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Further news on Croft Farm RV-7A flip

Captain Avgas

Well Known Member
There is further news on the RV7A that flipped on landing at Crofts Farm in the UK at the following site. Interesting to note that the pilot claims he was down to only 10 to 15 MPH when the incident took place. It has been suggested by others that the perception that the plane was travelling faster was created by the slow frame rate of the mobile phone video camera.

www.eezicam.co.uk/intro.htm

Scan down the page.

I have reposted this here in the General Section because the main thread was moved by a Moderator to the "Nosewheel vs Tailwheel" section.
Incidentally the state of the Croft Farm surface looks like a billiard table top compared to the really rough country strips I'm used to flying my 182 in to. People can rave on all they like about pilot error but I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the Vans 2 seat nosegear is VERY fragile and flimsy.
 
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How difficult do you guys think it is going to be to repair the damage to the fuselage? Seems like there is an appreciable amount of deformation at the aft baggage compartment bulkhead.

I am not familiar with the new-fangled way these airplanes go together now-a-days with the matched hole feature. Can he just build a new tailcone???

Just curious.


Regards,
 
Escape procedure?

Interesting video and comments on the Croft Farm incident.
Although these nosewheel failures are rare compared to the many daily turf landings per day, it's still frequent enough to require corrective structural modification. Simply put, if this same type of failure was on a certified castering nosewheel airplane, a correction would have been implemented by the manufacturer long before a prolonged trend such as this.
Pointing the finger at Pilot error and turf conditions is not a proactive solution. (however, it's probably financially positive for the manufacturer)
Now, enough for my nosewheel rant.. to the question at hand.

In the event one finds themself in the same position.
(upside down on the turf from a nosewheel failure)
What is the safest method to escape?
Assume that nobody is outside to assist. (as on many private grass strips)
Chances are the canopy will crack/bust. And hopefully the rollbar will provide some gap to crawl out of.
Just wondering if anyone has given some preventive thoughts to escape.
Any reasonable suggestions?
 
Old Style Fork

It was the old style fork.

CroftIncident.jpg
 
lets all realise that these are homebuilt / experimental planes and thus the manufactor is not Vans but us the builders. Its our responsibility to either come up with a beefier nose wheel system or restrict in the POH the off field operations on this configuration.
 
We manufactured the nose gear? news to me...

Kevin, yes we assembled the airplane but its obvious to all that Vans aircraft designed, tested and manufactured the flimsy nosewheel assembly.
I used to have a huge amount of loyalty to Vans having been flying one model or another since 1984 but this recent position of theirs of having their head in the sand is getting absurd.
No disresppect intended.
rick
 
allbee said:
Sorry guys, I haved watched the video several times and he didn't do a soft field landing.

You are correct. here's the direct quote: "Unfortunately, Romeo Mike was damaged in an incident at Croft Farm on 9th June. The damage is substantial. At the end of the landing roll, and with some braking applied, the nose was bounced back into the air and when it came down it buckled under and flipped the aircraft over.

Speed was estimated as 10-15 mph by Richard and a ground marshal."

The big clue here was "with some braking applied". This definitely not a soft-field landing. A simple mind experiment is this... nose bounces up with brakes applied. Rather than softly settling back, it's driven back into the ground by the effect of the braking, which provides a large negative pitching moment. He may have exceeded the load limit for the nose gear... which has very little margin for error.

This is not really pilot error... the nose gear should be tolerant of a wide range of normal conditions, including this one.

So we have evidence as to the root cause... excessive braking causes excessive breaking. We just don't have a foolproof solution.

I'm the emcee at the Langley BC fly-in next week. Usually, Gus Fennell attends our builder's seminar. I will be listening carefully if this comes up in discussion.

Vern
 
//I will be listening carefully if this comes up in discussion.
I know it comes up every year at the Van's forum at Osh, The answer is usually the same. I would expect no change.

tom green, of course, has given us the spreadsheet Van's uses to track these things. Someone should update it and see what it shows.
 
ronlee said:
And which is better?
The older fork is the top one in the photo. The newer one is the lower one. There is 1" difference in height at the pivot point where it slips over the gear leg, giving 1" increased ground clearance in the new fork case.

"Better"?? I can't say. Not sure if there is enough data for that.

