VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics

  #1  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:25 PM
tyconnell tyconnell is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 129
Default Tap (and die) set

I don't own a set yet. I'm currently finishing up the left elevator on my -9A emp kit. So that the hardware would not get lost, I screwed in the trim cable cover plate, and two of the SS screw heads stripped during the process.

From what I gathered reading here, this is fairly common. The screwdriver I used was not so great. Ordered a Wiha PH #2 to see if those are worth it. Also, I will use Valve Grinding Compound on the threads which is supposed to help.

On to the question - the first thing I thought of when I stripped the heads was "these need to be tapped." I did some reading here on VAF, and there is a never-ending-debate regarding tapping plate nut vs. not.

I know what a tap and die set is used for in general, and there are a couple of posts by fellow VAFers who swear by having a set. But if you're not tapping narfed plate nuts, what tasks during the build are accomplished using a set?
__________________
Ty Connell
Atlanta, GA
EAA Chapter 690
VAF dues paid monthly
ty.connell@gmail.com
N997TL reserved
RV-9(A?) empennage in progress
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:38 PM
Raymo's Avatar
Raymo Raymo is online now
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Richmond Hill, GA (KLHW)
Posts: 1,669
Default

I have the powder/wax BoeLube and sprinkle that into the screw tray or bag prior to installing. It cuts down significantly on friction and helps avoid the stripped heads.

Nut plates are designed with friction as a locking device (e.g. lock nut). Running a tap through essentially ruins that locking function.

I have owned a tap and die set for 30 years but didn't use it when building except where the plans specified it for screw installation in the aft longerons for empenage fairings.
__________________
Ray
RV-7A - Slider - N495KL - First flt 27 Jan 17
O-360-A4M w/ Catto 3 blade NLE, AFP FM-150 FI, 1 PMag, Vetterman Trombone Exh, SkyTech starter,
PlanePower Alt, FlightLines Interior, James cowl & plenum
All lines by TSFlightLines
NSDQ

"The object of the game, gentlemen, is not to cheat death: the object is not to let him play."
Patrick Poteen, Sgt. U.S. Army
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:44 PM
longline longline is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: silverdale, WA
Posts: 198
Default Tap and Die

Ty, you use the valve grinding compound on the end of the Phillips bit to decrease slippage of the bit, not on the threads. You probably meant this, but it came through, to me, as you were going to put it on the screw threads...

I have used various different lubricants on nut plates. Currently I am using Gulf brand canning wax. This does help get the screws in/out, but sometimes it just makes sense to "ease" the threads a very little bit with a tap. Experiment with a nut plate to figure out how to ease the force required to insert screw without loss of the locking feature.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:48 PM
alpinelakespilot2000 alpinelakespilot2000 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,453
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyconnell View Post
...and two of the SS screw heads stripped during the process.
Your solution for these screws is not a tap and die, but rather a screw extracter set from your local hardware store. You first drill a small pilot hole in the head of the screw and then screw in the extractor in a counterclockwise direction. Should pull the mangled screw right out.

Once a platenut has been used a couple times, they tend to loosen up significantly. A little Boelube on the screws helps as well in the first installation. I only tapped platenuts where Van's specifically instructed and have not had any trouble with screws after the first or second time.

Good luck.
__________________
Steve M.
Ellensburg WA
RV-9 Flying, 0-320, Catto

Donation reminder: Jan. 2019

Last edited by alpinelakespilot2000 : 05-16-2018 at 02:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-16-2018, 02:52 PM
RV6_flyer's Avatar
RV6_flyer RV6_flyer is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NC25
Posts: 2,944
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyconnell View Post
I don't own a set yet.

--- snip ---

I know what a tap and die set is used for in general, and there are a couple of posts by fellow VAFers who swear by having a set. But if you're not tapping narfed plate nuts, what tasks during the build are accomplished using a set?
A tap and die set is not necessary to build an RV kit aircraft.

The tap and die sets that I own are 40-years old. They are nice to have when one finds a damaged thread on a bolt or nut and a NEW bolt, nut, or plate nut is not available. It can be used when needed to repair a part that should have been replaced.

As others have said, one should not use a tap on plate nuts but sometimes there may be one plate nut that needs it threads cleaned out removing its locking feature. Not something that you will do to every plate nut but something you may do to add a fastener on a plate nut that needs replaced but you do not have the time or access.

Any cheap set is nice to have in the tool box. Better quality individual taps can be purchased if you need them.
__________________
Gary A. Sobek
NC25 RV-6
Flying
3,300+ hours
Where is N157GS
Building RV-8 S/N: 80012

To most people, the sky is the limit.
To those who love aviation, the sky is home.

Last edited by RV6_flyer : 05-16-2018 at 02:54 PM. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:24 PM
Mike S's Avatar
Mike S Mike S is offline
Senior Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dayton Airpark, NV A34
Posts: 14,125
Default

Go to your local hardware or plumbing supply store and get a bees wax toilet sealing ring. Must be bees wax, not some modern synthetic substitute.

