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To glass, or not to glass

H

Henryrifle

Member
Until this past June and with the purchase of a built RV-6, I hadn't piloted an airplane in almost 15 years!

My plane was completed in ?94 and its avionics and flight instruments have not been upgraded since. That means panel-mount first generation text-based GPS/Comm, Comm2, Nav and Transponder plus the steam gauge six-pack.

To be honest, until I started researching the equipment in the plane prior to purchasing it, I would have said it was well equipped but, I quickly discovered that while I was away, Loran was decommissioned, precision GPS approaches have become common and sophisticated air data computers and flight information systems are common and, to some degree, affordable.

I purchased Foreflight and a Stratus II receiver and was (still am) amazed at the information available to pilots with that and several other similar combinations. I flew a King Air back in the mid ?90s equipped with a Universal UNS-1A and radar. I thought we had big boy gear back then and we did but not by today?s standards.

There are several justifiable reasons to start looking at a cockpit upgrade like ADS-B and the ability to fly precision GPS approaches but I wonder if the cost justifies the results. I wonder if the iPad and other tablets are impacting pilot?s decision to upgrade? It is impacting mine. There are easier stand-alone paths to get ADS-B 2020 compliant and some older (less expensive) but still capable panel-mount solutions for en route and terminal IFR situations that when coupled with the iPad get you very close to EFIS. It is not nearly as clean in the cockpit nor is it as integrated but it seems much less expensive and does offer good redundant capability.

I also want to be careful not to spend a dollar twice. Whatever I do upgrade, I'd like it to be part of the "final" implementation wherever possible.

For everyone who has gone through this expense, trouble and downtime, did you read this and think ?he has no idea what he is missing out on? or did you have similar thoughts and, if so, what do you think now?

For everyone like me on the fence and for the sake of discussion, putting the cost aside, does using a tablet and portable weather/traffic receiver give you the capabilities to make you put off the glass cockpit decision?

This isn?t an either/or decision and there do appear to be some easy ways to get glass in the cockpit from folks like Dynon, GRT and MGL. Just curious what y?all are thinkin?


Thanks,
Hank
 
I'm biased, but if you are planning to fly IFR, the portable gear and an iPad aren't the way to go. Installing an EFIS and certified GPS will give you significantly enhanced capability.

There is a rathole that you'll have to address. It's how much redundancy is required if you fly in IMC. Paul Dye has written several great articles on defining your mission and how to determine appropriate levels of redundacy.

You may want to take a look at the Dynon and/or AFS prebuilt panels that AFS announced at OSH. It will make the transition go much faster.
 
Great post. I did the glass upgrade a year ago. You will be wowed at the capabilities and the realitive affordability.
 
Glass or No?

Hank, I just posted info on my panel update to the RV6 thread on panels here:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=23846&page=2

I enjoyed doing the update and am glad I did it. But in my opinion, it is like restoring old cars - you have to do it because you like going through the process (which I genuinely enjoyed). But I question that it makes financial sense for most pilots. I think in most instances it is better to find a plane equipped like you want, rather than going through the update process.

Just one opinion.
 
Free advice - worth what you paid for it.
One, I have a glass panel. But that's because, in a new installation, it is no more expensive than the 6 pack! (A lot of cost savings in engine instruments; with a $40K engine I wanted to see what was going on in all 6 cylinders). But for an existing plane, you will get very little money back on selling the old instruments. So a retrofit is more expensive, in that sense.
Two, the big one: do you plan to fly IFR? As already mentioned, if the answer is yes, then you need to ask questions about systems redundancy, back up power for an all electric airplane, etc. If enroute IFR, I think you'll find a -6 will require enough concentration that you'd wish you had an autopilot (fatigue issue).
Three. If vfr only, I think an iPad is a fine solution. Put it somewhere where you can see it without looking down too much. But for ifr the information really needs to be right next to the flight instruments or you won't use it.
Four: Certified gps? Really great, but really expensive. How often do you shoot approaches where only a certified gps will get you in? For myself, it was a requirement, because our home field has an "ADF required" ILS approach (the 420W can legally sub for the ADF). But if I could have bought an ADF for $500 I might have reconsidered my choice!

My suggestion: if vfr only, keep what you have, plus an ADSB box and an iPad. If you want ifr,then there's some serious design work (and serious money) to think about. The other issue is if you want more modern (and greatly enhanced) engine instrumentation.
 
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You'd have to define your primary mission:

Day VFR fun
VFR serious traveling
Enroute IFR
Full IFR

With these considerations comes your pocketbook next.

Just my opinion, day VFR, your head should be outside enjoying the view and looking for traffic- don't assume the glass is going to warn you of other traffic. I've had 2 near misses with knuckleheads at the wrong altitudes, obviously with their transponders off and probably with their heads down watching the "video show"...

Portable GPS with weather gives you great capability for VFR with your old panel for minimal cost.

For serious IFR, glass is the way to go only if you know how to work it properly and I stress that last part. Read the manuals, understand everything thoroughly and be prepared to get some training with it. The intuitive, situational awareness it can offer is tremendous. It can be equally dangerous if you don't know how to work it properly and are fumbling around in actual IMC.
 
Thanks for some great comments and advice. I fully agree that “defining the mission” is the place to start and the standard by which smart equipment purchases should be measured. It wouldn’t be very difficult to over invest in avionics resulting in a plane that is worth more to me than it would be to the market.

The other side of that thought for me, using Keith’s analogy about restoring old cars being something you like to do; I do like that kind of project.

I also know myself well enough to know that I see planes/racecars/motorcycles/houses/etc. for what they could be rather than what they are. Over the years that has cost me a lot of money though it has been fun—most of the time.