I will say that I have the new one as I bent my nose gear at 0.5 hours of RV-6A time and I accept responsibility for that. It was me, not the plane or the runway. I am now at about 225+ hours and I try to make every landing & takeoff as a soft field, with no or minimal braking, even on paved surfaces. If I did have to make a real soft field landing, it would be a soft-soft field landing.
 
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landing gear worries continued

As a (still) prospective RV7A flyer, this is (still) one of the big sticking points that holds me back. To me it is quite clear that this is a recurrent problem. More to the point, it's a recurrent problem with a HUGE downside - namely potentially totalling your plane and/or maiming the occupant(s).

I would sure like to see the structure addressed. As a 500+ hour Archer pilot I am constantly trying to improve my landings but I still have the occaisional one that I'm not proud of. I really appreciate my airplane's forgiveness of my occaisional indiscretions.

S_tones
 
Fascinating pictures

Notice how the gear just bent at that one spot, fairly skinny section near the axial end. It clearly exceed the tensile / bending strength of that cross section.

My suggestion, theory, SWAG (Scientific Wild A** Guess) is making the gear stiffer both in deflection side to side, forward to aft, but rotation of the axial or twisting down where it plows the retainer nut into the dirt.

The tell-tail ground scar shows it hit and built a berm up until the force exceeded the strength of the skinny part of the gear. No matter what skid plate or fork you have, if you snag and the plane has enough forward momentum to carry the plane over, its a done deal.

The photo evidence is almost better than an experiment (sympathies to the owner/pilot); and I find it fascinating just as a technical challenge. Van should hire a guy to do FEM (finite element analysis - computer modeling of the structure) or do some practical test with the gear leg on a test rig mounted to a sled being pushed in a soft field, to get a grip on any design improvement possible. I'm not a great designer like Van, but I think the gear could be stiffer towards the axial end.


Compromise:

Van has said publicly and in writing (RVator) that his gear is a compromise of design goals, with the aside that may be he made it too much of a compromise (in so many words). That is why we like Van, he is a straight shooter. If he knows for sure he says, and if he does not know, he does not say anything. You will never have a nose gear on a light fast sport plane that is as rugged as say the gear on a "bush plane". You could make a gear that could never get snagged or bend, but it would weigh a lot more and cost airspeed. The question is, is this a good compromise. I still think it is, but I could see Van adding a "heavy duty" nose gear option, with a 5x5 tire.


My band-aid idea stop gap would be to wrap the existing gear with a carbon fiber structural fairing, especially at the skinny end, which would make is stiffer/stronger. It would cause a little more drag due to larger (thicker) frontal area and add weight but not much. Look at a Grumman trike nose gear, it does not get super skinny at the axial end does it? For sure they use larger tires.

There is no doubt that the gear is strong enough for normal operations, takeoffs, landing and taxi but that snag load is too great sometimes and the gear is too springy, meaning defects in a way the deflection and than loads go unstable. That means the more deflection the less load is required to bend it, so it bends more until it yields (breaks).

It's a complicated dynamic problem. One solution is OVER BUILD, but than it is not the RV way. The reason our RV's go +200 mph on 160HP and not 110mph are these compromises. A U2 and SR71 are planes that have incredible performance but great compromises.

It's a stiffness thing not strength. Not sure a Titanium gear leg would help since we use pretty high tensile steel already. Again taxi slow, normal or fast walk speed, 8 mph or less may keep you safer. If he was doing 10-15 mph, it looked like he went over fast. No offense to any A-model drivers, we just care and not a A-model basher, stuff happens.


History: A friend who is a structural engineer owned a famous but ugly Piper Tri-pacer. The Tri-pacer, "flying milk stools" or toad-stool has a massive nose gear/tire and was one of the first widely produced trikes. He researched the history of the plane for his amusement and came up with some old historical pictures. The engineers didn't know what loads to design to. Yes there where FAR's so to speak, drop test and so on, but what is the real world loads. So one of their test was to drag and tow the plane across a plowed field, perpendicular to the furrows. Of course it has a steerable fork in-line with an oleo strut (ala almost every GA plane since). Well they ended up with a nose gear the size of a main gear. Of course the RV tapered spring gear and castering trailing axle design is different but may be the plowed field test might be a good idea? (or has that cow left the barn already)

plane2.jpg

RAGPIP14.JPG

May be the grumman is not that stout
GrummanAA-5Traveler01.jpg

is that a rub or skid plate on the bottom of the fairing? (or repair)
GrummanAA-5BTiger02.jpg
 
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Adequate?

