Advice on getting started in Canada

This is my first post on VAF, but I've been here lurking and (I hope) learning for a little more than 6 months.

Initially, I wanted to build an RV-14A, but in the ongoing conversations with my better half, the mission has moved somewhat to favour the RV-10 (potential for grandchildren and friends travelling with us vs. the ability to do limited aerobatics from time to time - I'm 65, after all).

I am fortunate to have a large 2-car garage and am in the process of prepping it as my workshop. I have joined the local EAA chapter. I've run the numbers for both AC as carefully as I can based on the experiences that have been shared here at VAF and the plan is realistic. I know it's a daunting prospect, but I'm also looking forward to the whole thing!

So I've got some questions for those who are well beyond my stage. First, tools. I live in the Niagara area (Southern Ontario) quite near the US border, so I wanted to ask the community whether it made sense to buy tools from a Canadian supplier, or order from one of the popular US suppliers. I could easily ship to a US address nearby and import it myself, but I'd like to hear about other experiences before pulling the trigger. Also, did you buy the full RV kits or get a starter kit and then get additional tools more or less as you needed them.

Second, shipping. I'd love to hear experiences about having Van's ship directly to your shop vs. bringing the kits across the border yourself vs. acting as your own broker to clear the kits from the bonded warehouses.

Third, before I pull the trigger on the tail kit, I'd love to have the opportunity to see an RV-10 up close. YouTube is a great resource, but nothing beats sitting in the aircraft and talking to the person who squeezed all the rivets. I know there are a few RV-10s in Southern Ontario and my wife and I love to take long drives together. I'd be happy to come to your hanger if anyone is interested in showing us your pride and joy.

Anyway, thanks for reading my rambling and thanks in advance for your comments. I have learned that people who build airplanes are some of the most helpful and engaging people I have met.

Thanks!

I bought most of my expensive air tools locally from Atlas Copco. 2x rivet gun (wasn't powerful enough), 3x rivet gun (should have bought this first, pretty much the only one I needed), high speed 3/8" drill (could have lived without this with the prepunched kit), 90 degree drill (mainly used on fuselage, almost never on the wings, empennage). My Bosch 18V cordless is one of my most used drills. Also have a Chinese 3/8" 90 degree air drill with chuck, useful in certain cases. Also bought a Chicago Pneumatic rivet squeezer, although the clones would have probably worked just as well. One of my favorite tools.

Bought lots of other stuff from most of the tool suppliers. Can recommend Cleaveland, Brown. Bought my dimple dies and lots of clecos from Cleaveland

I already had a lot of sheet metal tools, shears, snips etc. and mechanics tools

Already had a drill press (mandatory) and lathe (not mandatory but really nice to have).

I shipped direct to my house, but went to customs personally to clear the big boxes. A somewhat intimidating process. You'll need a "business number". No not a business phone, no not a business registration number, a customs business number. Agents were not very friendly (we're not here to do your work for you!). Huh? Don't my tax dollars pay your wages? Anyway it can be done, but frustrating.

Great experience

Ivan Kristensen lives in Guelph. He owns an RV-10 that he?d built like 10-15 years ago. Great gentleman and great pilot. He is at the forum. He goes to Florida in his RV-10 on winter months. Try to reach him, I?m sure he will be great help for you.

I live 35 miles away from the US Detroit border.
I purchased my RV-14 specific tool kit from plane tools. Very happy with it. Had it shipped to a US address. Just brought it across and paid taxes. I find anything in Canada is harder to find, more expensive, and takes longer to get.

I would highly recommend getting an all inclusive tool kit that is model specific from one of the big tool suppliers. It will save a lot of time running around and back & forth across the border and shipping costs.

Look at plane tools, cleveland tools, etc.

Also sent kits to a US truck depot, not bonded, and brought kit over myself. It is very easy, again just pay Canadian HST, no duties. No broker needed. Trucking to the US and bringing it over myself was about half the price as having shipped directly to me. van's likely can tell you where there is a trucking depot near you in the US.

