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Using the GTN

G

gfb

Well Known Member
Working on my IFR training and starting to use the GTN in flight. I clearly have my workflow messed up as things got a bit funny.

I filed KMSN-DLL-EMIBY-KSTE and put that into the flight plan in the GTN.

Getting close to EMIBY I tried to add the RNAV 12 approach into KSTE. No matter how I added it, the flight plan gets messed up. I tried clicking KSTE->AddProcedure, but that send me back to KMSN and then back to KSTE for the procedure. I also tried just going into Proc->Approach->KSTE->RNAV12, but that adds the procedure at the end of the flight plan. I ended up deleting the flight plan and added just the procedure.

Whats the proper way to amend an existing flight plan to add a procedure at one of the intermediary airports?
 
gfb said:
Working on my IFR training and starting to use the GTN in flight. I clearly have my workflow messed up as things got a bit funny.

I filed KMSN-DLL-EMIBY-KSTE and put that into the flight plan in the GTN.

Getting close to EMIBY I tried to add the RNAV 12 approach into KSTE. No matter how I added it, the flight plan gets messed up. I tried clicking KSTE->AddProcedure, but that send me back to KMSN and then back to KSTE for the procedure. I also tried just going into Proc->Approach->KSTE->RNAV12, but that adds the procedure at the end of the flight plan. I ended up deleting the flight plan and added just the procedure.

Whats the proper way to amend an existing flight plan to add a procedure at one of the intermediary airports?
Click to expand...

You can add the procedure when the controller tells you what to except.

Go to procedures
Set the appropriate approach
Select the navigation method - vectors or iaf
load the approach

don't activate the approach until you've been cleared by the controller.

I've been frustrated a couple times when I activated the approach too early and I didn't get the routing I was anticipating. I believe it's a function of where you are at the time of the activation.
 
I use a 430, not 650 but will give some input. First, the approach waypoints are always added to the end of the flight plan. That doesn't mean you'll fly to the airport waypoint before the approach waypoints. That is just the garmin convention for displaying the data. I am not sure you can activate an approach if you haven't passed the last FP waypoint before the airport. If it did, I am sure it would start navigating to the approach waypoint you selected.

I also don't activate the approach until given final instructions for starting the approach. I don't necessarily wait until I am cleared, but ATC telling you to expect an approach doesn't give you insight into how they will guide you into the approach. I activate once they give me instructions for starting the approach, such proceed direct to X, or expect vectors.

Larry
 
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Direct To

I believe once the approach is loaded (it will be at the end of the flight plan) you can then after activating hit the "direct-to" button and then "flight-plan" and then a way-point on the approach. But you better check me on this. I've been playing with my GTN650 over the past week and I believe I did this once.

Once on the ground, go to flight plan, click the approach you just flew and delete it. You should then be able to continue where you left off. You might also have to do a direct to->flight plan->[whatever next waypoint] before taking off again.
 
gfb said:
. I also tried just going into Proc->Approach->KSTE->RNAV12, but that adds the procedure at the end of the flight plan. I ended up deleting the flight plan and added just the procedure.
s?
Click to expand...

Just as the others have said: After you did the above, you should have been offered two choices: ?load?, or ?load and activate?. It looks like you chose ?load?. If your next waypoint was the IAF (or you chose ?vectors to final? and you were now getting vectors) you should have chosen ?load and activate?. Otherwise, with the approach loaded, you just wait until approaching the IAF (or getting vectors), go into the menu and select ?activate approach?.
 
You never need to ?Activate Approach?!

I spent many years teaching people with Garmin 430/530s and 650/750s, and this subject is the source of endless confusion when it comes to shooting approaches. There are a few things to know about the Garmin’s logic that will help when flying a GNS or GTN box.

1. When you select an approach, as stated above you will have two choices:
a. Load - This simply adds the approach to the end of the flight plan. Depending on whether or not you loaded a transition, it could only include the FAF onward, or it could include the entire approach from the IAF on.
b. Load and Activate - this does the same as above but it also will stop any current navigation and will immediately proceed direct to the IAF. IN MOST CASES, THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT! Be absolutely sure you know what you are doing before you select this option.