Vernon,
You made my point exactly.
VANs did not settle on producing a plane with 'adequate' performance. They designed a plane with superior performance.
The same principle should be apply with the nosewheel gear.

Design a replacement that is targeted for owners that frequent grass strips.
(even, with a couple cruise knots sacrafice, I'd choose it)

Obviously, there's a demand for it.. so, market it.. ;)
 
gmcjetpilot said:
Notice how the gear just bent at that one spot, fairly skinny section near the axial end. It clearly exceed the tensile / bending strength of that cross section.....

.....My band-aid idea stop gap would be to wrap the existing gear with a carbon fiber structural fairing, especially at the skinny end, which would make is stiffer/stronger. It would cause a little more drag due to larger (thicker) frontal area and add weight but not much. Look at a Grumman trike nose gear, it does not get super skinny at the axial end does it?....

....It's a complicated dynamic problem. One solution is OVER BUILD, but than it is not the RV way. The reason our RV's go +200 mph on 160HP and not 110mph are these compromises. A U2 and SR71 are planes that have increadable performance but great compramises. ....

....It's a stiffness thing not strength. Not sure a Titanium gear leg would help since we use pretty high tensile steel already. Again taxi slow, normal or fast walk speed, 8 mph or less may keep you safer. If he was doing 10-15 mph, it looked like he went over fast. No offense to any A-model drivers, we just care and not a A-model basher, stuff happens.....

..stuff does happen...

These comments are based on having flipped the -7A, looking out the side window, seeing a corn field upside down and crawling out of the wreck after kicking a hole through broken canopy. (4 years ago)

The nose strut is stong enough to support the entire weight of the airplane as it goes over. It did bend the strut at the skinny forward end but not very much, maybe four inches aft, and the strut was slightly bent at the upper attach area.

The primary cause of a flip is not the strut or its strength, it is the size of the tire. When Van says the design is a compromise, it may mean with a 5 or 6 inch wheel. In my event, which I relive now and then, which happened after an engine out landing on a dirt farm road between a bean field and a corn field, the nose wheel was launched into the air for about 6 feet after rolling through a pot hole and when it landed in soft sand (it was in a flood plane) there wasn't enough tire surface to keep it afloat and over it went in what seemed like very slow motion as the airplane was nearly stopped. The nose tire track went into the pot hole and then disappeared until it made a hole where it dug in. A 5 or 6 inch tire might have made a difference.

I do not believe messing with the strut will matter much. A larger tire or a snow ski device might make a difference. Also, if there were less weight on the nose gear, it would be less inclined to dig in but that would involve a redesign of the main gear position and probably is part of the compromise not opted for.

I have been flying the same rebuilt airplane off of grass for 2 years. The nose wheel pant has acted as a ski a time or two with a wet surface. So far, so good. I keep the stick full aft on the ground and hope for the best. :)
 
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Does anybody know the weight and balance of that airplane? In order to understand the loading on the gear it would be good to know the weights. Has anybody looked into doing an analysis of the weights of all the nose gear RV's that have had nose gear failure? Speeds at which the collapses happen? New vs old fork/gear leg? These are all the first steps to "engineering" a solution.

I doubt that Van has put his "head in the sand". I find the man and company to be more conscientious than that. He has already tried to address this issue with two service bulletines and several design changes. Unless you want him to put out a mandatory grounding (which he cannot do) until he determines the cause and fixes. We can help by providing him and his engineers with data and not speculation on the causes.

I agree the nlg is on of the most fragile parts in the RV design but as the manufacture of one it is my responsibility to determine what I wish to do about it. That is the up and down side of Experimental Aircraft. I am sure Van is working the issue. Has anyone asked?
 
