in for wiring, fuel lines, strobe power supply, ect. I was really glad that I did.

Cameron Smith
RV4 #68 Just about ready to hang wings
 
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Steve, I used .032 and it is butted at the edges and flush screws. I was careful to get the edges slightly less than "right at the corner". There are a number of stiffeners as well. I'll send along some pics.
Good building!
 
I like it! Here is all the stuff I wish I had done when I built my fuselage and later modified. Consider putting your battery on the firewall and using an odessey PC680 or Panasonic LC-RD1217P. Save the center console area and turn it into a forward baggage area. One of the better mods I made. While you're in this stage, consider putting a .016 flooring with a couple of stiffners between the upper fuselage longerons back to the first BH aft of the baggage area inspection door. This will give you boo coo baggage allowing you to put very light stuff aft of the hinged access door, sliding it back to the BH. Don't forget rear seat passenger footwells while you're there... Also, build your floorboards with hinged doors forward of the spar for more storage.
BTW a "basic panel" is no electrical system, automotive gauges and a handheld radio...(something I also changed over the years)
Good Luck!

RR
 
smokyray said:
I like it! Here is all the stuff I wish I had done when I built my fuselage and later modified. Consider putting your battery on the firewall and using an odessey PC680 or Panasonic LC-RD1217P. Save the center console area and turn it into a forward baggage area. One of the better mods I made. While you're in this stage, consider putting a .016 flooring with a couple of stiffners between the upper fuselage longerons back to the first BH aft of the baggage area inspection door. This will give you boo coo baggage allowing you to put very light stuff aft of the hinged access door, sliding it back to the BH. Don't forget rear seat passenger footwells while you're there... Also, build your floorboards with hinged doors forward of the spar for more storage.
BTW a "basic panel" is no electrical system, automotive gauges and a handheld radio...(something I also changed over the years)
Good Luck!

RR
Click to expand...
smoky..are you saying that the basic panel is what you prefer...in terms of automotive guages and no electrical system....an a hanheld radio...
 
F-428 steps in front of spar.

Smokey - its great to have you back contributing. For this -4 neophyte at least, picking your brains is most useful. I suspect others too!

One thing though I feel i need to come back on for the sake of the others. I asked Kreuger "Can you confirm that the step, F-428 is non structural and I am free to turn it into a door for storage underneath"

I was somewhat amazed to get the reply " The F-428 step is structurally significant. I recommend that you do not
deviate from the original design."

I was frankly amazed by this and am still wondering how to get the answer I want from VANS. Without it though I feel bad about cutting into the cover. I domnt really believe its true. The saying "Why keep a dog and bark comes to mind." though.

Bill, more pictures would be very welcome, and thanks for the reply.

Steve
#4478
UK
 
More Pics

Well, I added a few more pics....one is the front crotch strap, one is showing the passenger foot wells and the third is the passenger crotch strap and sitck area. This shot also just shows the electric flaps mechanism that's mounted parellel to the floor.... more details as I add them.

frontcrotchstrap7tj.jpg
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/9097/frontcrotchstrap7tj.jpg

interiorm326067gf.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/7609/interiorm326067gf.jpg

passengercrotchstrap6hu.jpg
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/4939/passengercrotchstrap6hu.jpg

Bill Freckman
Grapevine, TX
 
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Smokey,
I've added a couple of add'l pics showing some more details. The battery is an Odessey PC625. I used it in my "sold" 6A and it worked just fine. The Hartzell prop/hub, etc. weighs in at 52 lbs. so the battery moved forward a foot or so just for the storage space is not in the cards. I probably won't go for the storage space under the F428 panels either although I've seen some really nice Rockets with little doors...cool!
Bill
 