The primary mission of this plane is for enjoying VFR flying over relatively short durations (<2 hour flights) on VFR days. That doesn’t always work out and it would be beneficial to have modest IFR capabilities—which the plane does have now in the form or ILS gear.

I highly suspect that I am in good company and most/all of you like the mental distraction from work/everyday life of contemplating your next project/adventure/achievement.

For now I am happy to fly the plane around as it is taking wife and children for rides in the hopes that one of the children will get interested in the amazing world of aviation like I did at their age (I am an older dad). I enjoy aviation a lot too. I had forgotten how enjoyable it is to fly, and, at times, lose yourself in the mental demands of safe flight.

This stuff is for fun and also fun to think about the potential.

I still have a question though: Has the tablet + aviation software like Foreflight + portable ADS-B receivers given us VFR steam gauge pilots a viable extension of time before upgrading is all but mandatory?

Just in case you no longer remember what a panel full of stuff looks like, here is my example:
RV-6Panel_zps735c53a0.jpg


Thank you again for your thoughts,
Hank
 
For 2 hour vfr flights, with the ability to shoot an ILS back into Lawrenceville if needed, you are all set right now. Any upgrades are just because you want to do it.
 
For your mission, seems like you already have good capability. Find something portable to provide the ADS-B and moving map with weather and you are well set.
 
As others have said, you are well set up for your current mission. However if you want to do it for the challenge and "fun" then by all means do it. This is the same reason we fly experimental airplanes instead of "can't do that" planes.

Here is a link to photos of when I converted from "steam" to "glass" in 2012 so you have an idea as to what it entails. Plan on at least 2 months of down time but, just like building an airplane, it will depend on how much time you have available. Again, I did it because of the exact same reason why I have experimental airplane in the first place. Would I do it again? Probably not since it was a lot more work than I anticipated. Am I glad I did it? Without a doubt, OH YES!

:cool:
 
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Vlad said:
Instead of glass spend bucks on gas :D
Click to expand...

For those with a traditional panel, Vlad is a good poster 'child' for the value of a tablet both on the ground and in the cockpit.

It is a great tool for planning and then an affordable GPS navigation moving map chart solution in the air. It may not have a true sunlight readable screen but their are ways to make it work.

If you are on the fence, a GPS enabled tablet is a great first step and even if you update the panel, the tablet is still a great planning tool and backup during flight.
 
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Great post about a topic lots of us face(d)

In 2006, I purchased an IFR RV6 specifically to accomplish two objectives: 1) gain cross-country flexibility when clouds are a factor, and 2) get my wife out of the back seat of our VFR RV4 so she could enjoy our trip more than simply staring at the back of my ugly head.

The avionics were older and included no GPS approach capability, and I purchased the airplane with the intention of adding it specifically because in the event of a problem enroute, I wanted the limiting factor to be the type of approach available below me and not the avionics.

That meant a 430W, which I added to the panel, along with a 496 to obtain XM satellite weather. The reason for that decision was entirely economic. At the time, weather on the 430 cost about $5K, and I could get it for under $2K with the portable. I installed it centered on the left seat so it was user-friendly in crosscheck.

At the time, glass hadn't taken over the world of the cockpit. In the past 8 years, today's products have completely revolutionized the transfer of information and improved situational awareness almost beyond measure.

In a fit of upgrade-itis, we recently decided to replace the 6 with a glass-equipped 7, and it was deja-vu all over again to add GPS precision approach capability. The G3X and GX Pilot combo can do everything the $3.5M Citation 650 I flew in my final flying job. I still marvel at what's available for these little airplanes.

As for how ti use it, unlike my professional flying career, no trip in sport aviation warrants intentionally penetrating LIFR weather. I won't accept routing in VFR conditions over an undercast with extensive LIFR ceilings just in case a problem demands an immediate landing.

The iPad and Garmin Pilot are invaluable in many ways as a supplement to panel-mount info, and I can look ahead at the route to evaluate whether deviation is advisable. Each airport has a colored dot representing the current weather, VFR, MVFR, IFR, and LIFR. If I see too many red dots along the route and to either side, it's time to come up with another plan.

My philosophy is undoubtedly on the low end of the cost-effective versus practical-benefit scale. Other replies to your post make an excellent case for keeping it simple, and each of us has to weigh the enhancements glass provides to our primary use of an RV.

On a final note, my -6 panel is busier than yours. :)

Tosh
 
try it before you decide

Full disclosure... I don't get compensated by GRT.
If you want to try out glass... get the Mini from Grand Rapids.
Solid state attitude with no gyro to fail. Air data presented in digital format so you can try out the "brain" transition. A small unit and easy to fit... but also bigger than the attitude instruments used for decades in all kinds of aircraft.
If you find you are just as happy with the old style... you have not invested much. On the other hand, if you like it, you already have your backup box to build into the panel layout design.
 
Glass is the future and the future is real close. My advice, worth what you pay for it, is pick a manufacturer that gives you what you need, at a fair price, offers outstanding service, and will be in business in 5 years. Buy everything from that manufacturer and confirm that the comm and nav equipment is compatible. Check out their support department, how long to answer phone, return a call, how professional even with dumb questions. How long is the warranty, return policies, repair/exchange/loaner items. Are they "nickle and dime-ing you to death" with annual subscription fees. Last of all, what is everyone else on your field buying and why. Just one opinion, Dan
 
BobTurner said:
For 2 hour vfr flights, with the ability to shoot an ILS back into Lawrenceville if needed, you are all set right now. Any upgrades are just because you want to do it.
Click to expand...

+1. The iPad is a nice compliment, spend the money on gas. :D
 
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