Pole Vault

David-aviator said:
..
The primary cause of a flip is not the strut or its strength, it is the size of the tire.
From the picture of the Croft RV's nosegear and David-Aviator's analysis and all the others I have read, it seems pretty obvious to me that the strength of the leg and its mount to the fuse are secondary concerns. If the tire is too small for the hole, it won't roll out of it. At that point you become a pole vaulter and it matters little if the leg collapses or not. A skid plate or "jock strap" can work if it is strong enough and if it reaches low enough on the curve of the tire. Would the 45 degree point be the minimum? That would have a similar effect as a larger tire would. At that point the strength of the leg and its mount might matter. I am not an engineer, but this seems easy to demonstrate in a back-of-napkin analysis. If/when the "strap" becomes available, I'll be interested. But I don't think protecting the nut is what it's about; I think it's about the size and geometry of a small tire. Think about what would happen if the tire were half the size.
 
One more thing to think about: Tire pressure really matters in these situations. It would be nice to the answer, but that would require collecting data which is difficult to get.

I think Van's recommended tire pressure is a compromise to prevent shimmy of the nosegear.

Personally, I'm going to the airport and putting a couple more psi in my nosewheel for good luck.

V
 
Taller mains

With the -7A's have the longer main gear legs wouldn't that put more weight/pressure on the front gear during landings?

Not sure of the stats on which A model flips the most short gear -6A's or long gear -7A's.
Anybody have that info handy?
 
7a Flips

I have a question, if you jamb on the brakes of an A model in grass or on pavement will it flip any quicker than a taildragger model or at about the same rate. I have seen both happen.
Tad Sargent
7A 267 hours and keeping the nose wheel off till the tail stops flying.
 
I think the nose leg is longer, too

N162RV said:
With the -7A's have the longer main gear legs wouldn't that put more weight/pressure on the front gear during landings? ...
The airplane still sits approximately level. The longer legs are, I think, to allow for a longer prop for the 200 HP engine.
 
vlittle said:
I'm going to the airport and putting a couple more psi in my nosewheel for good luck.
V
Higher pressure and small tires makes the "floatation" worse meaning that it is more likely to make a rut or dig into the ground. To give the tire the best "floatation" for soft fields you want as big a contact area as possible of the tire to the ground. This means larger (usually wider) tire and lower pressures work best for soft field operation.
 
plehrke said:
Higher pressure and small tires makes the "floatation" worse meaning that it is more likely to make a rut or dig into the ground. To give the tire the best "floatation" for soft fields you want as big a contact area as possible of the tire to the ground. This means larger (usually wider) tire and lower pressures work best for soft field operation.
Yes, but 'Catch 22':

Lower tire pressure means fatter tire & more likely to catch on wheel pants under pressure, and also lower tire pressure means less ground clearance for the nut and lower fork sharp edges (they do catch).
 
painless said:
How difficult do you guys think it is going to be to repair the damage to the fuselage? Seems like there is an appreciable amount of deformation at the aft baggage compartment bulkhead.

I am not familiar with the new-fangled way these airplanes go together now-a-days with the matched hole feature. Can he just build a new tailcone???

Just curious.


There's a LOT of damage to that plane. Tipping over a plane, even at low speed, is catastrophic.

It can be repaired, but major repairs to a plane are a bit like major repairs to a motorcycle.....often they are never truly straight again.

And of course it devalues them greatly, even if they are repaired.

All in all...it's a disaster. And I'm not sure that the pilot/owner deserves to be in this situation. I'm not sure that he committed any major crime. I don't see any evidence of a massively pancaked landing, or a classic porpoise. In fact it seems to me that this was typical of a landing that lots of pilots do everyday....and that's the scary part.
 
RVator

I don't have it handy nor do I have permission to post it; but recommended reading:

2003 RVator, Issue#2, by Van, "How to land an RV"
 
Good points on #16 & #18

#16 and #18 agree, good points, a larger tire would make the gear "strength" moot. If it never catches (large drag or side loads) than it will not matter for sure. A bigger tire would help. That mod maybe easy to make but would not be a sleek.

However my point was less flexibility or stiffness, not strength. Subtle point. When you push UP or UP and back on the tire it tends to BEND or flex the fork pivot (axial) and the nut down. Van showed this in the RVator.

I agree once the "event" starts (one main gear lifts) it may not matter much if the gear leg is stiffer or strong, bends or does not bend.
 
gmcjetpilot said:
.....When you push UP or UP and back on the tire it tends to BEND or flex the fork pivot (axial) and the nut down. Van showed this in the RVator.
I agree once the "event" starts (one main gear lifts) it may not matter much if the gear leg is stiffer or strong, bends or does not bend.
If you've ever watched -A model RV's parking at AirVenture you may have noticed a variation on the following phenomena. Notice how much power some pilots use to turn the a/c about while moving slowly or not at all. Manuvering in the not exactly glass smooth parking area adjacent to the Warbird area with its tallish grass can be interesting, especially when conditions are wet and sloppy.

