Possible RV Search and Rescue (SAR) group?

First, let me say how sorry I am for the family. I am involved in Civil Air Patrol as a pilot and also the Emergency Services Officer of our local squadron. I have three "finds" and been involved in numerous outings in search of ELT's and two actual searches where other squadrons located the crash sites. Aircraft are difficult to find even when the ELT is picked up by satellite and is audible to air and ground searchers. Sometimes, the signal is obscured by terrain or other man made structures. Sometimes there are ELT malfunctions, bad batteries, or damage to antenna beyond usable condition.
Last month, our squadron performed "ramp checks" for an overdue airplane in Missouri where the pilot had filed a flight plan to spend the evening. The plane was not where it should have been. The plane was located in Mississippi, pilot alive, after waiting for two days hanging upside down in a pine tree forest. He was happy to see CAP. The ELT signal was weak as the plane was upside down, antenna destroyed in the crash, but was still sending a signal as it should. Even with the signal, it took two days of persistence to locate. And that is with an ELT signal. If terrain is rugged, a signal, if existent, can bounce around structures and not be picked up by the satellite system, ground or air searchers. As we just learned, even "hits" on a transponder or radar can be misleading. It is not easy to find a plane in a remote location.
My best friend went down near Crater Lake in the Oregon wilderness. IFR flight, radar, radio communications prior to the crash and a massive search did not locate this aircraft with three aboard. It was found by hunters....seven years later. There was not an ELT signal acquired. Sometimes, even with best efforts, it is hard to find a plane.

Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO
RV9A 942WG (reserved)
RV9A 942PT (reserved)

Is there a reasonable guess as to the cause?

Someone mentioned very high winds in that area. Low altitude flight over mountains in that case would not be the best way to go.

What I find INCREDIBLE is the fact that Texas and New Mexico authorities were not in communication together about this.The fact that we were talking about this for months and assuming that everything that could be done was being done yet New Mexico state police werent in on it and apparently oblivious.I would like to think that if I went down near a border that both states would be involved with the search operation regardless of where the last transponder hit was.From what I heard from my father ,second-hand, the santa fe paper said that once N.M. state police were involved they found the plane within 48 hours.We should not assume that the authorities are allways clued in.John Denko(cabinet secretary of the Department of Public Safety) made this happen quickly once informed,this in my experience with him also as he was the man who found my brothers body after he was killed in an auto crash and his remains were taken away without anyone knowing where the heck he went for three days....he's a good guy.I'm happy for the family's closure,it would have driven me nuts waiting that long.

I am sorry for the family's loss. I can completely understand the length of time to find the Airplane. 12 years ago July 4th 1995, I had to personally go find the wreckage of Bonanza N20239 in the Mountains Near Bremmerton, WA. It had been down since 6/20/95. The airplane was piloted by my brother and his wife. Civil Air Patrol & County Rescue had searched for it for two weeks with no result. When they quit looking, I went to the area with a friend and a cheap Wal Mart GPS, calculated their location looking at FAA data to within fifty feet. I found them on July 4th with no assistance from anybody in very deep woods. The only thing I got from local authorites is threats of putting me in jail for tresspassing in National Forest "after the find", it made them look bad.

The final truth is "You have to really want to accomplish something, you can't depend on anyone to care as much as you would in this situation." One of the county rescuers said after the find, "We were going to search that little area, but it was just to much trouble." I agree it was tough searching, but I wanted it so much for my mother & father. Others just don't care enough.

Aerial searching...

For any who have not seen a airplane crash from the air before, it doesn't look like an airplane. The only real CAP find that I was involved with, was next to an open field with some trees on the edge of the field. We had flown over this area three times already at about 500 ft and 75 kts. This time the sun was just right that we saw a glint of metal. The plane from the air didn't look like a plane.

It is not easy to search from the air, and this is why CAP does a lot of training.

Kent

Ouch!!!

CNEJR said:

Others just don't care enough.

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I am sorry for your loss, I know it is still a sore subject even after 12 years.

But I am more than a little offended by the comment above.

Others dont care as much, perhaps, but please remember that most search efforts are largely staffed by volunteers who care enough about someone they have never met, to spent the time, effort, and $$ to search.