I have done all this in the last 6 weeks so the info is current and accurate.
Several others in my area have done the same thing.

What was said. Buy Everything, Ship it to Brian at Kuhn Storage across the river from you in Niagara Falls and go pick up everything.

Border

If you can ship to border and get it go for it. Did that for most of my kits back in day when I lived closer.

Call Pacific Custom Brokers. I?ve used them for everything and they are great to deal with. They are located in BC but it doesn?t matter.

Good luck and see you back here few thousand times during the build.

When I researched tools I found that any pre-set kit from any of the larger vendors would be cheaper than buying everything locally.

With a little more research and legwork up front, you can assemble your own kit by getting the best recommended tools from multiple vendors, some of which were in Canada (mostly the generic, not aviation-specific, stuff). Plan ahead to minimize shipping. I also had all of mine shipped to a mail drop just across the border, and drove down to bring them back myself. Half of the time CBP just waved me through, even when carrying $500 worth of aircraft tools. The other half of the time I had to come in and pay PST/GST. Overall, it was much cheaper (and I made sure to get a tank of gas while I was down there).

As for aircraft choice, i'll point out that the -10 isn't aerobatic, so if that interested you, you're cutting off one aspect of your flying. Also, every grandparent I know with an airplane typically flies one grandchild at a time... Even those with 4-place airplanes. The kids take turns, because the ones that want to go flying also want to sit up front. Be sure you really need more than two seats when it's likely that 60-90% of your flying will be solo.

Snowflake said:

As for aircraft choice, i'll point out that the -10 isn't aerobatic, so if that interested you, you're cutting off one aspect of your flying. Also, every grandparent I know with an airplane typically flies one grandchild at a time... Even those with 4-place airplanes. The kids take turns, because the ones that want to go flying also want to sit up front. Be sure you really need more than two seats when it's likely that 60-90% of your flying will be solo.

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You make an excellent point. I wonder how often 10s go flying with 3 or more on board or where the useful load available in a 10 becomes a factor.

The 10 is a great people carrier (sedan), but would also be a great luggage hauler (SUV). The 14 could be compared to a sport car (Mustang), not as versatile in the luggage carrying capacity (in my wife's view). But the 2 place models are more fun to fly (in my view!).

Brian - much of the advise given so far here is pretty much golden.

There clearly is absolutely NO NEED for a broker. There likewise is no need for any fancy business number. Or at least that's the case for the border crossing closest to Ottawa.

In building our aircraft I had everything shipped to and held by either the UPS store or Fedex store or a third party shipping warehouse just across the border. I would then drive down, pick up the goods, drive back to the Canadian border and declare every penny of the goods being brought in.

Just be double-darned sure that you have paperwork to prove the value of every shipment you are bringing across the border. Do NOT count on vendors to include the invoice in the package. Some do, some don't, sometimes they get torn off in shipping. Get the vendor to email you a copy of the invoice. Print it in duplicate, one for customs, one for you. Take both copies with you. Add up the total value of everything you are bringing across the border. When asked at the border if you have anything to declare, hold up your tally sheet and give the total down to the last penny, in USD and tell them it's in USD. They will make you go inside with your paperwork and pay the 13% HST.

Refrain from the temptation of having the invoice on a mobile device - the moment you hand that device to Customs so they can see the invoice, they have the right to search through every little piece of data on that phone. I leave my phone at home when crossing the border because I also use it for work and a Customs inspection of my phone could be construed as breaking my confidentiality agreement.

Refrain from the temptation to pick up duty free, alcohol, tobacco, anything else. Make the trip solely and exclusively about the aircraft parts. Clean your car out before you go so there is nothing that could be construed as something you were trying to import without declaring.

In short, make the job of the Customs Officer as easy as you possibly can. Be open, honest and cheerful. Yeah, you're going to be paying a whack of tax but you've just saved a TON on shipping and brokerage fees, so smile and be happy.

