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RV-12: Engine Mounting Cap Screws Inspection

Added one more image to Gary's top shroud modification posted in this thread a few days ago. He added a lower nutplate. This nutplate along with the others have to be positioned to miss the fins.

There is a downside to his modification. To remove the cover to access the screws, the mainfold has to removed, you have to drain a bit of the coolant and the one water hose has to be removed.
 
Possible different design - -

I like Gary's basic design. I might suggest puting a small alum plate UNDER the forward part of the patch as well as on top, and pop rivet the pieces to the patch. This could allow the front edge to be slipped over the forward piece, and use a screw similar to Gary's design at the rear. This would not require removing the coolant hose. If I have any reason to go back into mine again, I think I will do it that way to make it quick to remove the patch if desired without removing the hose and associated parts.


John Bender
 
Good Idea

Good idea John. Where were you last weekend. Im going to modify that piece per your suggestions next time I go in.

Marty have you done anything yet?

Gary
 
Good idea John. Where were you last weekend. Im going to modify that piece per your suggestions next time I go in.

Marty have you done anything yet?

Gary

Have not done anything, yet. Stuck at home on home project. I like John's idea. Sounds very workable. And removes one disadvantage.

Gary, what would then have to be removed to access the one lower screw? The carb? The carb drip tray? Anything else?
 
Washers...

Received some Nord-Loc washers from McMasters today. Planning to take them to the hangar tomorrow to see if they will fit in the holes. They measure 0.65" in diameter vs. 0.633 for the furnished split washers. Your can see in this picture they are slightly larger than the bolt head. If need be they can be slightly reduced in diameter.
1108972216_P2g99-S.jpg

I am planning to use the Nord-Locs, with no Locktite, and see how they work out. This will allow putting a torque wrench on the bolts every 25 hours, like the Nord-Loced prop bolts.
Still have work to do, need to make the shroud modification, I like Gary's removeable cap, with John's mod. That will allow getting on the upper left bolt with a standard allen socket rather than a ball-end key, which I don't trust.

Tony
 
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Not There Yet

From the guys that have the problem, any sugestions for those who have not got to this stage? What would you have done during construction had you known the problem?
 
Hey Jim - -

Add Loctite BLUE generously to the 4 bolts. Made a removable cap for that corner of the air duct. That is about it.

John Bender
 
Stay tuned...

From the guys that have the problem, any sugestions for those who have not got to this stage? What would you have done during construction had you known the problem?

So far, there are a several unproven (and unofficial) ideas. Nothing is for sure yet, but the body of knowledge is increasing rapidly.

Tony
 
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Unfortunately

From the guys that have the problem, any sugestions for those who have not got to this stage? What would you have done during construction had you known the problem?

Unfortunately you cannot do anything during construction or you are signing a fraudulent compliance statement at the end. So far, Van's has authorized changing the shroud which will be repeated soon in a revision to that page in your construction manual. These changes you read about are legal because they are made AFTER the fly-off period. With this aircraft, everything must be done as directed BEFORE the aircraft is completed. I would be very careful about making changes beforehand...you could end up with a large yard ornament.
 
Received some Nord-Loc washers from McMasters today. Planning to take them to the hangar tomorrow to see if they will fit in the holes. They measure 0.65" in diameter vs. 0.633 for the furnished split washers. Your can see in this picture they are slightly larger than the bolt head. If need be they can be slightly reduced in diameter.
1108972216_P2g99-S.jpg

I am planning to use the Nord-Locs, with no Locktite, and see how they work out. This will allow putting a torque wrench on the bolts every 25 hours, like the Nord-Loced prop bolts.
Still have work to do, need to make the shroud modification, I like Gary's removeable cap, with John's mod. That will allow getting on the upper left bolt with a standard allen socket rather than a ball-end key, which I don't trust.

Tony

And still with the 26# or are you upping it to 30#? Curious because I have some on the way as well. Not really worried about the increase when removed...doesn't seem to harm our prop clamp and I have taken those off several times. And re-checked them several times as well.
 
And still with the 26# or are you upping it to 30#? Curious because I have some on the way as well. Not really worried about the increase when removed...doesn't seem to harm our prop clamp and I have taken those off several times. And re-checked them several times as well.