I know, I am one of them. I have been involved in S/R both as a career fireman, and volunteered on my own time.

Mike

Possible causal factors

I don't recall the pilots age so it never came up as a consideration. The reported high winds over mountains seems far more likely and is why people who are not familiar with mountain flying need to know about the hazards and how to avoid them.

Last evening a flatlander pilot landed (multiple times on one approach) at our airport and the last landing caused significant damage to his LSA plane. Likely factors are unfamiliarity with the impact of ~9000' density altitude on landing groundspeed, fatigue, hypoxia. age, etc.

Perhaps the main issue was the high density altitude and higher than expected groundspeed. Regardless, it was probably a preventable incident. Fortunately, the pilot was not injured and people were at the scene within minutes to help.

The time and trouble involved in becoming a CAP member...

Mike S said:

I am sorry for your loss, I know it is still a sore subject even after 12 years.

But I am more than a little offended by the comment above.

Others dont care as much, perhaps, but please remember that most search efforts are largely staffed by volunteers who care enough about someone they have never met, to spent the time, effort, and $$ to search.

I know, I am one of them. I have been involved in S/R both as a career fireman, and volunteered on my own time.

Mike

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Just a point of reference here about what it takes to make one's self ready to help in a search and rescue effort.

It was this crash that got me interested in joining CAP. That was back in March. I have had to attend weekly two hour meetings for the past three months, had to be around to wash the airplane, had to put aside a weekend to be on a training mission, had to spend many hours reading CAP regs and taking online tests. And, I had to spend several hundred dollars on uniforms and materials. All this just so I can sit in the BACK seat of a 172 and search for victims should the call ever come.

Since I'd like to do more than just sit in the back seat, I will need to spend time getting ready for the checkride - something about the same level as an FAA checkride, which will require me to spend time in a rental plane (at my own expense of course) before I am ready for the checkride. Then, I will need to build hours (60 in my case at my own expense but then that will be able to be done in a cheap CAP plane) in order to have enough experience to start *training* as a mission pilot. Another 25 hours after that before I would be considered qualified to fly a mission without another mission pilot along in the right seat.

All in all, not a small amount of effort required just to be in a position where I could be ready to be called upon to go and search for someone needing rescue. At any hour of the day or night and on short notice. I am not complaining, in fact I am rather happy that I found out about CAP and I am eager to help, but please understand that there is a great deal of work and time involved in order to be ready to serve.

By the way, all this time preparing for CAP has cut into my RV building time - I haven't been able to make any progress on it since April. I am just now getting back to work on it.

-- Ralph

Medical cause may not be age related

Had a friend, young guy in his early 30's with lots of time in the air die a couple of years ago in a 172 that just sort of flew into the ground.

Turns out he had carbon monoxide poisoning. Big crack in the heat exchanger.

I have been battling carbon monoxide in my cockpit ever since I finished my RV9A. Just low levels mind you, but there none the less.

It makes me wonder how many others have been effected and crashed due to "pilot error" when in fact the pilot was impaired by CO?

Duane Wilson, M.D.

Volunteering is hard work

Since I'd like to do more than just sit in the back seat, I will need to spend time getting ready for the checkride - something about the same level as an FAA checkride, which will require me to spend time in a rental plane (at my own expense of course) before I am ready for the checkride. Then, I will need to build hours (60 in my case at my own expense but then that will be able to be done in a cheap CAP plane) in order to have enough experience to start *training* as a mission pilot. Another 25 hours after that before I would be considered qualified to fly a mission without another mission pilot along in the right seat.

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Ralph identifies a lot of the effort required prior to serving as a qualified CAP volunteer. In addition, all CAP pilots must pass a written exam (form 5), an oral exam (1-1 1/2 hours) and a flight exam, which exceeds the FAA private pilot profeciency flight test. All this is required ANNUALLY. This is in addition to two hour weekly meetings for classroom instruction. Well worth the effort and I tip my hat to all volunteers.

Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO

Mike S.

I am not trying to offend anyone in this. The truth is that the airplane crash I spoke of could not be located from the air. I flew over the site even after I knew where it was and could not see any trace of it.