2. Learn how to activate a leg. It is one of the most useful and least understood functions of both the GNS and GTN navigators. This will set up the GNS/GTN such that you now have a course displayed that you can intercept vs. simply going direct. It is extremely useful for situational awareness. For example, approach says “turn left heading 330 for vectors”. At this point, you need to set the gps up so it’s providing you usable information. For me, 99% of the time, I will go to the flight plan, select the FAF, and select “Activate Leg”. This will draw a course line INTO the FAF on the proper course (generally, it will draw a line from the preceding fix into the FAF). Now I have a magenta line displayed on the map with the final approach course displayed.

EDIT: On newer GTN software (v6.00 and later), activating Vectors to final will do exactly this, and will keep all of the prior fixes in the flight plan. In version 5.13 and earlier, selecting VTF will dump all approach fixes prior to the FAF.

3. You never need to Activate the approach! As long as you proceed direct to one of the fixes on the approach OR intercept a leg of the approach as described above, the box will sequence correctly. Note that this is not the same as selecting APR on an autopilot - totally different discussion. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen someone setup perfectly for an approach, only to suddenly decide that they need to activate the approach. Guess what happens? The airplane makes a hard turn back toward the IAF.

Remember, “Activate Approach” is the same as selecting the IAF and pressing Direct. Sometimes that’s what you want, but if you’re being vectored for the approach, normally it’s not.
 
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Great advice! I can?t understand why Garmin does not offer free Traing videos or class for those who purchase a Garmin suite! I spent $30,000 on a complete Garmin suite and they want to charge you $99.00 for traing video and $600 or so dollars for 3day class! There really needs to be more training available for free!
 
Vectors

Once you pass an IAF and are being vectored it is rare for a controller to send you to another fix on the appeoach. This is what the VECTORS selection on the procedure page is for. Activate vectors to final and you are set. The magenta line is drawn on the final course to the FAF and the controller will vector you to an intercept. Once on the ontercept and cleared, punch APPR. on the autopilot or FD and watch it work.
 
TJCF16 said:
Great advice! I can?t understand why Garmin does not offer free Traing videos or class for those who purchase a Garmin suite! I spent $30,000 on a complete Garmin suite and they want to charge you $99.00 for traing video and $600 or so dollars for 3day class! There really needs to be more training available for free!
Click to expand...

I second that. And the fat manual that comes with the GTN?s is not sufficient. The app where you can fly the GTNXXX from your iPad is helpful but I would like to see a lesson guide on the many setups you can expect when flying IFR and need to learn while busy flying the plane and talking to ATC.
 
RV8iator said:
Once you pass an IAF and are being vectored it is rare for a controller to send you to another fix on the appeoach. This is what the VECTORS selection on the procedure page is for. Activate vectors to final and you are set. The magenta line is drawn on the final course to the FAF and the controller will vector you to an intercept. Once on the ontercept and cleared, punch APPR. on the autopilot or FD and watch it work.
Click to expand...

With Chciago approach, I am often vectored toward the approach and a few miles out, they tell me to go direct to the IAF, though sometimes vectored all the way to the course line. So now I tend to not activate vectors to final, but always use the activate leg from the FAF. I can then easily go back to FP and go direct to the IAF. The GRT has a nice feature that shows terminal fixes on the map, so even with vectors to final, I could uses my track line to fly to the fix.

I never realized that I didn't have to activate something. Next time I will try just loading the appr and fly to whatever they tell me. Obviously that is for hand flying, but I tend to fly all my approaches (when IMC) by hand for practice.

Larry
 
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Cannon said:
3. You never need to Activate the approach! As long as you proceed direct to one of the fixes on the approach OR intercept a leg of the approach as described above, the box will sequence correctly. Note that this is not the same as selecting APR on an autopilot - totally different discussion. I can?t tell you how many times I?ve seen someone setup perfectly for an approach, only to suddenly decide that they need to activate the approach. Guess what happens? The airplane makes a hard turn back toward the IAF.
Click to expand...

Cannon,
What s/w version are you using? Before v6.50 I never activated the approach, but now if I don't activate, the GTN will navigate first to the destination airport and then back out to the IAF. I guess this was also the case for v5.13 and earlier. (see table 6-2 in Rev N of the GTN Pilot's Guide.)
 