To illustrate my point, recently I watched an RV-7A turn off the paved taxiway to swing around and park on the grass. As the aircraft aligned itself wingtip to wingtip with the adjacent RV already parked next to it, its nosewheel was cocked to the side. ln an attempt to straighten out, the pilot applied A LOT of power and coupled with his breaking action, the nose of the aircraft dipped down dramatically which in turn placed an enormous load on the already cocked nosewheel. He did manage to straighten the a/c out but that nosegear, digging even further into the sod bucked and dipped and shook significantly before it finally straightened out. And all this occured in good grass area conditions.
 
"... I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the Vans 2 seat nosegear is VERY fragile & flimsy"
"It is our responsibility to come up with a beefier nosewheel"
"Definitely not a soft field landing...nose gear should be tolerant of a wide range of normal conditions".

In the early 90s, the Piper Malibu was thought to be fragile & flimsy when in a short span of time, seven or eight aircraft experienced in-flight breakups. If I recall correctly, the FAA stepped into the fray by temporarily grounding the entire fleet and then lifting the grounding but limiting flight to VFR operations (this after discovering most of the "accidents" occured during descent from high altitude or penetration of convective activity).

Interestingly, while the initial focus was on the aircraft, it was found that the common thread was low time or inexperienced pilots transitioning up to
high performance and flying in environments where they had little experience. In the end, the "fix" did not involve structural changes but rather focused on pilot training. The aircraft was not deemed fragile and flimsy (unless flown into a thunderstorm), the pilots were responsible for getting proper training rather than redesign, and the range of normal conditions was expanded to again include IMC but with greater awareness of Va, Vne and flight in/around convective activity.

Next time you're at a fly-in, check out the clearance around the nose fairings of the A models in attendance. Look at the clearance between fairing and ground. Ask yourself how many of the pilots have transitioned up to the RVs rather than down from a higher performing aircraft. How many are capable of consistently holding touchdown speeds or actually know how to perform a soft field take off or landing. Apparently not enough.

Finally, at your next turf field fly-in check out the number of canards, Lancairs, Glassairs, etc. in attendance. Maybe they have a better understanding of their aircraft's capabilities than we do of our RVs.
Terry
RV9A
N323TP
 
Turf fly-in census

Finally said:
I don't attend turf fly-ins but at the others in my area I see few of the aircraft you mention. I do see lots of RVs. For some time I have been under the impression (not sure if correct) that RV pilots fly more and attend more fly-ins than other aircraft.

Now back to the nose-over issue.
 
Captain Avgas said:
There's a LOT of damage to that plane. Tipping over a plane, even at low speed, is catastrophic.

It can be repaired, but major repairs to a plane are a bit like major repairs to a motorcycle.....often they are never truly straight again.

And of course it devalues them greatly, even if they are repaired.

All in all...it's a disaster. And I'm not sure that the pilot/owner deserves to be in this situation. I'm not sure that he committed any major crime. I don't see any evidence of a massively pancaked landing, or a classic porpoise. In fact it seems to me that this was typical of a landing that lots of pilots do everyday....and that's the scary part.

AMEN to all of that.

My airplane has the original wings (they did not touch the ground) and the main gear. Everything else is new. In retrospect, I could have and should have totalled it and gone with an 8. :)

 
Captain Avgas said:
All in all...it's a disaster. And I'm not sure that the pilot/owner deserves to be in this situation. I'm not sure that he committed any major crime. I don't see any evidence of a massively pancaked landing, or a classic porpoise. In fact it seems to me that this was typical of a landing that lots of pilots do everyday....and that's the scary part.

I'll second that statement....
 
Here's a picture of the aircraft taken only a few weeks ago at a regional PFA Fly-In at Sywell, Northampton, UK. Glad the crew is okay !!

cimg2783wa0.jpg
 
RV-7A, Mid-Flip

Apologies if this has been posted before, but someone emailed me a link to this photograph with no description of what happened or why, or if anyone was injured as a result. Anyone have details? Is this just a case of bad luck with a tri-gear plane on grass? (Click the image for a larger shot.)