If your offended so be it. Try cremeating your brother & sister in law at a remote motuary, while the county sheriff is giving you grieve about tresspassing in a public forest because it made him look bad. While I appreciate the people who give their time, money and effort to help. I maintain "Nobody cares about your personal business & desires as much as you do." I would have been willing to give up everyday for the last twelve years to complete this search, I got lucky and found it in three days. Can you honestly tell me you would care this much? I maintain "others don't care as much."

CNEJR said:

Mike S.

I am not trying to offend anyone in this. The truth is that the airplane crash I spoke of could not be located from the air. I flew over the site even after I knew where it was and could not see any trace of it.

If your offended so be it. Try cremeating your brother & sister in law at a remote motuary, while the county sheriff is giving you grieve about tresspassing in a public forest because it made him look bad. While I appreciate the people who give their time, money and effort to help. I maintain "Nobody cares about your personal business & desires as much as you do." I would have been willing to give up everyday for the last twelve years to complete this search, I got lucky and found it in three days. Can you honestly tell me you would care this much? I maintain "others don't care as much."

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We had two boys washed out to sea in a row boat just north of Savannah. It happened a couple of years ago. But they could not find them. The were discovered off the NC coast by a fishing boat 7 days later. I swore that the day I got my -10 finished if I ever heard of such a thing I would fly my plane as much as possible to find these missing people. How as a parent or friend could you let this happen? The experts are not always experts and YOU have to try to save your friends or family. You may **** some people off but tough doodoo!
So Mike I couldn't agree with you more!

TSwezey said:

We had two boys washed out to sea in a row boat just north of Savannah. It happened a couple of years ago. But they could not find them. The were discovered off the NC coast by a fishing boat 7 days later. I swore that the day I got my -10 finished if I ever heard of such a thing I would fly my plane as much as possible to find these missing people. How as a parent or friend could you let this happen? The experts are not always experts and YOU have to try to save your friends or family. You may **** some people off but tough doodoo!
So Mike I couldn't agree with you more!

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It's like a forest fire we've got going around here. A few guys attempted to put it out, when they said it was the size of a home. However, they were stopped by some official who demanded they wait for the "professionals". It's now killed four people, destroyed numerous homes, and still going.

There's a "low budget" movie titled "Solo" that's based on a true story of a student pilot who crashes in the mountainous country of Colorado while flying one of her cross countries in a Piper Tomahawk.

The CAP performs quite a vigilant search, but it's ultimately her husband who finds her still alive after other searchers had given up. This accident is in the NTSB reports. As I remember, inadequate leaning proceedures for high density altitude was the cause.

BTW, this movie was filmed in the mountainous areas of southern Utah and has some excellent scenery.

L.Adamson

Gentlemen....

While I certainly sympathize with your obviously true and certainly upsetting cases where individual and family SAR efforts yielded results where government-sponsored and limited searches did not, I hope that you realize just how insulting some of these comments are to the memories (and the families) of the many, many volunteer SAR people (fire, rescue, etc) that have given their lives in searches for strangers over the years. Forget about the ones that have just given countless hours of their time if you will....many searchers have just not come home.

It is easy to forget just how big of an audience you are reaching on the internet, and how many of those people have participated in activities of this kind. I personally have been at to many funerals for volunteers who were doing nothing more than what they felt was right in the name of helping someone they had never met.

I am not in any way belittling the personal trauma that you have gone through in cases where the authorities did less than what you expected....those are tragedies of a high nature. But please, don't paint with too broad a brush. The CAP and many, many other volunteer SAR organizations have way to many saves in their books to do that. In my opinion (and granted, it is just my opinion), this thread is about one specific tragic occurrence, and doesn't need to be made into a "let's bash all the incompetent SAR people" soapbox. I don't believe that is on topic for this thread, or this forum.

Just something to think about.

Paul

A good ELT is a better solution

nothing against personal valor by family, friends, or CAP, but older ELT technology is grossly ineffective at providing accurate geolocation accuracies sometimes as bad as 5nm or more. The best ELT's use gps position data modulated on the 406Mhz carrier. If it is activated (and heard) extensive search can be drastically reduced when you are looking at less than 100 meter location accuracy.

