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The wings look great sir! Great job on the build thus far, and thank you so much for the pictures! :)

Just out of curiousity, do you have an estimate on how much each wing weighs? Thanks... :eek:
 
I had not been following this tread because I wrongly figured no one had received their wing kit yet. It stunned me how quickly this is going together, even for an experienced builder like Jim.

Jim, are the holes punched to the proper size or do you still need to drill and deburr them?
 
Tip Alignment and Flaperons

Jim,

Great effort in building and supporting your fellow builders.

Could you tell us exactly which skin panel you were adjusting
for back drilling? Was that the trailing edge close-out skin?

I'm very interested to see how those long flaperons go together
and how much effort is needed to keep them from twisting
during construction.

Best regards,

Sam
 
Answers to questions 4-30-08

Here are answers to question that have been posted lately.

I don't know the weight of the wing, but it is easily handled by my wife and me.

The storage cradle is eight feet long. The wings are supported with the leading edge down by a carpet sling . You can build one with four 2 x 4' studs, some old carpet, and four swivel wheels.

All of the holes are full size and don't need to be deburred.

The skin that is back drilled is the bottom tip close out skin. You rivet the pre-punched holes in the bottom and turn the wing right side up and adjust the tip so that the trailing edge is parallel to the wing. Then you back drill the holes on the trailing edge which are punched to #40 size out to #30 holes and rivet them. My tips were perfectly aligned with no adjustment needed.

You don't need to worry about twist in the flaperon. All of the holes are pre-punched like the wing and everything will line up perfectly with no twist possible. You have to admire how well this kit is designed and produced.
 
Seeing all of this and how fast it is going together makes me think "WOW". Vans really are doing a great job with this. You too Jim!
 
More construction pictures 5-1-08

Here are some pictures of flaperon construction. I don't know what I did, but I ended up posting the pictures and they did not come over with the captions so I re-did them, but when I went to the public albums, they were already there. Beats me what happened. I don't know how to delete one of the albums so you get two for the money. Free, of course. When you go to the album, click on public galery and look at the other one that has the captions. Here is the link: http://picasaweb.google.com/JimCone1941/RV12Construction510802
 
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You make these parts ...

Uh ohhh ... You make these parts for the flaperons using the raw material ... now that looks a bit tricky to me ... at first, when I read your caption under the accompanied picture I thought you were kidding ... but no joke, huh? I guess a drill press is in my future as well as learning how to use one. :( Oh well, I didn't want to wait another year for the Quick Build ... gulp! :eek:
 
Fabricated parts

Hi,

I confess I am as green as Jerry. Please can you advise how you fabricated those flaperon parts - bandsaw?, hacksaw? grinder?

Jerry, I just got delivery of my pillar drill. And I have ordered the Avery tools kit as soon as I got the mail. $1375.

Cheers...Keith
 
Time out...

Uh ohhh ... You make these parts for the flaperons using the raw material ... now that looks a bit tricky to me ... at first, when I read your caption under the accompanied picture I thought you were kidding ... but no joke, huh? I guess a drill press is in my future as well as learning how to use one. :( Oh well, I didn't want to wait another year for the Quick Build ... gulp! :eek:

Before any one runs out to purchase tools they should consider this... The RV-12 kit assembly processes were tested (and the manual written) using only the tools in the tool list. This does not mean that other tools wouldn't be nice to have but they are not required to complete the assembly process.
 
Tools required

Before any one runs out to purchase tools they should consider this... The RV-12 kit assembly processes were tested (and the manual written) using only the tools in the tool list. This does not mean that other tools wouldn't be nice to have but they are not required to complete the assembly process.


Scott is right on about the tools required. I have all sorts of power tools that make the job easier, but those things that I made could be done with a hack saw, a file, a drill and a tap. The nice finish was done with a Scotch Bright roloc pad on a die grinder. By the way, I hate to change tools in the die grinders so I have 15 of them, each with a different tool in them. I get kidded all the time because I have 36 hammers and 40 or so types of pliers. I am a real tool nut.
 