Wow, thanks for the kind words. I am suprised as well about the battery box cover being structural. Overall the Odyessey Battery conversion and move forward is a home run with no drawbacks seen in 2 years. My concerns of the battery being exposed to 350 degree air inflight were dispelled by the Odyessey folks. They tested the battery to 500F still producing power. It is actually certified to 400F and best of all, it weighs 10 lbs less and costs fewer $$.
The walls of my battery box are .040 and I have stiffeners at all 4 corners. When I built the Bandit, my RV4 expert friend Arvil suggested alot of forward area beef-ups which included stiffeners in the BB. My battery compartment cover had screws holding it down per the plans originally. I cut the cover panel 75/25 and put 25% over the forward area with a hinge connecting the sections. The forward section is held down with 8 screws, the rear section which hinges upward is secured by 2 Dzus fasteners and a tab. There is room for alot of stuff up there including my tool bag, chocks, canopy cover and a qt of oil. One suggestion from a Sun N Fun onlooker : "dude, you could put a small tank in there for a smoke system or extra gas"...hmmm. For now it holds alot of stuff that used to clutter up my baggage area. As for it being structural, I will accept the lack of the six former screws in the cover as reducing the overall strength of the fuselage by .0003%...
As for the rear baggage, I used a nylon webbing stretched between the upper longerons and attached with tie wraps. I put a cover over the "hole" through the bulkhead so stuff doesn't slide through, giving me a very light capacity rear-rear baggage "sling". I only put very light stuff like my sleeping bag or very small cute girls back there...(just kidding) As before, if I could re-do it, a thin aluminum floor would be there.

Your mileage may vary...Good Luck!

Rob Ray
 
F-428 step

Smokey - just for clarity, the part I was talking to Kreuger about, which he said was structural, is the steps on each side of the battary box, under your thighs when you are sitting, just in front of the spar. I dont really believe it to be true but that was his statement.

The plans dont show a cover on the battery box, but it seems like a good plan to add one if used for luggage.

Steve
#4478
UK
 
Actually these parts have long slots cut in them if you install the Van's rear seat rudder pedal kit! Click on pic for larger view.

Jeff


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Steve Sampson said:
Smokey - just for clarity, the part I was talking to Kreuger about, which he said was structural, is the steps on each side of the battary box, under your thighs when you are sitting, just in front of the spar. I dont really believe it to be true but that was his statement.

The plans dont show a cover on the battery box, but it seems like a good plan to add one if used for luggage.

Steve
#4478
UK
Click to expand...
 
F-428 Step.

Jeff - thanks for that. It makes Kreuger's comment [confusing]! Do the parts in the rear pedal kit come like that or do the plans get you to cut them?

I had wondered if the pedals fit in that bay but then i saw a picture with them installed BEHIND the spar.

I feel a storage compartement coming on under the RH step! (Glasses, flight guide, spare pens etc.)

That really helpful! Thanks, Steve.
 
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In my picture, the pedals are disconnected and swung forward to the stored position. When the pedals are actually in use, the pedal itself sits just over or just behind the spar. The parts provided in the kit are for the floorboard, and angles riveted below for strength. I had already done the riveting when I decided to put the rear seat pedals in, so I made some floorboards from thicker sheet so I didn't have to put any stiffeners in. It's probably overkill, as I never actually stand on the floorboards at all getting in or out.

The pedals are mounted in that bay, pivoting at the bottom, and the tube is in an "L" shape, with a tube running up from the pivot, then another tube running back at a right angle, with another bit of tube 90 degrees to that which is the actually "pedal" part. Make sense? You should be able to see that in the picture when it's clicked on for the larger view. It is an excellent place to add cargo! I actually have my handheld spare comm radio on the left side, and I mounted my Halon bottle on the right side, both above the floorboard. If I want to use the rear seat pedals, the handheld has to go somewhere else, the the pedal misses the Halon bottle on the right.

Jeff

Steve Sampson said:
Jeff - thanks for that. It makes Kreuger's comment [confusing]! Do the parts in the rear pedal kit come like that or do the plans get you to cut them?

I had wondered if the pedals fit in that bay but then i saw a picture with them installed BEHIND the spar.

I feel a storage compartement coming on under the RH step! (Glasses, flight guide, spare pens etc.)

That really helpful! Thanks, Steve.
Click to expand...
 
Bill, I don't often get to see the end results of my R V pedals. Thanks for posting the pictures. The plane looks great. I sure wish my 9A was that far along.

The Brake pedal guy! :)
 
F428

Steve, With the above statement, hinging my battery box cover shouldn't affect strength at all. In fact, my battery box sides are .040 with doublers and gussets at the corners allowing anyone to have a fwd baggage with a hinged door. I'll try to take a picture of mine to share today...

RR
 
Hi Bill,

While not nearly as nice as yours, here is my 1500 hour RV4 with baggage door closed and open. When closed, my pubs bag sits on top with a micro bungee holding it fast. Open, you can put alot of stuff up there...

First, the closed picture...

RR

img27950fi.jpg
 
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Bruce,
I moved my battery to the firewall on top of the "shelf" (rudder pedal well) and switched to an Odessey PC 680. Helped with CG, shorter cables for the starter, and better fire protection....works great!