Also, make sure you have a financial instrument that's ready to pay the tax bill. You can call the border crossing and, for larger amounts, ask if they would prefer one method of payment over another. Again, make it easy for them. For one trip I had to bump up the limit on my credit card to cover the tax bill. No problems with the bank or the border, thanks to a little advance planning.

I've had my vehicle searched exactly once in all the times I came across the border with airplane parts. The Customs Officers were quite amazed by the tools I had opened up for inspection prior to arriving at the border - I wanted to ensure the tools were OK before bringing them across. I stood back and watched them conduct the search, and when the one officer saw my Knipex PlierWrench I offered to demonstrate it for him. A good conversation ensued. I discovered that buying those tools from an Alaska-based company ended up much cheaper (like $60 on one shipment alone!) if I shipped to northern NY state and self-importing than having them shipped directly to me.

Treat Customs Officers like professionals, like you would like to be treated, and things will generally go well for you.

I take the other view. I live an hour and a half from Port Huron, USA. That makes a four hour round trip if everything goes well, plus a good chunk of fuel for my pickup. The trucking cost from port Huron to my door is less then the cost of my fuel. It is already on the truck that is full of stuff for southern Ontario

We have a very good broker and I get kits shipped directly to my door. The broker sends me an invoice for the HST and their brokerage fees, which are quite reasonable.
No problems with paperwork, no customs officers, my kit is insured until it gets to my farm. The big bonus for me is that I have half a day more time to work on my project. After eleven airplanes I do everything I can to save time for building.

Over the course of your build you have quite a few shipments.

Try clearing it for yourself and then find a good local broker for the next shipment, and have it delivered to your door.

Then you will know what works for you

Added tip: under NO circumstances use UPS for small order shipments. Their brokerage fees are sometimes more then the shipping!
I have found US mail to be reasonable in price and time

Orion Limited - package pickup

I highly recommend Orion Limited in Lewiston, New York to hold packages for pickup. They are a UPS agent. Super nice guys and extremely reasonable. Take US cash... I used them for avionics and cleared the package myself.

I also recommend using USPS/Canada Posts for lower value items. UPS/Fedex/Purolator have extraordinarily high brokerage fees. Just plan ahead. Canada Post generally does not collect duties on shipments under $100.00 but YMMV.

Cheers, Sean

Tom Martin said:

I take the other view. I live an hour and a half from Port Huron, USA. That makes a four hour round trip if everything goes well, plus a good chunk of fuel for my pickup. The trucking cost from port Huron to my door is less then the cost of my fuel. It is already on the truck that is full of stuff for southern Ontario

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Tom - your point is extremely valid indeed. What I failed to mention in my earlier post is that I tend to "bulk up" shipments so my 3 hour round trip to the border nets me a pretty full vehicle and several hundred dollars of saved shipping and brokerage fees. That makes it worthwhile.

AMEN on the UPS comment (and curses upon them). I had one part shipped by a vendor who completely ignored my shipping instructions, they just used their standard shipping. It was a part worth less than $50... they dinged me $68 in brokerage fees, plus 13% HST on top of that! Needless to say, that vendor got an earfull of my venom when the shipment arrived.

Canadian_JOY said:

Tom - your point is extremely valid indeed. What I failed to mention in my earlier post is that I tend to "bulk up" shipments so my 3 hour round trip to the border nets me a pretty full vehicle and several hundred dollars of saved shipping and brokerage fees. That makes it worthwhile.

AMEN on the UPS comment (and curses upon them). I had one part shipped by a vendor who completely ignored my shipping instructions, they just used their standard shipping. It was a part worth less than $50... they dinged me $68 in brokerage fees, plus 13% HST on top of that! Needless to say, that vendor got an earfull of my venom when the shipment arrived.

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Did you do things any differently when taking delivery of the main aircraft sections? Some/all of the kits are heavy and very large/bulky.