More construction pictures 5-6-08

After a couple of days having to work late, I finally got back to the plane. I worked on the flaperons. Here is the link to the latest pictures 5-6-08: http://picasaweb.google.com/JimCone1941/RV12Construction5608

Sharp eyed viewers will notice that I made a mistake on the pivot brackets in the last set of pictures. I did not make them the correct width. Fortunately I caught my error when I started to back drill them to the spar. They were cut to the correct width and drilled to the spar. I am up to 120 hours in the last picture. I should finish the flaperons in a couple of days.
 
Great pictures! Thanks!

Jim ... these pictures are great ... you can't imagine how much these pictures help 1st. time builders. You make it look so easy. My kit is due in the next couple of days and I feel like "I can really handle it." You're a confident builder who builds confidence in other builders! :)

Thanks again, so much. :)
 
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Flaperons done. Final wing kit pictures.

I finished the flaperons. I have posted the pictures at: http://picasaweb.google.com/JimCone1941/RV12Construction5908
Total time to complete the entire wing kit was 130 hours. Now I will be like you; waiting for the next kit. Let's hope for good weather so that the testing can be completed and the tail kit released.

I hope you enjoy the RVator story as much as I did. Every word of it is true ;).
 
congratulations!

Hey Jim,
Congratulations on finishing the wing kit!
I was wondering if you could tell me the overall dimensions of the completed wing: wingtip to inboard end of spar, and wing chord.
I'm just trying to figure out my workshop, as I expect are many others who have been monitoring your progress with great interest...!
thanks!
 
Nice Job

Looks like the wing kit is easy or is it just you making it look easy! I built a Sonex once and was around a Rans S6ES and this kit is miles ahead on engineering, its designed to be built.

What else to you expect, it's a Van's.
 
Hey Jim,
Congratulations on finishing the wing kit!
I was wondering if you could tell me the overall dimensions of the completed wing: wingtip to inboard end of spar, and wing chord.
I'm just trying to figure out my workshop, as I expect are many others who have been monitoring your progress with great interest...!
thanks!

The main part of the wing is just shy of 12 feet. The main chord is about 4 feet. The tip extends aft 10 inches and the hinges extend about 5 inches. The spar stub is 3 feet, 8 inches.
 
It is easy!

Looks like the wing kit is easy or is it just you making it look easy! I built a Sonex once and was around a Rans S6ES and this kit is miles ahead on engineering, its designed to be built.

What else to you expect, it's a Van's.

It is easy! I have a lot of experience building, but there was nothing that would challenge anyone. Read the plans carefully an follow them step by step. It is a good idea to read the entire plan before you do anything so you get an idea of how things go together. Then read the entire section again before you start a particular task. Take your time and have fun. It really is easy and fun.
 
Handy Grinder

I believe Gerry mentioned buying a grinder. You will find that, when
fitted with your Scotchbrite wheel, it will be one of the most useful
tools in the workshop. The wheels come with a 1" plastic bushing
and a 1/2" hole. The bushing can be machined for a larger spindle
size, if necessary. As Jim mentioned, the smaller diameters used
on die grinders are equally handly.

Happy grinding.
 
Grinder, drill press & air compressor

It looks like having the grinder and drill press will be very helpful in putting the 12 together. Can someone recommend models for both? Also, I've ordered the Avery tool kit with the rivet puller. I've never owned an air tool and would appreciate advice on what size compressor and tank to buy to build the RV12.
 
Kit #2

We will be putting the skins on the wings today. The build to this point is fast. The pneumatic riveter from Harbor Freight died at the beginning (thats 2). It is just mostly spewing a mist of hydraulic fluid as it pulls the rivets so I have been pulling them. I will get another pneumatic puller before going on.

I had to buy a couple of electrical connectors that were not in the kit. Otherwise it is a great kit. I really appreciate Jim Cone's pictures. They have been a big help and a reference.
 
Power Tools

I am reminded of the quote by Tim the tool man when his wife mentioned she
wanted another baby, 'b-b-but I've got 168 power tools!' You can never have
too many.

Compressor size is usually determined by how much drilling, grinding and
painting you do - these ops are the large volume users of air. Speak to
other (local) builders and find what they are happy using; the brands they recommend and the vendors they would use again. With the previous kits,
builders have found 12-15cfm (cubic feet per minute) deliveries work well
for most work.