RR


my.php
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Now, that's the picture we need to see....

I have the brake reservoir on the firewall as well as the spin on oil filter pretty close to the firewall. Would love to see how you pulled this all together. Might make a nice project for next winter.....

Wouldn't mind seeing how you did the filtered alternate air either. Sorry to be such a pain but inquiring minds want to know ... :).

thanks

John
 
smokyray said:
Bruce,
I moved my battery to the firewall on top of the "shelf" (rudder pedal well)...
RR
Click to expand...

I'm not cool with that, I may have to though as well for the same reasons.
 
John,
It's an old idea with a new design. The original RV4 kits had a smaller air intake before the FAB came out. I designed my own with a flapper valve in front and a filter on top. Closed for ground ops and below 1000' AGL and open inflight. I gain 2" MP when I open it. The filter is a K&N from the auto parts store with a 2" throat, convenient for SCAT.
I used a standard Lycoming Oil filter adapter and Challenger filters which fit just fine. My brake resevoir is in the middle of the firewall up high above everything.

Here is the front/side view.
RR

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Billiant... Again!

I have the PITA backwards throttlebody with the mixture arm that comes straight through stock FAB.

My old -3 had carb-heat, but zero air filteration. Ground-ops where on carb-heat so at least you where picking up from deep inside the cowl. When I replaced the jugs at 500hrs, some rocks HAD pinged around in one cylinder. So be sure not to forget to use your carb-heat on the ground like me!

-Bruce
 
Of course you fully recognize the lack of carb-heat right? Cause some day it will kill you. You seem single, AF pilot, maybe that's not such a big deal? ;)

-Bruce
 
Oldie but goodie

I also have an early RV4 (that I bought). I have the flapper already and I'll bet I could just buy the filter and pop it on. I like the idea especially for ground ops....

Longer term, Bruce's eloquent :) point about carb heat is well taken. But hacking up the lower cowl is not very appealling right now. Especially since we're coming out of a month of rain up here in the Northeast. I want to fly......

Later

John

P.S. I enjoy all this good RV4 talk. Sometimes it feels like we are the lost souls of the RV world :).
 
lockwire?

is it just me, or does smokey have his oil quick drain anti-lockwired?
Look @the photo of the front of the air intake.

Bill Markey
-4 wings.
 
Bruce - I detect you have a reservation wrt putting the battery on top of the 'shelf'. Can you expand on what it is please?

Thanks, Steve.
#4478
 
Steve Sampson said:
Bruce - I detect you have a reservation wrt putting the battery on top of the 'shelf'. Can you expand on what it is please?

Thanks, Steve.
#4478
Click to expand...

Extreme heat is bad for batteries. Forward of the firewall is the worst place for it really. But some times you gotta get the CG range that works.

-Bruce
 
BruceMe said:
Extreme heat is bad for batteries. Forward of the firewall is the worst place for it really. But some times you gotta get the CG range that works.
Click to expand...

Odyssey batteries perform pretty well in heat -- 2 years storage without recharge at 77 deg F, and 1 year storage without recharge at 90 deg F -- and they recover nicely after high temperature discharge storage test. However, the operating temperature range is higher with the metal jacket.

Operating temperature range: -40?C (-40?F) to 45?C (113?F) u -30?C (-22?F) to 40?C (104?F) for PC2250 u -40?C (-40?F) to 80?C (176?F) with metal jackets

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/specs.htm
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/tech.htm
 
OK Guys, all valid points. First Bruce, by definition Lycomings are not prone to carb ice due to induction air flowing through the oil sump full of hot oil. Remember, this airplane has 1500 hours on it and has been safely flying for 11 years. All of the hours were flown by me, a bunch in the idaho backcountry and Alaska and I fly above 10K alot, a few hours in visible moisture below 50F where the FAA says Carb ice may form. It has been tested, just a bit...

I was very fortunate as a young commercial pilot to fly over 3000 hours behind little Lycomings in little airplanes before flying fighters in the USAF. In all those hours I have only had carb ice symptoms twice. Both times in Bellanca Scouts in light rain at 35- 45 degrees F. I have only had symptoms twice in 11 years in my RV4 and both times the alt air filter position cleared it up. The filter sits very close to the sump, a very warm area. Trust me, it works. ( I have grandkids I like would like to see grow up!, yes I take precautions) Of course no carb ice compares to 100MM bullets going by your canopy, cruising at 400 knots at night...but that's another story. It's my airbox, it works, it's simple and I like it...

