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  #11  
Old 02-05-2014, 07:35 AM
6 Gun 6 Gun is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 777
Smile Metal

Don't know about you but if I got a 1/8 tea spoon of metal out of my filter I would be pulling my engine apart to inspect before further flight.
Bob
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  #12  
Old 02-05-2014, 08:58 AM
Randy Randy is offline
 
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Location: Sedona Arizona
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The webinar put on by the maker of Camguard the other day agreed with most of the points I read in the report at the beginning of this thread, EXCEPT, oil change intervals.

In the Camguard webinar it was stated that one of the biggest mistakes made by Lycoming was in changing their recommended oil change interval from 25 to 50 hours when they started using filters instead of screens. It was also stated that most of the beneficial additives in the oil that help prevent corrosion are evaporated away by about 25 hours of operation...

Filters do not take out the acids or water from the oil.

That was one of the main points I took away from the Camguard webinar, 25 hours is about maximum interval, and additives can be replenished when you add a quart of oil. Some Camguard can be added each time oil is added.

Reading about the significant wear at startup and the benefits of the oil squirters or ney nozzles, makes me want to have the ability to squirt the cam down with oil prior to startup....

Randall
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  #13  
Old 02-05-2014, 09:56 AM
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rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy View Post

In the Camguard webinar it was stated that one of the biggest mistakes made by Lycoming was in changing their recommended oil change interval from 25 to 50 hours when they started using filters instead of screens. It was also stated that most of the beneficial additives in the oil that help prevent corrosion are evaporated away by about 25 hours of operation...

Filters do not take out the acids or water from the oil.
I take issue with this for a number of reasons. #1, I would be somewhat more likely to believe this if it were coming from someone not trying to sell more of their own product. #2, There has been quite a bit of testing with automotive bypass filtration systems (Amsoil, for one) where the oil has gone 100K or better and oil analysis has been done on the oil and found that the oils are still good and the makeup oil added replenishes lost additives, and #3 if there's no water in the oil there's no way for acid to form. Not getting oil temps high enough to allow water to evaporate is the solution rather than trying to depend on additives to do the job is the better route.

I've also seen the insides of an engine on Camguard that had rust so I'm not a big believer that it does some magical things they claim it does.
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  #14  
Old 02-05-2014, 10:17 AM
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Ken Harrill Ken Harrill is offline
 
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Default Acidity of Oil

Regarding the acidity on aircraft oil, Blackstone Labs published this article a few months ago:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsl...uly-1-2013.php

Interesting reading, to say the least!
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  #15  
Old 02-17-2014, 02:52 PM
n761tj n761tj is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketbob View Post
I take issue with this for a number of reasons. #1, I would be somewhat more likely to believe this if it were coming from someone not trying to sell more of their own product. #2, There has been quite a bit of testing with automotive bypass filtration systems (Amsoil, for one) where the oil has gone 100K or better and oil analysis has been done on the oil and found that the oils are still good and the makeup oil added replenishes lost additives, and #3 if there's no water in the oil there's no way for acid to form. Not getting oil temps high enough to allow water to evaporate is the solution rather than trying to depend on additives to do the job is the better route.

I've also seen the insides of an engine on Camguard that had rust so I'm not a big believer that it does some magical things they claim it does.
Bypass filters work very well in every application I have tested them in. However none of them remove water or organic acid from the oil.

Organic acids come from the oxidation of blow-by fuel and does not depend on water to form. Organic acids pit the hard steel in our engines quite nicely.

There is always a lot of water present in aircraft oil as it is present in the blow-by. Most oils can hold 1000ppm of water and Exxon Elite can easily hold much more because of their dispersant viscosity modifier. You should get the oil temperature up to 180-210F but remember that the underside of the pistons are over 250F.

It was the head of Lycoming engineering that told me the worst thing they ever did was to increase the oil change interval to 50 hours with the addition of a full flow filter. All this did was to increase their warranty claims.

Do you have any additional information on this Camguard engine that you saw rust in? I would have expected a phone call from an upset owner.

Ed

Last edited by n761tj : 02-17-2014 at 04:38 PM.
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  #16  
Old 02-17-2014, 03:05 PM
n761tj n761tj is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Harrill View Post
Regarding the acidity on aircraft oil, Blackstone Labs published this article a few months ago:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsl...uly-1-2013.php

Interesting reading, to say the least!
Here is a case of not understanding the chemistry of aircraft oil (versus automotive oil). In aircraft oil a Total Acid Number (TAN) of 2 IS VERY corrosive because of the small organic acids formed by the oxidation of blow-by fuel in aircraft engines.

With the help of Blackstone we determined the TAN went up 1-1.5 points per 25 hours depending on the engine. Without any acid neutralizing capacity, aircraft oil will not protect hardened steel (cams and lifters). It will pit along grain boundaries and pitting leads to stress risers and spalling.

Ed
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  #17  
Old 02-17-2014, 05:15 PM
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rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n761tj View Post
Do you have any additional information on this Camguard engine that you saw rust in? I would have expected a phone call from an upset owner.

Ed
I do have pictures of significant rust and pitting on the cylinder walls. This particular engine is owned by a friend and I do all the work on it. It has Reiff cylinder band heaters and I found bands of rust on the cylinder walls directly underneath them.

In this case the engine was on Camguard and that was enough for me to deduce that it did not prevent rust in an accelerated rusting scenario like this one.

Over the years I have found that the engines that run on plain old Phillips X/C are the cleanest with the least amount of varnish or carbon deposits.

Over the summer Blackstone had a nice write up in one of their newsletters and the particular quote from this article parallels my general observations.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsl...uly-1-2013.php

"Oil is oil. We still stand by that today. The oil guys would have you believe otherwise, but brand really does not seem to make a difference in how your engine wears, or how often you can change your oil."
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N55BC RV-6 borrowed, flying
N678X F1 Rocket, under const.
N244BJ RV-6 "victim of SNF tornado" 1200+ hrs, rebuilding
N8155F C150 flying
N7925P PA-24-250 Comanche, restoring
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  #18  
Old 02-17-2014, 07:33 PM
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RV10inOz RV10inOz is offline
 
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Choose the one that the colour of the bottle is preferred by your wife/daughter or next door neighbour.

Only caveat, use an aviation oil. If using Camguard, it is better in all but the shell 15w-50 according to Ed.
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  #19  
Old 01-07-2018, 08:04 AM
Westerhuis Westerhuis is offline
 
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Default Webinar still available online

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo View Post
http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1149666747001

here is the link to the show, plus much more. very important info, thanks.
This is no longer available through the link, but you will find it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibX8xJYxsSA
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  #20  
Old 01-07-2018, 09:46 AM
AviatorJ AviatorJ is offline
 
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Default

Primary source for all Mikes webinars...

https://www.savvyaviation.com/savvya...ikes-webinars/
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