Use a dab of bees wax on the threads of your SS screws and/or the nutplate threads. This will allow easy insertion of the screw yet still maintain the locking ability of the nutplate.

One toilet ring should last you a lifetime and be under $10.00.

Bees wax is also good for taping aluminum, and other jobs in the shop.

As for the tap set-------Like Gary said you should not need one to build an RV. Also, do not run the tap through the nutplate-----you are destroying the locking function of the nut plate if you do. They are meant to grab and hold on to the screw/bolt in normal use.

One last thing-------the first time you insert a screw into a new nutplate, not only use a dab of bees wax, but drive it by hand------stay away from the power driver.
__________________
Mike Starkey
VAF 909

Rv-10, N210LM.

Flying as of 12/4/2010

Phase 1 done, 2/4/2011

Sold after 240+ wonderful hours of flight.

"Flying the airplane is more important than radioing your plight to a person on the ground incapable of understanding or doing anything about it."
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:28 PM
tyconnell tyconnell is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 129
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by longline View Post
Ty, you use the valve grinding compound on the end of the Phillips bit to decrease slippage of the bit, not on the threads. You probably meant this, but it came through, to me, as you were going to put it on the screw threads...
Actually, I did mean on the threads, and not on the Phillips bit, so I had that all wrong!

Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinelakespilot2000 View Post
Your solution for these screws is not a tap and die, but rather a screw extractor set from your local hardware store. You first drill a small pilot hole in the head of the screw and then screw in the extractor in a counterclockwise direction. Should pull the mangled screw right out.
Sorry, I wasn't more clear in my post. The question regarding tap and die set wasn't for removing the screws - it was for "what else are they used for" since I had inferred, from other posts, that tapping plate nuts was "bad". I actually own a set of screw extractors having broken off bolts in metal before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymo View Post
I have owned a tap and die set for 30 years but didn't use it when building except where the plans specified it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RV6_flyer View Post
A tap and die set is not necessary to build an RV kit aircraft.
Darn, I'm a bit of a tool junkie. Was hoping someone was going to give me an excuse here.
__________________
Ty Connell
Atlanta, GA
EAA Chapter 690
VAF dues paid monthly
ty.connell@gmail.com
N997TL reserved
RV-9(A?) empennage in progress
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:45 PM
rv7charlie rv7charlie is online now
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pocahontas MS
Posts: 2,903
Default

I get the worry that re-tapping a plate nut may defeat its purpose. But be aware that it's not uncommon to have the heads of A/N #6 steel screws twist off while *installing* them in some plate nuts. I'd call that a bit more tension than actually needed; yes? And since it's spring steel that flexes back into a circle when a tap is run through it, it would take many re-tapping operations to truly defeat its function.

On owning a set of taps: I've got a few decent quality taps in the common sizes, and el-cheapo full sets from Harbor Freight in both standard and metric. The HF stuff won't last long tapping steel, but I've used them for aluminum a lot (non-typical stuff, to be sure). I've also got a set of HF pipe taps & dies, that have lasted through plumbing gas lines through an entire 3000 sq ft house and are still going strong.

For a completely stock build, you probably don't really need a set. But I've found lots of uses for mine. Consider locations like the anchor points for the shock struts for a tipup canopy. A tapped plate eliminates the need to get a wrench into the top longeron assy to hold the nuts.

FWIW,

Charlie
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-16-2018, 04:15 PM
DanH's Avatar
DanH DanH is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 08A
Posts: 7,656
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyconnell View Post
Darn, I'm a bit of a tool junkie. Was hoping someone was going to give me an excuse here.
Ok, permission granted

Seriously, there are a number of nutplate locations where frictional locking power just isn't necessary. For example, I don't hesitate to tap the four nutplates holding an EFIS in the panel. Same for the seat pan/mid floorboard/footwell panels in the -8. Even if those screws came out (they don't) it wouldn't hurt anything. Locking just makes inspection a pain in the butt.

Lockers are for locations that would create a hazard to flight.
__________________
Dan Horton
RV-8 SS
Barrett IO-390
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-16-2018, 05:00 PM
scard's Avatar
scard scard is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cedar Park, TX
Posts: 2,772
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyconnell View Post
Darn, I'm a bit of a tool junkie. Was hoping someone was going to give me an excuse here.
< If Dan is going to get serious >

Hmm, me too. But, "He who dies with ... wins." I don't look for excuses, for I spend a lot of time seeking forgiveness .

I promise, you WILL find an incredible use for that "tap and die set" (insert whatever $$,$$$ tool) to fix the tiniest thing around the house in an instant. Then it is up to you to channel you're inner Steve Jobs, "It's Magical isn't it!?".

Just be careful what you ask for. A wise family member said the other day, "You can only play with so many fun tools at a time. Then you have to hire people to operate them. That turns into work real quick and takes all the fun out of it."

Oh, I'm sorry, you were just talking about a tap and die set. FORGEDABOUDIT!.
__________________
Scott Card
RV-9A N4822C flying 1900+hrs. / Cedar Park, TX
Track
RV8 Building - fuselage / showplanes canopy (Done!)
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:37 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.