I would rather have the new hiking personal locator beacon with a hand held gps interface than one of the older FAA required ELT's. Not to mention they only weigh 12 ounces. Problem is you have to be concious to activate.

ajay

406 MHZ

Bottom Line.......buy a 406 mhz / $1000 ELT.

CNEJR said:

Can you honestly tell me you would care this much? I maintain "others don't care as much."

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Yes, I can.

I cant care as much as a family member, but I and others do care enough to do what we can.

This is the phrase I used in my first post, where I took offense at your line "Others just don't care enough".

Semantics, maybe, but as Limbaugh is fond of saying, words mean things.

Paul, sorry to beat this one again, after your not so gentle reminder, but I suspect you have personally seen your share of SAR incidents in your VFD time.

CNEJR, as I said before, I regret your loss. I can not experience it.

'nuff said.

Mike

Paul is right. My thread is in no way meant to bash, belittle any SAR, it is simply to note, that your personal desire & determination can make a difference. This is the very spirit that each SAR member finds in himself when he puts on his boots to go search. My only complaint lays with the "sheriff of that county", who made me do my search on a covert basis and threaten me with jail after being sucessful. His attitude & leadership was lacking as evidenced by the press releases he made before the find.

And yes, Mike S., we live in a "Perfect World", our government officials always have your best interest at heart, they would never mislead you, and always give their best effort. As evidenced by the statement, "The hunters will find them in a few years."

This is precisely why organizations like CAP and Texas Equi Search are so important to us because "others don't care enough".

My heart felt feelings and prayers go out to the family members who have been waiting for some closure on finding the pilots remains, time really does heal your pain.

Other members are right, spend your money on state of the art tech. (elts, gps) they are cheap at four times the price. If my brother had had a simple gps (not generally available at the time), it would not even have been a close call. What is the value of a Garmin 496 when it could mean your life or your family members life?

But where was CAP sent to search?

Again, I would like to know: Where was CAP sent to search? If we weren't ever sent to the area of the actual crash then we could not have found the victim.

Did CAP search that grid?

On my first time out on a search exercise, they sent us to search a grid and we searched it diligently and thoroughly only to find that the target was in fact 60 miles away. I got an A for effort but that's all that I could do. As a team though, we did find the target. And I did find the next two targets I was sent to look for that day. Not bad for a first time out.

--Ralph
"In Nomex Maximus"

406 MHz PLB

These can be had for around $550 USD with integral GPS. Obviously it won't help if you are flying nap of the earth and suddenly get slammed into the ground because of strong winds or you fly into a thunderstorm and the plane is ripped apart before you can activate it.

The actual accuracy of the position reported in the transmitted message is probably closer to 10 meters. Of course you get get the 406 MHz ELT as Yukon suggested but the PLB works in all modes...even at home.

I think all of us are sorry for loss of Jim. He obviously had a great family and great friends! Thanks for the post! Please keep us posted and visit frequently!
I think we as an RV group need to get some SAR training and organization. It's a shame that the critical flight data was withheld for so long! I know they don't want a hundred planes all trying to fly the same grid but let us search where they are not.

TSwezey said:

I think we as an RV group need to get some SAR training and organization. It's a shame that the critical flight data was withheld for so long! I know they don't want a hundred planes all trying to fly the same grid but let us search where they are not.

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I have been thinking along these same lines. I was in the CAP a while back and eventually became a mission pilot. However, when I began building I decided to drop CAP in order to spend more time building. I just didn't have time for both.

When I am done building I would very much like to be available to assist in a SAR operation should the need arise. I wonder if our RV community could organize SAR training and occasionally get together for SAR exercises? Kind of like the RV'ers who do formation flying. It would be yet another excuse to fly (like we need one ).

New Thread Maybe?

Tony and Todd - an interesting idea!

But rather than take this thread in a different direction and dilute it, how about starting a new thread on the potential of organizing an RV SAR force?

It might separate your idea from some of the emotional aspects of this particular incident ....

Just a suggestion, if you';re serious!

