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Manual Flaps vs Electric Flaps

F

freegespeed

Active Member
I have already read Sam Buchanan's nice article on his choosing to convert to electric flaps after he started with the manual ones. I was wondering if any one else has any more to add about this modification? Does the motor move the flaps fast enough? Is it hard to install?

I have the manual flaps on my 6A, which was the builders choice. I have about a hundred hours flying in my machine, and the manual flaps seem a bit cumbersome. The 10 and 20 degree settings are smooth, but the 30 degree one seems to take some muscle for some reason. I intuit that increased aerodynamic forces are probably the reason. I always slow down to the white arc speeds.

The issue with increased flap lever resistance can interupt part of my pattern flying skills, resulting in a momentary irratic main stick movement while setting the flaps . This situation is just a short few seconds, but I would prefer a smoother action.

I can easily deal with manual flaps, but the idea of hitting an electric switch like on the 172's (yuck!) I used to fly sounds appealing. Not to mention the added space between the passenger and pilot.


Any help would be appreciated. :)
 
Been flying my -6 with manual flaps for almost 13 years. Wouldn't have it any other way. Personal preference! Manual flaps never fail, I can raise or lower them as fast or slow as I want. I can tell exactly where they are just by laying my hand on the lever. They draw zero current.
Mel...DAR
 
Wish I could have manual

I'm building an RV-7A. It may fly next year but who knows. I got my private ticket about 4 years ago in a '59 C172 which I still fly every weekend. It has the manual flaps and as Mel said, you know what you've got when you've got it and it doesn't get any simpler. The -7 series doesn't even give you the option of manual flaps. According to Vans the electric flaps were such a popular option they may them standard on the -7, -8, -9, and -10. I suppose I'll get used to them but given the choice I'd prefer manual. (I bet this thread goes on for a while.)

--hawk
RV-7A (FWF)
N728E reserved
 
very happy with electric flaps

I have already read Sam Buchanan's nice article on his choosing to convert to electric flaps after he started with the manual ones. I was wondering if any one else has any more to add about this modification? Does the motor move the flaps fast enough? Is it hard to install?
Click to expand...


Thank you for the kind comment and I hope the notes are helpful.

After several hundred hours with the electric flaps, I am convinced the conversion was the right move. I have no interest in going back to the mechanical flaps. :D

The electric flaps are plenty fast and you quickly learn to use them in an intuitive manner. Even though I have a background flying a Warrior with manual flaps, I can find no disadvantage to the Vans electric system.

Manual flaps are good, but electric is.......nicer. :)

Sam Buchanan
 
I would prefer the manual flaps in my 7A, but I had no choice (short of designing my own). I had a Cherokee with manual flaps and trim and that was fine with me. Mechanical just seems less prone to failure of some sort. No need for indicators, wires, motor and switches. I wish Van's would have left it an option.

JMHO
Roberta
 
Sam Buchanan said:
........... have no interest in going back to the mechanical flaps.................The electric flaps are plenty fast and you quickly learn to use them in an intuitive manner. Even though I have a background flying a Warrior with manual flaps, I can find no disadvantage.........but electric is.......nicer. Sam Buchanan
Click to expand...
I completely agree. With 25 hours or so in a Piper Comanche, I always considered the "armstrong" method of flap operation to be a quaint throwback to simpler times. It works sure, that is undeniable...but seems somehow.....inelegant in a high performance airplane. With a much wider cabin in the Comanche the flap handle does not really intrude upon the passenger's space (unless you are both wearing heavy winter coats), but that simply cannot be said of the confines of an RV, you will get intimate with the passenger. The flaps on "Darla" are controlled by a momentary toggle on the joystick grip. I simply cannot imagine any easier way of manipulating the flaps while maintaining a positive grip on the stick at all times. Besides, sometimes I like to "twitch" the flaps to get just the right feel in my butt. At times, this may require a setting of...say 23 1/2 degrees or I may want to decrease the flap setting to ...18 3/4 degrees. My option. I've heard formation pilots comment favorably on such fine-flap setting capability. To my mind, the space between RV seats is better served as a console area and be referred to only when reaching for a chart or Snickers bar or some other easily accessed item. Naturally, the manual flap purist may disagree. You know what? Build what your gut tell you to build. After all, its YOUR airplane.

Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla"
 
To me it's a tossup. I like the idea behind manual flaps, having dicked around with cessna flaps long enough to know what a PITA they can be when not working right and having to visually check that they are going up for touch-n-gos.

On the other hand, I hated flying the Arrow I got my commercial in because the notches were hard to catch if you want to go from a higher setting to a lower. Usually instead of going from 40? to 25?, I ended up going all the way up to 15?, which sucked for the go-arounds.

Bottom line, I plan on going with the "Cessna style" flap system for my -7, but if manual were an option, I would seriously consider that instead.
 
Thanks for the input

Thanks for responses. Hopefully this thread will help people out that have the same questions I have about flaps. I guess the new kits must have the electric flaps standard. I will probably be installing the electric ones this spring.

Happy contrails and holidays VAF members
 
Electric vs manual flaps

I have had both manual and electric flaps on my RV4 and recommend the electric route. The mod is fairly easy to install but make sure it is a current flap motor as I had to replace mine as Van's subcontractor had supplied substandard motors in 2000. When it gets to trim I recommend manual trim. Roger Moore [email protected]
 
I've got about 1000 pulling banners in Supercubs and Pawnees and I never found the manual flaps to be a problem. In addition I've pulled banners with a 172 with electric flaps. SOP for banners in the 172 was to drop 10 degrees or so of flap as soon as you dump the nose at the top of the pickup (a fairly busy time of your day). The 172's flap position indicator wasn't very accurate so you had to drop the 10 degrees by feel. Again I never found it to be a problem. In addition to that I've got about 250 hours in a late 60s Mooney with manual gear. Again, once I learned proper arm motion, it was never a problem and I could suck the feet up or put them out in less than 2 seconds which came in handy sometimes. Oddly, the Mooney had manual gear but electric trim. Go figure.

All that being said, when I build an RV it'll have electric flaps and trim. Having flown both manual and electric, I see advantages to both but given the tight confines I'd rather have the space savings that electric gives you.
 
I've never regretted putting the electric flaps in my bird. I have the Infinity stick grip, and the switch is at my thumb. Electric trim also gives me full t.o. and landing capability without removing my hands from throttle and stick.

I put down two seconds of flap on downwind, two seconds on base and the rest on short final. I did make ONE mistake, however. I have a momentary switch for flaps down, but flaps up is a click stop switch. I constantly forget to turn off the flaps on touch and goes, and sometimes when I use flaps for t.o..
I could take the stick grip apart and replace the switch with momentary in both directions........just haven't gotten around to it.

The -4 has an advantage in that the flap motor drives a lever which drives the flap control rod, providing mechanical advantage and causing far less load on the motor than other systems.
 
The RV9A I flew in last year, had a mighty fine looking glove box/armrest installed between the seats. The box was constructed of fiberglass, and a good looking leather armrest pad to match the seats.

It was a lot more comfy, than an arm laying on a skinny metal flap handle! :D
 
Electric Flaps are Fine

I Had manual flaps for 22 years anf I loved them for a couple of special applications but I have electric in the RV-6A and they are fine. You can't accellerate to Vx and pull a fast two notches of flaps but with an RV you don't have to. I never use the flaps on take off and I only use two flap settings on landing "no FLAPS" or "full flaps" so usually when I close in, like ready to turn a short base I hold the switch down until they stop. It will fly out with full flaps just fine if I'm busy.

Bob Axsom
 
Bob Axsom said:
I Had manual flaps for 22 years anf I loved them for a couple of special applications but I have electric in the RV-6A and they are fine. You can't accellerate to Vx and pull a fast two notches of flaps but with an RV you don't have to. I never use the flaps on take off and I only use two flap settings on landing "no FLAPS" or "full flaps" so usually when I close in, like ready to turn a short base I hold the switch down until they stop. It will fly out with full flaps just fine if I'm busy.

Bob Axsom
Click to expand...


Bob, That just the way I do it.
Casper
 
either way, but slow down & let the stick loose

freegespeed said:
The 10 and 20 degree settings are smooth, but the 30 degree one seems to take some muscle for some reason. I intuit that increased aerodynamic forces are probably the reason. I always slow down to the white arc speeds.