The Nord-Loc site indicates that a thread lubricant helps these washers stay secure, and they reduce the dry torque by a small percentage to compensate for the lubricant on the threads. I am thinking right now that I want to use a lubricant and use 26# torque.

I found that the washers will not go easily into the holes in the motor mount so it will be necessary to reduce their diameter by about 0.015 to make them 0.635 or no bigger than the bolt head.
Here is how I am going to do it:
1110381087_fe9Nk-M.jpg

Chucked up in the drill press on a hardware store bolt (note it has a smaller head than the motor screws) and file and polish with emory.

Tony
 
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INTERESTING BOLT TESTING TODAY

RV-12EngineMountingBoltTesting100_0301.jpg


I want to start by saying the testing results I got today are only for - MY - interest, but I am sharing in case someone else would be 'interested' in them. I am not saying they will apply perfectly in this case, but I found them interesting.

I have a friend that runs a machine shop, and he gave me a piece of 6061 alum to do my test with. I do NOT know exactly what the 912 block is made of. I felt it would give me a decent idea of what MIGHT be close to the engine block. Using oil instead of Loctite was only to keep the threads clean for more testing, but I felt it would give me a good idea of the difference between dry and lubed. I drilled the block to 11/32", and tapped it to 10M X 1.50 thread. I used a steel washer to simulate the lockwasher provided, and simulate the possible torque it creates. I used a 10M X 20M, 8.8 cap screw. I felt it was similar to the actual amount of threads in the engine block.

The results are :

DRY, as shown - 85# the torque wrench clicked solid 3 times.
At 90#, the threads started to give.

OILED, at 80#, clicked solid 3 times. ( used other side of alum block )
At 85#, the threads started to pull.

MY OPINION - I feel at 26 or 30#, we are well under stressing the bolts or threads.
MY OPINION, Loctite is the best answer for now.

John Bender
 
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The Nord-Loc site indicates that a thread lubricant helps these washers stay secure, and they reduce the dry torque by a small percentage to compensate for the lubricant on the threads. I am thinking right now that I want to use a lubricant and use 26# torque.

I found that the washers will not go easily into the holes in the motor mount so it will be necessary to reduce their diameter by about 0.015 to make them 0.635 or no bigger than the bolt head.
Here is how I am going to do it:
1110381087_fe9Nk-M.jpg

Chucked up in the drill press on a hardware store bolt (note it has a smaller head than the motor screws) and file and polish with emory.

Tony

Looks good. Mine should be here shortly. Thanks for all the beta work! Like you I agree with the lubricant because of what they mentioned on their website. Can't say I was crazy about their choice though because of the low flash point of graphite. Have you chosen something else?
 
Looks good. Mine should be here shortly. Thanks for all the beta work! Like you I agree with the lubricant because of what they mentioned on their website. Can't say I was crazy about their choice though because of the low flash point of graphite. Have you chosen something else?

Had to re-look at the Nordlock website. They say for stainless or large diameter bolting a thread lubricant is beneficial and they list the reasons.

It is well known that a stainless bolt into a stainless body or nut is subject to galling, thus the recommendation for a lube. In our application, a coated capscrew into an aluminum casting, galling and drag is not really an issue. Same reasoning applies to the prop bolting with nordlock washers. Sensenich did not specify a lube.

Lightly oiling a bolt or using graphite, changes the k-factor. (T=k * F * D)
 
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It is well known that a stainless bolt into a stainless body or nut is subject to galling, thus the recommendation for a lube. In our application, a coated capscrew into an aluminum casting, galling and drag is not really an issue. Same reasoning applies to the prop bolting with nordlock washers. Sensenich did not specify a lube.

Makes sense.
 
Agreed

It is well known that a stainless bolt into a stainless body or nut is subject to galling, thus the recommendation for a lube. In our application, a coated capscrew into an aluminum casting, galling and drag is not really an issue. Same reasoning applies to the prop bolting with nordlock washers. Sensenich did not specify a lube.

Makes sense.

Copy, lube probably not appropriate.
I did find that I could not file the SS Nord-Locs, they seem harder than my files. I also have the coated steel washers and they are very hard too, but can be reduced in diameter with files. I have a machinst friend who probably could grind the SS ones, but am considering whether the coated steel would be better. As a side note, I bolted some test washers up in an M10 bolt and nut to see if 26-30 ft-lb would lock them up. It does. Then to undo them is interesting. There are 12 ramps in the washers, so it takes 30° of rotation before they snap. During that 30° if feels all the world like you are pushing against a spring, which you are. Takes some getting used to. I noticed the same strange feeling when I undid the Nord-loced brake bolts.

