Hangar floor pics

I love the hangar floor pics posted today! I have been considering options and like this. Does this treatment eliminate the cement dust as a sealant would? What are people's experience with this "scrubber" treatment?

Using sealer on cement floors is becoming old school. The Jan/San industry is moving to Diamond pads. Different manufacturers call them different things but think of it like polishing aluminum. Start with heavier grits pads and work your way down. If you go into most Aviation Depots and some of the other big box stores you'll see glossy concrete floors done with this system and no sealer or finish on them. The problem with sealers and floor finishes used on concrete, terazzo (not that finsih should ever be put on terazzo but I see it all the time), VCT or older asbestos flooring is that they wear off and also require a lot more maintenance. Rental places that have any type of floor equipement are good places to start if you want to go this route. Not sure if they will carry the Diamond pads though. For those you may need to hit up a janitorial supply house that sells over the counter. Just be aware these pads are expensive.

In regards to DR's shiny new floors, they look really good. Keep them swept and mop occasionally using a neutral floor cleaner and they will continue to look great. Oh, and the "rabbit or turtle" buttons, fairly standard on this type of equipement. Many of the English speaking custodians I sell to are not the most literate or equpment carring sort so pictures work best.

Concrete Finish

In my particular case, I am fortunate in the fact that my brother is in the Jan/San business as a manufactures rep. He put me on to the very thing that Mike (CapFlyer) mentioned - that being the use of Diamond pads and a stone sealer. These pads, in combination with a low speed machine like the one Doug has "Taken a Shine" to, and a high speed buffer/burnisher will make concrete look almost as good as granite. This is all done wet, so there is no dust to deal with.

The level of shine is just a matter of how much time and energy you are willing to put into the job - much like polishing aluminum. Unlike aluminum, the sealer will lock in the shine, and an occasional burnishing will bring back the full shine.

My hangar floor is about 30 years old and had everything from oil and acid spills to paint and upholstery glue on it. Consequently, after lots of clean up I still ended up with a number of "Character" marks in a very shiny floor. Which is fine with me and the look I am actually after.

The next step for an established floor is actual grinding, which is done dry, very messy, and extremely expensive. You would get the same shine, but get rid of most all of the character marks from past hangar spills.

If you have a new floor, or for those who will be pouring a new slab in the future, I would certainly suggest the polished floor with stone sealer over the epoxy paint. It is easier to clean, much less slippery when wet, and in my opinion looks better.

It looks like CapFlyer is in the business, and I am sure he could enlighten you even more. As I understand the Jan/San business from my brother, it is regional in nature, where the manufactures have representatives covering specific territories. If you are in CapFlyer's area, I will bet he can hook you up. If you have an interest in the equipment DR was using, you can contact Viper directly and Laura said she would line up VAF readers with the appropriate rep for their particular location.

Might be something that a group of hangar owners would go in on - especially when you look at the cost of renting the equipment.

Anybody know what it'd take (time, money, etc) to take a rough looking epoxy floor to something like this? Call it 40'x80'.

Building hanger

I'm building a new hanger and would like to get an estimate on doing this to my floor. Does anyone know who I should contact in southeast Wisc.

gtmule said:

Anybody know what it'd take (time, money, etc) to take a rough looking epoxy floor to something like this? Call it 40'x80'.

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I'm curious as to the cost as well. Depending on the expense, I'm may do the same in my hangar.

thanks,

bob

Very nice looking, but don't the big box stores use a top finish material and finishing technique to get the flatness and surface finish?

Without a sealant of some kind isn't concrete still porous? Won't moisture still come up from below, and oil, antifreeze and other spills on a well used garage area still seep into and stain the concrete? Isn't it still subject to corrosion from salt from winters drippings? Will it stop radon gas from the basement?

Update me please, these are long held beliefs based on real issues found over the decades. I am all for going to Sunbelt Rentals and renting a floor grinder, but if I have the same old concrete won't it have the same old problems without a sealant or coating?

Thanks for all this great information. Is this something a janitorial service might be hired for in lieu of renting the equipment and doing it myself?

Figure $4K-6K to grind/polish your hangar floor

This assumes a 30 x 40 hangar polished to 3000 grit. Did mine last year - your price may vary depending on location, etc.

Concrete grinding requires expertise.

BillL said:

Very nice looking, but don't the big box stores use a top finish material and finishing technique to get the flatness and surface finish?

Without a sealant of some kind isn't concrete still porous? Won't moisture still come up from below, and oil, antifreeze and other spills on a well used garage area still seep into and stain the concrete? Isn't it still subject to corrosion from salt from winters drippings? Will it stop radon gas from the basement?

Update me please, these are long held beliefs based on real issues found over the decades. I am all for going to Sunbelt Rentals and renting a floor grinder, but if I have the same old concrete won't it have the same old problems without a sealant or coating?

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Bill, concrete grinding is a technical science. To get a really high quality job requires expertise at three separate stages. Firstly at the concrete mix stage, secondly at the concrete pour stage, and thirdly at the concrete grind stage.