Paul

Thanks Phil

Hawkflyer said:

Again, on behalf of the members of USUA Flying Club 1, and Jim Willess's family, thank all of you for your support.

Phil Williams
Director of Membership
USUA Flying Club 1

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Thank you very much for your post Phil. In my ag aviation business, I use a Satloc GPS for swath guidance during my spray runs and it has 1 foot accuracy and tells me via a lightbar on the cowl to fly 1 foot left, two feet, etc and the swath line (An A-B line) is established by me on the first pass. The line essentially circles the globe and with a pushbutton on the stick, I advance 70 feet to the next swath. I could put in one mile as far as swath width is concerned (I think). I was wondering how accurately SAR follows a line in a grid type search and whether they may or may not have my type of accuracy. Is it even needed? Does any of you know?

Thanks,
Pierre

Join CAP instead.

Ironflight said:

Tony and Todd - an interesting idea!

But rather than take this thread in a different direction and dilute it, how about starting a new thread on the potential of organizing an RV SAR force?

It might separate your idea from some of the emotional aspects of this particular incident ....

Just a suggestion, if you';re serious!

Paul

Click to expand...

If you want to help, join CAP. Organizing a competing SAR force is probably not helpful.

Paul - ask yourself - what would NASA have thought of a privateer SAR force showing up during the Columbia recovery? You would have no idea of what they were or were not capable of. You would not know how to control or coordinate them. They would not have compatible radios or equipment.

The only advantage I can see in an "RV SAR Force" would be that it would be free to continue searches after CAP has quit. But even then you have to consider that the RV is a poor choice for a SAR aircraft. Low wing, only two seats and not a real good choice for extended slow flight.

Unfortunately, and probably because of insurance reasons, CAP does not allow the use of experimental or homebuilt aircraft. Yeah, I know, that sucks. But that rule just isn't going to change, so your RV (and mine) will not be welcome at CAP missions. But we are upgrading to glass cockpit 182s, so it isn't all bad.

Please, join CAP instead. We can use your skills.

--John
Senior Member
MI Wing CAP

pierre smith said:

Thank you very much for your post Phil. In my ag aviation business, I use a Satloc GPS for swath guidance during my spray runs and it has 1 foot accuracy and tells me via a lightbar on the cowl to fly 1 foot left, two feet, etc and the swath line (An A-B line) is established by me on the first pass. The line essentially circles the globe and with a pushbutton on the stick, I advance 70 feet to the next swath. I could put in one mile as far as swath width is concerned (I think). I was wondering how accurately SAR follows a line in a grid type search and whether they may or may not have my type of accuracy. Is it even needed? Does any of you know?

Thanks,
Pierre

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Pierre,

The 172P that we fly for the local squadron has a civilian (Apollo?) GPS which has a modification to provide CAP style search patterns according to CAP's grid system for the US. Plug in your gird reference and a few parameters and it will show you how to fly the search pattern. The last mission I was on we were flying half mile tracks at 1000 AGL, dropping down to 500 AGL when we saw something interesting. We have two people in the plane looking out either side and the pilot concentrates on flying the plane.

I myself was able to spot two of two targets I was sent after the first time out. One was an air force parachute, the other was a simulated airplane. Granted, a crashed airplane looks nothing like a eal airplane but based on my very brief experience as a scanner our methods do offer a good chance of finding things.

--John

Nomex Maximus said:

Paul - ask yourself - what would NASA have thought of a privateer SAR force showing up during the Columbia recovery? You would have no idea of what they were or were not capable of. You would not know how to control or coordinate them. They would not have compatible radios or equipment.

--John
Senior Member
MI Wing CAP

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John - I was actually just trying to get folks that want to discuss this to start a new thread. I did, in fact, run the Air Search for Columbia debris out in East Texas for two months - and one of my primary tools was the CAP. (In addition, I was coordinating everything from the CAP Cessnas to DC-3's, downward-looking radar turboprops, and ER-2's.) I turned down numerous offers of help from well-intentioned, concerned private individuals with airplanes because I had no idea what kind of training (usually none) or organization they had. There ARE private volunteer SAR organizations (none air based that I am aware of), such as Equssearch (sp?), but they have taken years and years to establish their procedures and reputations within the greater SAR community.