I think the Nord-Locs could be reused 3 or 4 times, but each time there is a little wear on the teeth on the outer surfaces that grip the bolt. This occurs more on loosening, not on tightening. I think I would replace them after unlocking them twice.

Tony
 
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Posted this on the "Notice" thread, but felt it is gemain to this one as well.
Just catching up. Did not get to do my planned check on my engine bolts this past weekend as a kitchen floor project was assigned a higher priority by a girl I married a long time ago. I did get to talk with Lockwood's top Tech guy tho and his counsel is to use the blue Loctite AND keep the torque at 312 inch lbs. He feels the lower the torque that holds in an aluminum case , the better. Since some of you have reported the successful holding with the blue Loctite that makes sense. I know some have gone to the 360 in lbs, but not all unless I missed it in reading the posts. He also felt the lubricity provide by the Loctite would cause little if any additional torque on the bolts. Regarding the Nordloks he felt they were not necessary as the Loctite should do the job. I will check my bolts at the earliest opportunity (and before flying) and will provide results. I would appreciate any comments this information generates. Thanks.
Dick Seiders
 
ditto for this post today.
Received an e mail from Rotax Tech today stating that after his discussing the torque issue with Van's today the 312 in.lbs was in error per Vans so Rotax says go with the 360 in.lbs. per Rotax specs. He did not mention the blue Loctite, but in view of his earlier statement I would presume the blue would be used in conjunction with the 360 in.lbs. torque level.
Dick Seiders
 
Tony, You are on the right path to reduce the OD of the Norlock washers. Take the mandrel set up you have in the drill press and put it in a hand drill. With the drill spinning in the opposite direction of the bench grinder gently touch the washers on a spinning wheel. Dress the grinding wheel of the bench grinder so the wheel is clean and true. Go slow and square to the wheel and you will achieve a very nice result. Use the spinning 3M wheel to debur up the edges.

Let us know how it turns out.
 
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If anyone has any doubt about how Rotax feels about Loctite check out the maintenance manual 05-00-00 page 7;)
 
Got to do the check on 120186 today, the upper left and lower left were tight, the upper right required about 1/8 turn to come back to full torque and the lower right was missing.

Found that it was necessary to remove the right drip pan to get a proper tool to the upper right bolt.

The plan is Loctite 242 and return to service. Then watch every 25 hours for at least 100 hours.

Best regards,
Vern
 
OK missing is not something I want to hear at all regarding an engine mount bolt. How many hours?

Got to do the check on 120186 today, the upper left and lower left were tight, the upper right required about 1/8 turn to come back to full torque and the lower right was missing.

Found that it was necessary to remove the right drip pan to get a proper tool to the upper right bolt.

The plan is Loctite 242 and return to service. Then watch every 25 hours for at least 100 hours.

Best regards,
Vern
 
snip....lower right was missing...snip

Best regards,
Vern

:eek: Wow! Keep finding this stuff and we may see our first AD issued against Van's...

I wish you guys the best of luck finding a fix for this one!

Falling out is really bad but so is a loose bolt in there wallowing out the hole. That sure is an expensive case to have to replace or repair...As well designed as the rest of the RV12 seems to be, this shocks me that this was put out there this way.
 
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If anyone has any doubt about how Rotax feels about Loctite check out the maintenance manual 05-00-00 page 7;)

I reviewed the ROTAX Line Maintenance page. What are you trying to tell us?? It is merely a list of consumables??? The manual SPECIFICALLY tells us when and when not to use loctite.

In the case of the engine mount bolting, all of the USA repair centers seem to be using blue loctite for this bolting even tho the line maintenance manual does NOT suggest it.
 
Sorry I should have indicated that 120186 has just under 40 hours total time and the 25 hour inspection was done by Lockwood, they did not check the upper left as the shroud was not moved, they may have checked the others or not.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Think of the poor slobs flying around in 12's that are NOT on this forum!

I posted the same a week ago. Van's has always sent an e-mail to the RV-12 owners when an issue has arisen.