Good building,

Sam
 
deburring

My RV12 kit has been shipped and will be delivered to my home this coming Firday.

This past weekeknd I attended an RV builders skills class at Grove Air in Avon, Indiana. It was a very good class and I feel that I really learned a lot about RV kits, tools, and metal working skills.

They had a quick build RV10 and RV7A kit in the shop that we could see "in progress".

One thing that was stressed over and over and over again is that every edge of every piece must be deburred and every hole must be deburred. We spent hours of the class doing just this.

This is really freaking me out as it looks like it could take at least 100 hours to debur the ribs - and the 12 has those scalloped edges on the ribs -- !!! Yikes!!

Jim Clone says that you only debur the holes that drill - Jim, can this be true? What about the edges of all of the materials? What about the edges of the ribs? Did you file them? Did you Scotch Brite them after filing?

I am kind of freaking about this!
 
Jim Clone says that you only debur the holes that drill - Jim, can this be true? What about the edges of all of the materials? What about the edges of the ribs? Did you file them? Did you Scotch Brite them after filing?

I am kind of freaking about this!

Not to chime in on your 12 site but go buy you a bench grinder, get a scotch brite wheel and clean your rib edges up.......takes about a minute or two per rib....as for deburring holes, go get a battery powered slow speed driver, put the deburring tool in the it and deburr away....throw the carpel tunnel deburring hand tool deep into your tool box.

Have fun.
 
Deburring tool

Hi Dana:

Yes thanks for the suggestion. I have already ordered a deburring tool for my electric screwdriver and am going to order a scotch brite wheel for both a bench grinder and for a "die grinder" when/if i get an air compressor.

BUT there are still two issues:

1. At the RV training class they told us that simply running the edges down the scotch brite wheel was not good enough - that you must to hand file them first.

2. The edges of the ribs on the 12 are not straight. They are scalloped (to save weight?). So, it almost looks as though I may have to hand emery every single scallop? This will take many months.

I had not figured on this when I decided to undertake this project!
 
If the aluminum edges you finish are soft to the touch, the airplane will outlast your greatgrandchildren before you have problems with stress risers causing cracking...oh wait!! That's just an opinion not supported by engineering data! Seriously, on big flat edges like wing skins a file is appropriate, (you need to get the die marks off and have a flat edge), but on most surfaces, you'll figure out how to run it down the scotchbrite wheel and/or hit it with some emory cloth and it will be fine. I suggest not running the piece perpendicular to the rotation of the deburring wheel, but parallel to it...once you figure out the "right way" you'll be off and running. Thin pieces will need to be moved quicker so you don't make gouge marks, thicker pieces will go a little slower. There's no good reason to spend months in the deburring process.
 
The "V" shaped edge deburring tool is the fastest way to bebur the edges. Two passes, one in each direction, and you're done. A file down the side is unnecessary.

Ideally you want many deburring tools to choose from, including:

V-nose
Speed Deburring
Swivel Head
Small inexpensive files
Scotch Brite pads (green and gray)
Scotch-Brite wheels for a die-grinder and bench grinder

I don't like deburring tools in a drill. They quickly can become big drill bits, making big problems.
 
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Getting off topic a bit here...

This thread is a "sticky" - and like similar threads for the other RV's - is intended for folks to post a picture or update on their project. We've kind of gotten off into build tips and other discussions. Maybe we could have a moderator pull these off or start a new thread with all these other conversations.

Respectfully suggested... :)

DJ
 
Deburring edges

Hi Dana:

Yes thanks for the suggestion. I have already ordered a deburring tool for my electric screwdriver and am going to order a scotch brite wheel for both a bench grinder and for a "die grinder" when/if i get an air compressor.

BUT there are still two issues:

1. At the RV training class they told us that simply running the edges down the scotch brite wheel was not good enough - that you must to hand file them first.

2. The edges of the ribs on the 12 are not straight. They are scalloped (to save weight?). So, it almost looks as though I may have to hand emery every single scallop? This will take many months.


I had not figured on this when I decided to undertake this project!