 
Kevin, yes we assembled the airplane but...
According to the FAA and the NTSB, and probably the insurance companies as well, the builder of an experimental, amateur-built aircraft is indeed the manufacturer of the aircraft, and is fully responsible for determining the serviceability and fitness for use of the aircraft.
 
Did he have the stick in his lap to take weight off the nose wheel? I've seen the same thing many times as well, but the elevator is just hanging limp. Even Cessnas and Pipers steer easier if you use aerodynamics to take weight off the nose wheel.... Fly it till it's tied down.

DM


If you've ever watched -A model RV's parking at AirVenture you may have noticed a variation on the following phenomena. Notice how much power some pilots use to turn the a/c about while moving slowly or not at all. Manuvering in the not exactly glass smooth parking area adjacent to the Warbird area with its tallish grass can be interesting, especially when conditions are wet and sloppy.

To illustrate my point, recently I watched an RV-7A turn off the paved taxiway to swing around and park on the grass. As the aircraft aligned itself wingtip to wingtip with the adjacent RV already parked next to it, its nosewheel was cocked to the side. ln an attempt to straighten out, the pilot applied A LOT of power and coupled with his breaking action, the nose of the aircraft dipped down dramatically which in turn placed an enormous load on the already cocked nosewheel. He did manage to straighten the a/c out but that nosegear, digging even further into the sod bucked and dipped and shook significantly before it finally straightened out. And all this occured in good grass area conditions.
 
G-CDRM for sale

It's always neat to see how the story continues after the news fades. Apparently, G-CDRM rides again. He gives a good account of what had to be fixed to get it going again. It is a beautiful plane (again). Hope he finds it a good home.

Don

http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=13633&imid=3
VANS RV7A G-CDRM
SALE ?69000

O-360-A1A Lycoming 90 hours since new
Sensenich fixed pitch propeller
Avionics include:-
? Lasor electronic ignition with the timing device
? AFR 2500 digital full engine monitoring system.
? Garmin 430 GPS/Nav/Com linked to the
? GI 106A CDI.
? Mode S Garmin 330 Transponder.
? PS Engineering PMS 8000 intercom.
? Truetrack, Wing Leveller
? The value of the Dash was ?22000
? ?Classic Aero? luxury seats and interior kit with leather tonneau over the rear baggage area
? Light weight Vans canopy cover
20 hours since rebuild and back flying like a dream

This aircraft was involved in a tip up accident at Croft Farm in June 2007 and is quite famous with photos of the actual tip over doing the internet rounds.
Severe damage was caused to the fuselage and empennage parts and minor damage to a wing tip also a shock load test was needed and the M T propeller was also written off.
PFA were advised and a rebuild plan was put into place. This involved a full inspection to ascertain what was needed.
The results are as follows:-

The fuselage and finishing kit has been totally replaced with a new quick build one from Vans.

Both wings spars were cleared to have no damage

The right wing was fitted with a new outer wing skin and an end leading edge rib. The landing light assembly was also replaced.

The vertical stabilizer, rudder and horizontal stabilizer have been replaced with new ones.

The engine is a 0-360-A1A Lycoming which at the time of the accident had done only 80 hours from brand new. It has now been totally striped down and, shock tested, painted and it actually looks better now than when it came from the factory. No faults were found and it is performing well.

Brand new Sensenich fixed pitch propeller and nose cone from Vans.

The old fuselage and broken parts are still at my house for viewing if required.

Two years on, and the aircraft is now back to its former glory, flight tested and flying superbly. Fully inspected and signed off by Neal France of Matlock. All the Paperwork and logbooks have been amended accordingly.

Unfortunately getting it back in the air has severely hit my bank balance so regrettably this is why I have decided to sell it.
 
Did he have the stick in his lap to take weight off the nose wheel? I've seen the same thing many times as well, but the elevator is just hanging limp. Even Cessnas and Pipers steer easier if you use aerodynamics to take weight off the nose wheel.... Fly it till it's tied down.

DM

If you look close in the video, the pilot is on the brakes hard... you can actually see when he applies the brakes. Hit a hole in this configuration it can flip any nose wheel airplane.
 
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