I have not received such an e-mail for this VERY important AIRWORTHINESS issue. Van's Aircraft is ON my RV-12 nameplate. Should I not expect more??

Yes, a post is on their website. BUT, an e-mail to all owners would be most appropriate. I am aslo worried about the guy that is flying and really does not monitor VAF or the net.

This has been and will continue to be my only beef with Van's with respect to this issue. Van's should have made the effort to contact all. Sad!!

Will I build another..... Will I recommend the RV-12 to others...........Let's see how this issue comes to conclusion.
 
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I can certainly understand taking a careful look at the whole problem rather than some quick and silly stuff, but some sort of warning would be of no cost to them while they engineered a top notch solution. After all, keeping a bolt from coming loose on an aircraft is not something that has never been solved before.
 
I can certainly understand taking a careful look at the whole problem rather than some quick and silly stuff, but some sort of warning would be of no cost to them while they engineered a top notch solution. After all, keeping a bolt from coming loose on an aircraft is not something that has never been solved before.

I agree. However if you read the first couple of lines of the Service Notice, it is quite clear that Vans regard checking of these bolts "at regular intervals" as a Rotax maintenance requirement. As they go to some trouble to quote the relevant Rotax Maintenance Manual references, it's probably hard to dispute this.

They have also flagged the seriousness of these bolts coming loose by recommending a check "before further flight". This, together with the modification allowing access to all the bolts for inspection purposes, is probably all they need to do to satisfy their duty of care obligations.

However, I think an initial email to all Rotax purchasers alerting them to the problem, and advising them to check the Service Notice would have been a responsible move, and avoided some of the negative comments that have been expressed here.

I also doubt that they will come up with any recommendations for securing the bolts, as it is clear from the notice that these are regarded by Vans as Rotax bolts, not Van's bolts. If that is the case, then perhaps Rotax will issue something, but Vans are probably not in a position, legally, to go any further at this point. At least, not without input from Rotax.
 
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I agree. However if you read the first couple of lines of the Service Notice, it is quite clear that Vans regard checking of these bolts "at regular intervals" as a Rotax maintenance requirement. As they go to some trouble to quote the relevant Rotax Maintenance Manual references, it's probably hard to dispute this.

Rotax makes airplane engines, not airplanes. Their engines are installed into airframes. The Rotax Installation manual, Page 35 states the bolts used to secure the engine to the airframe are the responsibility of the airframe manufacturer, that would be Vans Aircraft. Other airframe manufacturers have issued SB's to cover these exact same bolts dating back to 1999. The real question is; Why can't Vans Aircraft step up to the plate and warn their customers of what is clearly an airworthiness issue. Clearly, IMHO this is their responsibility.
 
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(In regards to Verns post on Lockwood)

Vern, if they did not check one of the bolts which is a required item in the 25 hour inspection how did the sign off that they completed the inspection, frankly that is disturbing, they just decide not to check a bolt when it is difficult? If this is true I would never seriously consider using them again, especially since bolts have been found (or rather not) to be missing.
 
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(In regards to Verns post on Lockwood)

Vern, if they did not check one of the bolts which is a required item in the 25 hour inspection how did the sign off that they completed the inspection, frankly that is disturbing, they just decide not to check a bolt when it is difficult? If this is true I would never seriously consider using them again, especially since bolts have been found (or rather not) to be missing.

You should be asking not Vern, not Lockwood but the company with the highest time RV-12s. Please do not crucify anyone for sharing! Sharing such information may save your arse.
 
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Hi Chris,

The bolt that they could not have checked was fine, for what that is worth, we can all have bad days, perhaps this was one of theirs. The only reason I mentioned it is if they did check the other three, then one fell out in about 10 hours, so if we are to set a reasonable interval to see that the bolts are still tight what should it be? With the data presented on this list I would expect the FAA to issue an AD Note requiring the checking of the bolts every 5 hours if they did AD Notes on experimental aircraft, we are lucky that they do not but if we follow Van's current instructions (install the bolts and split ring lock washer dry to the called out torque) then we should be checking the torque about every five hours. Forgive me if this does not sound like the kind of fun I wanted to have.