I respectfully disagree about deburring the rib flanges. If you just knock the burr off of the edge so that it does not scratch the wing skin and smooth the edge, that will be enough in my opinion. The ribs are not subject to much bending like some other parts. I used a small Scotch Brite wheel on a die grinder and ran the grove which forms in the wheel down the rib flanges and deburred both sides at the same time by holding the tool at a sight angle. The ribs were very smooth after just one quick pass. Also, I do not believe that it is necessary to file the edges to get a smooth edge. A Scotch Brite wheel will make the edge as smooth as a baby's butt and that is all that is required. Cracks propagate where there is a rough edge that is subject to bending or vibration. If, when you run your finger down the edge, you do not feel any roughness, you are good to go. For those who want to file their edges, go for it, but it isn't necessary to get a really smooth edge.
 
Jim Cone on vacation

I would not normally post this, but since I get so many questions about my RV12 I want you all to know that I will be on vacation in Europe from May 15th until June1 and will not have access to the web to answer questions about my plane or building techniques. I'll check my private messages when I get back and respond then.
 
Wing progress

My kit #0002, is going together quickly. My partner and I have finished one wing except for the wing tip.

My only advise is to read very carefully and literally. The only mistakes I have made is when I look at something and think "surely they wanted this riveted now" and they actually didn't. Or I would think "they didn't really want both of those ends drilled and tapped" and they did. When I do something because it seemed right-- it wasn't.

I now have a new technique. Do it they way they said to do it.

A great kit with amazing engineering and thought went into it.

Rich
 
Wing kit arrived, question about W-1210

Last Wednesday the wing kit arrived!! All the parts were there. Funny, I did not see the spars on the parts list, but there were nonetheless included.

Great kit. I can't believe the accuracy of the hole drilling. Very little "Match drilling" Mostly just debur and rivit.

Question: For those of you who have started building, the W-1210B has a left and right part, each is a different size. This is the part that gets rivited to the W-1210 wing ribs closest to the fuselage (page 1502 dwg 2 and page 15-06, step 7). Why in the world are they different sizes? I am scratching my head wondering what I am missing.

BTW, this kit reminds me of my Erector Set (Mecano for you young guys) that I used to have in the 1950's. So, I am calling this project "Alan's Flying Erector Set".
 
W-1210

Might have to do with the main spars overlapping and offsetting when inserted into fuselage.

MRT890
 
Alan.... I am just assuming that, when possible, it does not matter from which side the pull rivets are inserted. Is that your understanding? In the fundamentals class we did a lot of buck riveting.

Jeff
 
Alan.... I am just assuming that, when possible, it does not matter from which side the pull rivets are inserted. Is that your understanding? In the fundamentals class we did a lot of buck riveting.

Jeff


I have been asking myself this same question all afternoon. Maybe I will run this by Vans.
 
Blind Rivet Direction

These answers are based on a careful reading of the plans and inspection of Jim Cone's photos. I not building - just reading and re-reading the plans and looking at Jim's great photos.

If you look closely at the plans they show rivet direction in several places. They also specify rivet type. Going through and highlighting when the rivets are not of the pulled low profile type (LP's) could possibly avoid a major headache. This is especially true in the forward sub spars, rear main spars, control brackets, and nut plates, where solid rivets are used. Pay special attention to pages 14-02 and 14-03.

The right and left wings are different in several aspects to accommodate the left spar being in front of the right and yet having the leading and trailing edges line up. That is why the W-1210 brackets are different, and the trim call outs on the ribs are different for the two wings.

It would be nice if someone now building would post some photos of where the nose and main ribs meet the spar and the reinforcement joggle / front edge of the rear top skins.

Anyone building near Pensacola, FL or Fort Rucker, AL?

Hoped this helped. -Dave
 
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Blind rivit direction

Okay, I emailed Vans and Ken Scott got back to me very promptly (what a great company to work with!!).

Here is his exact words (cut and pasted from his email), "If orientation is critical, the plans will note it. The symbols do not signify orientation."

Succinctly spoken, thanks Ken...
 
Is anyone priming?

I have been looking at several web sites for RV-12 builders and have not noticed any visible primer on the wing parts. Is it just the camera angles, or are most people not priming?