The East Texas efforts were occasionally hindered by well-meaning but uncoordinated efforts to help, so I am acutely aware of the issues involved, having been in Rescue organizations most of my life.

I am reluctantly replying here because I think this has taken this thread way off topic - sorry.

Paul

SAR and CAP thread

I have started this tread for the discussion of Search and Rescue and Civil Air Patrol. Hopefully we can post here instead of using the thread about a particular incident for this more general discussion.

I used to fly with CAP, but getting towards the end of building my RV9A I gave it up for time reasons. I hope to get back into it in the future and would encourage anyone with the time to help this organization out.

Kent

I used to fly with a squadron which I shall not identify, but they got to where they were more excited about protocol, rank structure, pecking order, and paperwork than they were about actually flying and serving a function, so I had to bail on that. I started using my excess flying hours for Angel Flight and putting them to good use.

You won't be able to use your RV but...

CAP regs don't allow the use of homebuilt or experimental aircraft so that rules out RVs participating. That rule is unlikely to change for insurance reasons alone. And as mentioned before, the RV is really not a great platform for this type of mission.

One possibility would be to get a group of people together to form a club that has one or more 172s or 182s. Those people then join CAP and fly the airplanes for CAP when called upon. And when CAP ends a search that you don't think should have been ended, you then continue on in your club's 172 as long as you see fit on your own as private individuals.

CAP does sell off aircraft occasionally. The going prices were like $40000 for a 172 which would have had excellent maintainance and about 4000 - 5000 hours and IFR avionics. And a CAP paint job. Split that by five or ten RV pilots and it could be doable. I was seriously thikning about buying one myself last week but finally decided to focus on building my 7A and attending meeetings and missions as well.

-- John

John there is another way to skin that cat.

When I was last a member, you could rent the CAP aircraft for a very reasonable price. That was about 2 years ago, but I think that the 182 cost $72.00 wet. I CAP were no longer flying the mission and some members wanted to continue on their own you could split the price three ways (pilot, front seat and rear seat observers). I know that in the wing that I was in this would be no problem. In fact the planes were never used as much as was desired and members were encouraged to use the planes.

This would require that all users of the aircraft be CAP members, because non-members were not allowed in the aircraft.

I know of some members that signed their wives up so that they could use the planes to make trips together. Oh yea the other thing is that the members would need to have on one of the official CAP uniforms.

Kent

A Competing Hobby...

kentb said:

When I was last a member, you could rent the CAP aircraft for a very reasonable price. That was about 2 years ago, but I think that the 182 cost $72.00 wet. I CAP were no longer flying the mission and some members wanted to continue on their own you could split the price three ways (pilot, front seat and rear seat observers). I know that in the wing that I was in this would be no problem. In fact the planes were never used as much as was desired and members were encouraged to use the planes.

This would require that all users of the aircraft be CAP members, because non-members were not allowed in the aircraft.

I know of some members that signed their wives up so that they could use the planes to make trips together. Oh yea the other thing is that the members would need to have on one of the official CAP uniforms.

Kent

Click to expand...

For me, CAP has become a competing hobby to the RV. I could easily sell off the RV kit and concentrate fulltime on CAP and be quite happy with things. I am still pursuing both at this time - I am now nearing the end of empennage work and can see a faint glimmer of light at the end of the long dark construction tunnel. So I will continue on as an RVer, but CAP is just as important to me at this point.

There is a fair amount of piloting professionalism involved, considering that I am not myself a professional pilot. An FAA-like checkride every year. Mission pilot qualification and requalifications every two years. Still higher standards for providing cadet or AFROTC orientation flights or for using the bigger or better airplanes. Participation in the WINGS program. Just overall CAP adds a level of challenge to flying after you've gotten your private license.

The advantage of buying a CAP plane of your own is that you can use it when you want to without having to comply with CAP procedures all the time - you could take it out of the state, no calling for a flight release, no weight and balance worksheet everytime you fly, etc, etc...

Uniforms - I just got my blue flight suit and had to send it back because I am still too fat for it. I really look rediculous in it. It was enough to make me start a diet.