I think with blue loctite we should be good with a drop of Torque Seal and a visual inspection at 25 hours for now and if the situation remains stable then perhaps fifty hours which would match up with the oil change interval and it would not be much of an issue.

The above is only one man's thoughts, you should come to your own conclusions and do what you need to, to keep your aircraft safe to fly.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Have any loosened following previous confirmation they were tight?

I asked this question as part of a post within the related thread a few days ago but have not seen any replies so I will ask it again.

Has anyone found a loose bolt following a prior confirmation that they were still fully torqued? In other words, has anyone else definitively checked all of them at say 25 hours and then had them come loose later? Sounds like Vern does not know for sure whether his were checked given that he did not do the check himself. This seems like an important question, as it may suggest that if they do not loosen during the initial 25 hours, perhaps they will not subsequently. Also helps those of us who found ours tight at 25 hours to gauge how frequently we need to recheck them.

Jeff
 
Read back thru this thread. John's (okiejohn) info on page 3 of this thread may be the answer you are looking for. There are a couple of others.
 
THE FACTS ARE - -

The bolts come loose - PERIOD ! Does it make a difference when - really ! They come loose. Loose bolts will create lots of problems in the threads.

Put on plenty of Loctite 'blue', and paint mark them, then LOOK at them as often as you feel comfortable. If you have good threads, put on plenty of Loctite, and *THEN* you have a problem - that is when we need to hear from you ! I think we have the solution. I have about 100 hours on mine since I put Loctite on them. HAVE NOT MOVED ! That is good enough for me. DO NOT BREAK THEM LOOSE to check them. If they have not moved, they are tight enough. If you feel the need to take one out, clean the threads and do it all over again, but just LOOK at them, don't try to tighten them or you will break loose the Loctite and then it will not be as affective.

John Bender
 
Rotax makes airplane engines, not airplanes. Their engines are installed into airframes. The Rotax Installation manual, Page 35 states the bolts used to secure the engine to the airframe are the responsibility of the airframe manufacturer, that would be Vans Aircraft. Other airframe manufacturers have issued SB's to cover these exact same bolts dating back to 1999. The real question is; Why can't Vans Aircraft step up to the plate and warn their customers of what is clearly an airworthiness issue. Clearly, IMHO this is their responsibility.

Larry, I agree entirely that VAN's should have been much more pro-active in dealing with this critical safety issue, and I can only assume it's a case of "responsibility shared, responsibility halved". I'm just trying to understand how they may be thinking based on their actions so far.
 
Hi Chris,

The bolt that they could not have checked was fine, for what that is worth, we can all have bad days, perhaps this was one of theirs. The only reason I mentioned it is if they did check the other three, then one fell out in about 10 hours, so if we are to set a reasonable interval to see that the bolts are still tight what should it be? With the data presented on this list I would expect the FAA to issue an AD Note requiring the checking of the bolts every 5 hours if they did AD Notes on experimental aircraft, we are lucky that they do not but if we follow Van's current instructions (install the bolts and split ring lock washer dry to the called out torque) then we should be checking the torque about every five hours. Forgive me if this does not sound like the kind of fun I wanted to have.

I think with blue loctite we should be good with a drop of Torque Seal and a visual inspection at 25 hours for now and if the situation remains stable then perhaps fifty hours which would match up with the oil change interval and it would not be much of an issue.

The above is only one man's thoughts, you should come to your own conclusions and do what you need to, to keep your aircraft safe to fly.

Best regards,
Vern

Thanks Vern,

I was not looking to crucify anyone but it concerns me if someone I am paying to do a thorough required inspection of a machine that could kill me if improperly maintained misses a step, i start wondering what other steps did they miss or just not complete. No one is perfect but thats why we use checklists, I would suspect they have checklists for the inspections, I know I would.

if they just chose not to do it because the shroud was difficult they should inform you of that and let you make a decision.

I truly hope it was a once in a long while event but ask yourself what if the tech "forgot" to torque your prop and it came off in flight.

I digress, and from everything I hear and see (until this) Lockwood is a first rate organization so not trying to beat them up to badly here but....

I truly hope everyone continues to share information like this good bad or in-different, it,s what makes a difference in our hobby.
 
I reviewed the ROTAX Line Maintenance page. What are you trying to tell us?? It is merely a list of consumables??? The manual SPECIFICALLY tells us when and when not to use loctite.