EDIT: PLEASE NOTE THE SOFTWARE VERSION YOU HAVE!!

I just realized that I may steered some people wrong. Everything I said is still correct for a GNS (430/530 etc.) but may not be for a GTN. It depends on what software you have. The biggest functional change in regards to this discussion is what happens when you load Vectors to Final.

Old software (v5.13 and earlier): When you load VTF, you lose every fix outside the FAF. So if you have selected VTF and subsequently get a clearance to go direct to one of those prior fixes, you need to reload the approach with the appropriate IAF.

Newer software (v6.00 and later): You CAN load Vectors to Final without worry. They changed the function so that when you load VTF, you keep all the fixes, and the box automatically activates the leg to the FAF - exactly what we want more often than not.

Apologies for any confusion. Just make sure you know what version you have.

lr172 said:
.... So now I tend to not activate vectors to final, but always use the activate leg from the FAF. I can then easily go back to FP and go direct to the IAF.

Larry
Click to expand...

This ⬆️

In my experience, this is the best way to manage an approach. By loading the appropriate IAF and then activating the leg to the FAF, you’ve essentially done the same as activating vectors to final, only now you’ll always have what you need should ATC throw you a curve ball and send you to a fix (or leg) prior to the FAF. NOTE: If you have v6.00 or later, activating Vectors to Final will do exactly this and will keep your fixes prior to the FAF.

What often happens is that you’re expecting a vector to intercept final just outside the FAF, but instead they put you in an intercept that’s one fix further out. No problem - simply go to the flight plan, select the next-further fix and activate that leg. The box will sequence correctly and you’re good to go.



lr172 said:
.... I never realized that I didn't have to activate something. Next time I will try just loading the appr and fly to whatever they tell me. Obviously that is for hand flying, but I tend to fly all my approaches (when IMC) by hand for practice.

Larry
Click to expand...

Maybe I misunderstood the comment, but hand flying or coupled is irrelevant. The GPS has no idea if the data it’s sending out is being used by you for raw data or to fly an A/P coupled approach. The box setup and sequencing is the same in either case.
 
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Spirko said:
Cannon,
What s/w version are you using? Before v6.50 I never activated the approach, but now if I don't activate, the GTN will navigate first to the destination airport and then back out to the IAF. I guess this was also the case for v5.13 and earlier. (see table 6-2 in Rev N of the GTN Pilot's Guide.)
Click to expand...

You are correct. Prior to them updating to v6.00, all the GTN/GNS boxes used similar logic - any approach would simply be stapled to the end of the flight plan. This required one of two things to happen: Either you had to go direct to a fix on the approach or setup an intercept to a leg of the approach.

From v6.00, the destination airport was removed when you loaded an approach. The logic being that in the real world we never flew to the airport and back out to the IAF, so why load the box that way. This caused other issues, however. There are a lot of things you can get access to quickly by touching the destination airport on the flight plan (weather, freqs, other airport info, etc.). With the dest airport no longer ‘touchable’, getting that info was more cumbersome, so I believe that’s why they changed back to the old logic with v6.50.
 
Cannon said:
From v6.00, the destination airport was removed when you loaded an approach. The logic being that in the real world we never flew to the airport and back out to the IAF, so why load the box that way. This caused other issues, however. There are a lot of things you can get access to quickly by touching the destination airport on the flight plan (weather, freqs, other airport info, etc.). With the dest airport no longer ?touchable?, getting that info was more cumbersome, so I believe that?s why they changed back to the old logic with v6.50.
Click to expand...

I guess that does make sense for pilots with no G3X, but who would want to fly without one?~ I prefer the previous logic and to pick up Wx, Freqs, etc. on the EFIS where there's a lot more real estate, I have the GTN 650.
 
Could be because I've flown behind a G3X 1,000+ hrs, but I find its UI more intuitive than the GTN, like the difference between a Mac and a PC. The G3X can't do procedures, that's why there's the GTN. The GTN is pretty darn powerful for Departures, Approaches (incl. procedure turns and missed approaches,) and Holds, for everything else I use the G3X.
 
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