Next, the quick drain is not safety wired closed, but it is safety wired on the sump. I connect a rubber line to it for oil changes, push in and go...

The Odessey Battery setup has 400 hours on it with no problems at all so far. Helped CG, shortened my wires, opened up free space for storage inside, works good. Hot starts, cold starts, whatever.

Questions?

Hope all this helps...

Faithfully Submitted...

Rob Ray
 
lockwire

G'day Ray
I agree totally with what you say regards carb heat. Lack of it will not kill you any faster than lack of i.f panel or a/p. Ya just got to know the risks.
With respect to the lock wire, I know that the drain is not lockwire closed, but if you look at the way you have run the wire it will tend to undo your drain from the sump. picture which way you would turn the drain to remove it. will the wire stop you or go slack?
Cheers
Bill.
-4 wings.
actually, athough your iduction air does go through the warm sump, carb ice, by definition is formed in your carby, before the sump. still agree with what you say. dont fly in ice conditions, and you wont ice up.
 
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hectorrv4 said:
G'day Ray
actually, athough your iduction air does go through the warm sump, carb ice, by definition is formed in your carby, before the sump. still agree with what you say. dont fly in ice conditions, and you wont ice up.
Click to expand...

However, the carb on a Lycoming is directly attached to the warm oil sump, which transfers heat to the carb body.

Less chance of icing problems, than say, an older Cessna with a Continental (carb is not directly bolted to a sump); which is the reason for a Cessna POH requiring the use of carb heat for landings, and a Piper (Lycoming)POH ---- "only as required", and not even recommended in some circumstances.

Technically, the Continental will produce a slight bit more horsepower, due to the cooler induction air; but with a higher chance of carb ice. It's a tradeoff! :)
 
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Hi Bruce,

Just curious, Have you had an inflight carbureted Lycoming carb icing incident? If so, could you share what happened? I know of one RV related carb ice accident. Van published it in the newsletter for all of us to learn from. It was a 6A flying in known icing conditons (problem 1) with a FAB airbox. The pilot didn't properly apply or was unable to apply carb heat (problem 2) due to his FAB setup. The ice was so prevalent (wings, tail)it finally choked the air supply, causing a forced landing just short of a runway, survivable but destroyed the RV. Last I checked, RV's weren't certified for known icing.
As stated previously, "avoid known icing" is the call.

Yes, you are correct, I have the lock wire reversed, oops. That's why I love this site! The good news is I installed the quick drain with a petroleum-resistant sealant thread lock our F16 mechanics use. I used it on several other connections as well. The downside is it makes the part difficult to remove. The good part, it makes it difficult to remove!

Next time I'm in there I'll re-do it...thanks!

RR
 
carb heat

smokyray said:
Hi Bruce,
Just curious, Have you had an inflight carbureted Lycoming carb icing incident? RR
Click to expand...

First off, that was toung-in-cheack. I wanted to stir the pot. Carb ice is pretty tough in a sump induction engine, like everyone is saying.

Second, yes I have got air-born carb icing on several occations in C-172's (O-320/360) and RV-3 (O-320). I got most of my rating (and the RV-3) in Seattle, icing is an all winter long event. I also get it here in the wet seasons.

If it's 50 degrees and dripping wet, It's pretty likely to form at least on run-up, and potentially in the air. I'm not saying you're stupid for not installing it, but I would install it just in case, cause I'd rather have it and not use it than not have it and need it!

-Bruce
 
Point well taken. It would be interesting to see what the air temp inside the cowling around my K&N filter is inflight...obviously warm enough to melt ice, twice.

RR
 
F-428 step

I finally got the answer I believe is the right one from VANS. We are free to cut the step. I will quote the email in its entirety:

" Shouldn't be a big deal. The only reason they are so thick is that
you'll be standing on them to get in and out.

Gus

On 27 May 06, at 13:48, Steve Sampson wrote:

> Gus - trust you are well.
>
> On each side of the stick there are the F-428 steps. I would like to
> split them in half and put hinges on them so I can store small items
> under. (Many builders have done this.) I am getting conflicting views
> as to whether they are structural and if I can do this.
>
> I can not see they are, and this appears to be confirmed by the fact
> that the rear pax rudder pedal installation somewhat destroyds them,
> but I would like to have your confirmation that they are just covers
> and I am free to butcher them!
>
> thanks, Steve.
"

By the way I attributed the statement that the 428 were structural to Kreuger. It was a diffent VANS help desk individual.
 
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