In the case of the engine mount bolting, all of the USA repair centers seem to be using blue loctite for this bolting even tho the line maintenance manual does NOT suggest it.

DUH...... This tells me that Rotax is routinely using Loctite to secure BOLTS and has proof that the product works. As well as properties of the the different types of thread locking products.

BTW 120367 has 19.5 hours and the 3 bolts I check are good but I used blue Locktite on all the fasteners without self locking female ends.

Marty, I'm sorry I made such a stupid post. I thought it might be of interest to some of folks with an imagination!!!!!!!
 
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Loose bolts on N7185A, SN#120164, with 52 hours

Checked the bottom two bolts right after Larry called me (Thanks Larry) and found the bottom right tight. The bottom left needed about 1/8 turn. Was not able to check the top two bolts at that time because of the inaccesability. The top right looked OK but I really did not look very close at the top left. Just assumed that it was OK. Did a closer visual check today of the top left bolt. The bolt head is just about even with the outside edge of the engine mount. How loose it is (how many turns counter clockwise) I won't know until I can get in there but as a result I am grounded until I can get my 12 to a heated work area. This will take a while. A real bummer.
 
Heard from Rotax Tech again today. He was not willing to commit on the blue Loctite, but I have read enough to feel firm on the 360 torque setting, blue Loctite, and torque seal with checks at each oil change. Until something better comes along, if it does that's where I am going.
Dick Seiders
 
What is Going On?

Heard from Rotax Tech again today. He was not willing to commit on the blue Loctite, but I have read enough to feel firm on the 360 torque setting, blue Loctite, and torque seal with checks at each oil change. Until something better comes along, if it does that's where I am going.
Dick Seiders

Certainly is curious. Bolts coming out right and left. Van's doesn't care, the Feds don't care (or don't read VAF...yah right). Those that Loctite swear by it, but neither the engine manufacturer nor the aircraft manufacturer...whom both recommend Loctite in much of the remaining assembly will not do so in this instance. What a bizarre situation! Of course no one did anything about the Zenith wings coming off until how many crashed? Am I missing a liablity issue here? Guess we'll find out when the first 12 smokes a hole in the dirt.
 
Certainly is curious. Bolts coming out right and left. Van's doesn't care, the Feds don't care (or don't read VAF...yah right). Those that Loctite swear by it, but neither the engine manufacturer nor the aircraft manufacturer...whom both recommend Loctite in much of the remaining assembly will not do so in this instance. What a bizarre situation! Of course no one did anything about the Zenith wings coming off until how many crashed? Am I missing a liablity issue here? Guess we'll find out when the first 12 smokes a hole in the dirt.

Well said Pete.

The silence from Vans is deafening.
 
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Two main issues

There are two main issues:

ISSUE 1. Notify RV-12 owners that the engine mount bolts are loosening and falling out.
This is a moral issue. Most of us would like to see RV-12 owners immediately notified to check the bolts. Until then, bolts are slowly vibrating out. RV-12 owners who have had engine bolts loosen can warn others by contacting aviation magazines and the EAA and the FAA. If the magazine editors received letters from several builders, they might write an article or publish the "letters to editors". The word will be spread.

ISSUE 2. Preventing the bolts from loosening.
Split ring lock washers do not work as evidenced by laboratory experiments and RV-12 field experience. It would be nice if we received official guidance on this issue. But manufacturer's do not know any more about solving this problem than the builders. Regardless of engineering theory, it is what works in the field that counts. Rotax mechanics have been using blue Loctite with success, even though they might be reluctant to officially recommend it due to liability concerns. And using blue Loctite seems to be the consensus among RV-12 builders. Nothing is perfect and Loctite has disadvantages. It has temperature limits, should not be disturbed by periodic torque checks, and makes removing bolts difficult. But it works and will keep the bolts from loosening. Another possible solution is using Nord-Lock washers. They work well holding the brake and propeller bolts. Nord-Lock washers are not affected by normal engine block temperatures; they can be periodically checked for torque; and the bolts can be easily removed with a wrench. But regardless of theory, they need to be proven in the field.

We can complain and try to influence others but we can not control what they do. What we can do is spread the word to other builders, perhaps with the help of national and international media. And we can ensure that our own engine mounting bolts do not come loose.
Joe
 
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