Oh, and I forgot to say earlier... Keep all your receipts showing the actual taxes paid. Keep a tally of them in a spreadsheet, because at the end of the day when you register your airplane the tax man will send you a demand for taxes on it. That's when you first reply with total spent to build and taxes paid on it, and tell them it's already paid. If they ask for receipts, you can send copies of the spreadsheet and all the receipts.

If you get "waved through" on some trips, you may happen to forget where you put those receipts... If taxes weren't paid at the border on some of the trips, the total spent and the total taxes paid won't work out, and the tax man will want the difference.

Snowflake said:

Oh, and I forgot to say earlier... Keep all your receipts showing the actual taxes paid. Keep a tally of them in a spreadsheet, because at the end of the day when you register your airplane the tax man will send you a demand for taxes on it. That's when you first reply with total spent to build and taxes paid on it, and tell them it's already paid. If they ask for receipts, you can send copies of the spreadsheet and all the receipts.

If you get "waved through" on some trips, you may happen to forget where you put those receipts... If taxes weren't paid at the border on some of the trips, the total spent and the total taxes paid won't work out, and the tax man will want the difference.

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Thank you for this tip! We do a lot of cross-border shopping when the deals are good. Once we are through the border on the way home, we figure that's the last we will hear about it. Not so with airplanes, apparently!

I went the cheap route

Hello and good luck in building your RV 10, a big project that should be fun but i assure you it takes a lot of time and lots of money! I am building an RV 7 but a friend is building an RV 10 and although top notch stuff going in i am sure it is going to be well over 120K Canadian when complete although i really dont know for sure.

Tools - when i started years ago (10) I went looking for clecoes, wiring pliers, and anything else on Ebay. A few good finds there saved me plenty. If the budget allows buying the kits is the way I would go now. I have probably 2500 dollars invested by now including my compressor 60 gallon 3HP.

The kit - I ordered it in modules which worked great but constantly kept me broke.... ha ha. But it meant my shop wasnt cluttered with stuff i couldnt get to and when i finished a module and ordered another it gave me motivation that i was getting somewhere.

The Border - I am sure that i spent more than i should have but working out of town and home only weekends i chose the easiest route of Fedex brokering or UPS. I never wanted to know what it costs!

Some tips on tools
I found a large compressor a godsend in many cases, I started with a small oiless 1.5 hp job which works ok but not for airtools and painting.

I did get a good drill but those Sioux seems to be pretty nice, smaller ones.

An 8 inch sander is essential in my view, one with a 8 inch disk and upper band sander.

A Bandsaw is great

I have a drill press which is essential, a floor model but a desk model would work too.

A tungsten bucking bar ESSENTIAL

Some of the new kits are prepunched and that so these comments should be taken into account that my build started 10 yrs ago.

Good luck in your build and please no wingovers or rolls in an RV 10

Dave

Border

Tools, I had most of them as I am an AME. I did purchase some from Avery Tools, now Cleveland aircraft tools, and Brown tool. I purchased some 3/32 clecos from Aircraft Spruce. They must be made in China as they did not work well. Make sure any clecos you purchase are made in the USA. I purchased a pneumatic rivet squeezer about half way through my project. Wish I had purchased it at the beginning of the project. I have a lathe, drill press, sheer, 3X rivet gun. I love the tungsten bucking bars. I have an air drill but used a cordless one most of the time. An angle drill is necessary. Some 12 inch drill bits are very handy.
Shipping. I have a letter box on the US side. I had all the small things sent there. I live only 5 miles from the border. When you bring pieces across the border make sure you tell them they are for YOUR aeroplane. If the border people think it is commercial freight, you are in for a very frustrating time. I live close enough to Vans that I went to the factory and picked up mu kits. I had one shipped to a truck depot in Everett Washington. That too worked out well.
I agree with not using UPS for cross border shipments to my home. I use USPS. It takes longer but no big customs bills. My experience is US venders are used to using UPS and you really have to emphasize that they use USPS.

Ray Fessenden
Langley B.C.
RV9A with 4 hours on it