--John

Your "Handle"

Nomex Maximus said:

<SNIP>I just got my blue flight suit and had to send it back because I am still too fat for it.<SNIP>

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Sorry, John, but your statement just begs the question, "Is that how you came up with your username 'Nomex Maximus?' " LOL

This thread is very interesting as I too have thought seriously about joining CAP but just never have found the time to join. I was a cadet many years ago in high school, but it was a small squadron in a small town and we didn't have an airplane, so cars and girls came along and... You know the rest of the story.

Seriously, this thread brings to my mind the SAR efforts here in North Alabama when Steve Wittman was missing. Several of our EAA Chapter members flew unofficial flights over the rugged forests of north east Alabama.

I think there is a common bond among us all to help a fellow aviator when he (or she) is overdue at the destination.

Don

John, I did both most of my building time.

When I got to the last year of building I started making a big push (time commitment). My wife sometimes wonder if I was coming home at night.
So I had to give something up. CAP was it. I also cut back on doing Young Eagle flights, which I missed even more the the CAP work.
Now the pressures is off somewhat as the plane is flying. And I have been able to start doing Young Eagle flights again.
Some day I may be able to work CAP back in, but I have got to keep the wife happy by coming home once in a while.

Keep on building, the process is a great education and reward, plus when you are done you get a cool plane to fly.

Kent

I, too, grew tired of the red tape involved with CAP flying. I had no problem with the flight proficiency requirements and such. I found them tough but very helpful in keeping my flying skills current. But there was (when I was in CAP) an enormous amount of non-value added time involved.

The wing/squadron I was in (it was NOT here in middle Georgia) would often plan SAR exercises and then cancel them at the last minute because of funding issues. I once flew a CAP C172 a couple of hundred miles to a SAR only to be sent home becasue our plane didn't have a safety mod that the safety officer said we should have. He didn't want to let us fly the plane home. But, he was talked into issuing us a special dispensation. It was later determined we weren't even required to have the safety mod. Then there was the time I was left stranded for 12 hours. I had flown our CAP plane away from the coast because of an approaching hurricane. I needed to get home to secure my home and prepare to evacuate. There were other incidents and issues as well, but I don't want to go off on a rant (maybe too late, huh ). Bottom line was that my time is valuable to me and the wing/squadron with which I was associated did not value my time.

I do NOT believe this is indicative of CAP overall. And I think there is a lot of personal benefit and satisfaction that can be had from participating in CAP for those who are tolerant and patient and have some excess time on their hands.

My suggestion is if some of us want to organize an informal group of people who want to improve their SAR capabiliites through exchange of knowledge and practice missions we do so. In NO way should this group try to "compete" with CAP or anyone else. This includes recruiting pilots AND interfering with CAP SAR activities. I'd say this group would simply be an alternative to CAP for pilots who don't want the structure required by CAP (or just want to fly in a T-shirt and shorts ). Perhaps we won't be as well trained in SAR techiniques. And, true, our RV's are not well-suited for SAR activities. However, an extra pair or two or more of eyes looking for a target will increase the likelihood of more quickly finding a downed aircraft.

I like keeping things simple. Perhaps we could have web-based repository for documents that describe how to fly various search patterns, techniques for scanning, etc. From time-to-time interested pilots could get together and conduct searches for a target that someone put out somewhere. In the old days, hams used do searches for hidden transmitters. That always sounded like fun to me.

We all want to help when one of our own is in trouble. With or without such a group, many of us will avail ourselves to help when a situation arises. If we have learned something by pariticipating in some of these group activities, so much the better.

Just my thoughts...

apatti said:

I, too, grew tired of the red tape involved with CAP flying. I had no problem with the flight proficiency requirements and such. I found them tough but very helpful in keeping my flying skills current. But there was (when I was in CAP) an enormous amount of non-value added time involved.

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I just got back from the meeting tonight. I became the communications officer. I was also "volunteered" to become part of the Christmas party planning commitee now that we lost our chaplain. I tried my best to avoid it. *sigh*...

Perhaps the answer is to avoid the meetings and just show up for the missions...

apatti said:

I had no problem with the flight proficiency requirements and such. I found them tough but very helpful in keeping my flying skills current.