The issue with increased flap lever resistance can interrupt part of my pattern flying skills, resulting in a momentary erratic main stick movement. Any help would be appreciated. :)
Click to expand...
I agree with every one manual or electric is fine, but can address the full flap extension bobble.

The first reason the last notch is harder is the aero loads are highest in the last position, obviously because the flap is exposed to more dynamic air pressure (more flap area facing airflow). The second major reason the last pull is harder, is the geometry. The handle position for the last notch is in a more vertical position, which makes it hard to pull, since you really can only pull up and not aft (due to the seat backs). You just have less leverage and more force required.


Fixes
Things you can do to help. Make sure you are slowed to the min approach speed before pulling the last notch. There is a big difference in force by about 2/3rds, or there 60% less force to extend the flaps at 75 mph than at 95 mph.

Shorten the the flap lever. This may seem counter intuitive but it gives a little better ergonomics (leverage) in the last notch position. The first notches will be slightly more force to extend, but as you noted this is not an issue. Also let go of your grip on the stick when you pump down that last 10 degrees of flap. Some times it is just better to let go of the stick momentarily than jerk it as you strain to pull the flap handle.

Your last option is convert to electric which is no big deal. So my advice is no advice. Leave it manual and deal with it, or convert to electric. I now have electric and like it. Either way is fine.

If you follow the tips above you may find the manual is a little easier to handle. Save the final notch until on final and slowed to 75mph. The flaps do very little for stall speed, and the last notch is more drag than lift. G
 
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Manual flaps

The manual flaps in a RV-6 are much harder to operate than Cherokee flaps.
Go for the electric in a -6. Don't know if they are the same in a -4 or -8.
Mark
Flying -6
 
Flaps is flaps

The subject of electric or manual flaps has been an on going debate for some time. You ask which is better or best. Well, I have flown both in my 6 and I
would like to add my experence to the fary. I favor the electric becuase of the smoothness of the deployment. I'm not the biggest guy on the block so when it was time for full flap, even at 75 to 80 MPH, it was a pull for me. With the installation of the electric conversation I actually looked forward to pattern work. I located the flap switch under the thorttle so I can keep my hand on the thorttle and my middle finger on the flap switch. I also have the 3 position auto positioner installed. Bump the switch down once for 10 degrees twice for 20 and a third time for full flap. Full retraction time is about 5 or 6 seconds. This is just my experence and opinion. Now, if one of you guys can tell me how to land one of the things in a cross wind_____
 
RV6A conversion to electric flaps

Any suggestions for converting to electric flaps. How difficult is it and how much time does it take. Any suggestions would be appreciated, including what is required.
 
converting to electric flaps

Any suggestions for converting to electric flaps. How difficult is it and how much time does it take. Any suggestions would be appreciated, including what is required.
Click to expand...

Scroll about 1/3 down this page to see the notes on my conversion to electric RV-6 flaps:

http://www.thervjournal.com/fuse7.html

If memory serves me, it took me about 18 hours for the conversion.

Vans has the whole kit here in their accessory catalog:

http://tinyurl.com/ojrrn

Sam Buchanan (RV-6 Classic, 725 hrs)
 
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Tip-up, tail wheel, manual flaps, manual trim (pitch & roll).
Flying for 13 years. If I built today, I would do the same.
Mel...DAR
 
After seeing smoke come out of my flap motor, I pulled it out and went manual. I'm going to pull out my manual trim and go electric though.
 
Here we go again...

I wish we had the option of manual flaps in the -8. My motor has become intermittent for the second time in just 120 hours so I've got to open it up and clean it again.
 
Manual vs Electric Flaps

I really like the Electric Flap system with the automatic flap position controller. I pulse the switch down once, and I get 10 degrees, I pulse it down a second time for 20 degrees. With a third pulse down, I get full flaps. For going flaps up, I flip the switch to the up position and the flaps retract to the full up position. It reduces pilot workload and keeps my eyes on the approach and airspeed where they need to be. If Van's did not have this option, I would have liked manual flaps better.

John
 
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