I noticed the instructions said the wing skins did not need priming since they are alclad, so I assume the rest of the parts need it. Also, what about ribs, are they alclad?
 
I noticed the instructions said the wing skins did not need priming since they are alclad, so I assume the rest of the parts need it. Also, what about ribs, are they alclad?

Yes, the ribs (and any other parts made from thin sheet stock) are alclad.

The only parts that must be primed, are the parts that the manual tells you must be primed.
 
How did you get a copy of the plans? I contacted vans and about getting a set of preview plans and was told they will not be available.

These answers are based on a careful reading of the plans and inspection of Jim Cone's photos. I not building - just reading and re-reading the plans and looking at Jim's great photos.

If you look closely at the plans they show rivet direction in several places. They also specify rivet type. Going through and highlighting when the rivets are not of the pulled low profile type (LP's) could possibly avoid a major headache. This is especially true in the forward sub spars, rear main spars, control brackets, and nut plates, where solid rivets are used. Pay special attention to pages 14-02 and 14-03.

The right and left wings are different in several aspects to accommodate the left spar being in front of the right and yet having the leading and trailing edges line up. That is why the W-1210 brackets are different, and the trim call outs on the ribs are different for the two wings.

It would be nice if someone now building would post some photos of where the nose and main ribs meet the spar and the reinforcement joggle / front edge of the rear top skins.

Anyone building near Pensacola, FL or Fort Rucker, AL?

Hoped this helped. -Dave
 
No Preview Plans

Unlike the other models, the RV-12 doesn't have preview plans. The plans are included with the kits, so you get them when you order.

I assume that this may change once they have the entire kit designed and available.

Did you ask them if you could buy the wing kit plans without buying the kit?
 
I purchased a set of RV12 wing plans. Just called up and ordered from Van's. They shipped them out that day.

Plans $29.50, shipping $9.90, total $39.40

See April 25th post.
-Dave
 
Whoops ...

I just started my RV-12 wing kit about 3 days ago and I destroyed my first piece of aluminum! :mad: I was suppose to csk about 80 #30 holes to the size of a 1/4 " drilled hole (guide) which will be riveted to the leading edge of the wing and the wing skin is to be dimpled to fit the countersink. I have about 5-6 holes I countersunk way to much ...5/16 and some 5/16+ as a guide hole.

I think I didn't tighten the lock on the countersick bit and made the countersink too large in adjusting! The second piece I did came out very good. Guess I'll have to replace the first piece I ruined! :(

I now have to rivet 24-AN470AD4-4 rivets ... my first squeezed rivet ever. I have no extra rivets to practice on. :(

I set the piece to be riveted in a vice and put "the two head pieces" in the rivet squeezer. One piece is curved like the machined end of the rivet and the other is with a flat piece. I just squeeze slowly ... Correct ... ??? Don't make it to flat right? The new crushed piece on the bottom of the rivet I squeeze will be as thick as 1/2 the dia of the rivet shank. Right ...?

If interested you can see my "error" on today's post at my build blog below in my signature ... click picture to enlarge ... my countersink is too big and the enlarged pic even makes it worse!
 
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Countersinking and Riveting

Jerry:

There is a pretty good video on countersinking basics on the EAA website. It explains all of the basics. When using the countersink tool, ensure you place one hand on the foot of the tool so it does not move as you countersink the metal. See the video at:

http://www.eaa.org/video/homebuilders.html?videoId=1485316077

Squeezing rivets it pretty simple. The factory head on an AN470 rivet is concave. You should have a cupped squeezer piece (sized to match the AN470 rivet you are going to set) that is placed in the hand squeezer. A flat squeezer piece is placed opposite of the cupped piece in the hand squeezer. The hand squeezer is adjustable. Once it is set for the particular material thickness and rivet type and size, it is repeatable. The plans show you what the shop head of the rivet should look like after you squeeze the rivet. You might want to purchase a set of rivet gauges.

Also see, the following for some more information.

http://www.rvproject.com/rivets.html

You might want to consider purchasing or borrowing the "Sheet Metal Basics" video from the Orndorf's. I learned a lot from the video. Your local EAA chapter or one your local RV builders should have a copy.
 
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