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A little tidbit: in CAP, if you are involved in a fuel exhaustion incident with a CAP plane, you loose your flying privileges permanently. You can damage the airplane and possibly keep flying after remedial training but fuel exhaustion is the end of flying with them apparently.

Another tidbit: in order to get a flight release (to go fly the airplane for any reason) among other things you must tell the flight release officer that you have read the latest monthly safety newsletter.

Nomex Maximus said:

Another tidbit: in order to get a flight release (to go fly the airplane for any reason) among other things you must tell the flight release officer that you have read the latest monthly safety newsletter.

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This assumes you can get ahold of a FRO . That was another problem I had. You get all the paperwork completed and get ready to go get in the airplane; then you have to spend 15-20 minutes calling/waiting on a callback from an FRO. The setup costs to go flying were huge. Perhaps most frustrating was that the rules (or the intrepretation thereof) kept changing. What was considered right one month got you in trouble the next.

It is a volunteer organization and as such you have to expect a certain amount of dis-organization. Most of the people doing the work have day-jobs and can only spend so much time trying to get everything just right. It is also interesting to see how some folks really get into it. I thought it was funny that when I first joined we had to watch a video on what was appropriate/inappropriate behavior around kids. We also had to watch a video on how to wear the various uniforms and who could wear what, when. The officer conducting our training kept fast forwarding through the "don't molest the kids" video and when he put in the uniform video he said "OK, everyone pay attention. This is important!"

Again these kind of things are minor and I can deal with them. But I can't waste as much time as was necessary to be in CAP. The Air Force is implementing something called AFSO21 (Air Force Smart Operations for the 21st century). It is their version of the Toyota Production System (Lean Manufacturing). They have made some remarkable improvements here at Robins Air Force Base. For example, depot maintenance for the C5 used to take over 350 days about 5 years ago and was never completed on time. Now, it takes an average of 165 days and they have almost 100% on time delivery. It would be nice if some of AFSO21 makes it way into the CAP.

Since I am in the education field I was "appointed" the aerospace education officer for a senior squadron. A job nobody else wanted... I tried to put together programs of interest and was mostly successful. In fact, they offered me a position as the Wing AEO. However, that was about the time I was extracting myself from the CAP. I also did a stint as the safety officer. I didn't mind that too much. I think I would have liked being the comm officer. I am a ham (no smart remarks, please ) and like playing with radios.

Besides SAR's, is the CAP doing any other flying missions? When I was in it there was an MOU with the DEA to go out and look for marijuana fields. Has radiological monitoring made a comeback since 9/11?

Flying -

Our unit participates in:
SAR for downed aircraft,
Counter drug (but you need a security clearance)
Cadet orientation flights
monthly(?) wing training missions
Flyovers for WWII veteran funerals

and you can rent the airplane dry at $30 an hour. Not bad for a clean IFR 172 with AP, GPS and DME and extra radios. I am assuming that the new glass 182s are more per hour and there is one available to me (in theory) 40 miles away. Right now though, there are only about 5 or 7 pilots "competing" for the airplane.

I have not had the experience of trying to schedule/fly the airplane yet. Getting flight releases so far (two missions) has been only a minor inconvenience (~10 minutes on the phone).

Disaster Recovery vs. SAR

Here is something to consider. Our CAP Wing suggested CAP coach and organize a state disaster recovery program for people (pilots) interested in assisting others during a natural disaster.
This would NOT be Search and Rescue.
It would be to ferry in supplies and/or personnel (maybe others out of an area). How many times did we read of volunteer efforts from RV owners of ferrying supplies, including water, baby food, toiletries and such in to remote towns effected by hurricane Katrina?
What if these efforts were coordinated?
It is not unusual for a minimum of three days to pass prior to getting Federal assistance into natural disaster areas. This is merely a fact in most cases.
This could be coordinated, organized, and scheduled by area of need.

Lets leave SAR to the professional groups that spend time training, practicing and coordinating efforts but offer assistance with disaster recovery. More pilots could participate and potentially help a lot of people in need. Thoughts?

Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO
CAP pilot
CAP Squadron Emergency Services Officer