Let me give you an example. Normal slab concrete is about 20 MPa strength. Concrete to be fully ground is normally specified at 32 MPa. The extra strength prevents the aggregate (the "stones") from dislodging from the concrete during the grinding. And that's just one requirement of many to get a top job.

Also people talk about "concrete grinding" but there are many types of concrete grinding. Typically most concrete grinding is just a half grind to expose the aggregate and then a clear coat is used over that. This is the most common "concrete grinding" because it requires less grinding and is therefore much cheaper. However this approach is not optimum because all clear coats (even expensive two-pack polyurethanes) eventually scuff when you walk on them and break down when subjected to UV so they require expensive periodic maintenance.

The best finish is a full grind so that you get the high gloss "granite" look without a clear top coat. It's very hard and resistant to wear. But it is more expensive. Typically with a full grind a sealer is still used to close the pores in the concrete.

There's a LOT of tricks to concrete grinding and it is best done by professionals if a high quality surface is required. I saw a concrete grind job recently where the workers had walked into the concrete slab by accident just after the pour. This pushed all the aggregate down into the mix. The concreters simply trowelled the footprints smooth but the aggregate was gone from the mix surface. It all looked good until it was ground and then you could clearly see the footprints where there was no aggregate. It then looked totally ridiculous.

As I said, there's a lot of tricks in concrete grinding. I don't profess to know a huge amount about it, but I know enough to know that a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous.

Something to consider

I emailed Doug about this yesterday. An option to consider for this type of equipment is government excess. The website http://www.govsales.gov/
will take you to on-line resources where the public can bid on items pulled from service. You may find great bargains on this type of equipment (or tools or a host of other things). These scrubbers are common in hospitals and you may find one that no longer cleans to the infection control requirements of an OR, but it could be usable for a hanger floor.

Avon

Captain Avgas said:

Bill, concrete grinding is a technical science. To get a really high quality job requires expertise at three separate stages. Firstly at the concrete mix stage, secondly at the concrete pour stage, and thirdly at the concrete grind stage.

Let me give you an example. Normal slab concrete is about 20 MPa strength. Concrete to be fully ground is normally specified at 32 MPa. The extra strength prevents the aggregate (the "stones") from dislodging from the concrete during the grinding. And that's just one requirement of many to get a top job.

Also people talk about "concrete grinding" but there are many types of concrete grinding. Typically most concrete grinding is just a half grind to expose the aggregate and then a clear coat is used over that. This is the most common "concrete grinding" because it requires less grinding and is therefore much cheaper. However this approach is not optimum because all clear coats (even expensive two-pack polyurethanes) eventually scuff when you walk on them and break down when subjected to UV so they require expensive periodic maintenance.

The best finish is a full grind so that you get the high gloss "granite" look without a clear top coat. It's very hard and resistant to wear. But it is more expensive. Typically with a full grind a sealer is still used to close the pores in the concrete.

There's a LOT of tricks to concrete grinding and it is best done by professionals if a high quality surface is required. I saw a concrete grind job recently where the workers had walked into the concrete slab by accident just after the pour. This pushed all the aggregate down into the mix. The concreters simply trowelled the footprints smooth but the aggregate was gone from the mix surface. It all looked good until it was ground and then you could clearly see the footprints where there was no aggregate. It then looked totally ridiculous.

As I said, there's a lot of tricks in concrete grinding. I don't profess to know a huge amount about it, but I know enough to know that a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous.

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Thanks Bob,

I did a little extra research and found that there is a "densifier" used to fill the pores and chemically bond with the concrete matrix. It is a colloidal silica and makes it impervious to liquids etc. Nano particles, 1-15 nm in size. It mixes with water and gets slathered on until the surface is saturated. It apparently goes on after the first finishing step. Not sure it will block radon, but maybe, more research to do.

Thanks for the information, there really is something new to this finishing business!! Very interesting stuff. Makes me interested since my 25 yr old epoxy coated floors need some sprucing up.

The floor looks beautiful but doesn't the polish job make it slick?

Glenn Wilkinson

When I had the new shop built, I opted for a Lafarge product called Agilia. It is a self levelling concrete with standard bearing strength. It uses special aggregates and binders to keep the particles from separating.

Advantages -

Very quick to lay, pumped in.

Surface treatment sprayed on to delay set off and provide anti dust properties.

No trowelling or post pour finish required.

The floor has been down for over 3 years no with nothing else on it - there is still no dust, it resists staining and oil spills.

Oh - and it IS level - I've had a laser on it over the 40' x 21' area and cannot detect anything more than 1/4" any dimension !!!!!

Here is a video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yMHnGOnuhU

AHaury said:

I emailed Doug about this yesterday. An option to consider for this type of equipment is government excess. The website http://www.govsales.gov/
will take you to on-line resources where the public can bid on items pulled from service. You may find great bargains on this type of equipment (or tools or a host of other things). These scrubbers are common in hospitals and you may find one that no longer cleans to the infection control requirements of an OR, but it could be usable for a hanger floor.

Avon

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I could not find the floor scrubbers, but I did see 6 C21 lear jets (operational sans USAF avionics) currently under bid for less that $26k each. That is about half of Bob Axsom's plane. Is this what they really go for? Sorry for drifting off topic.

BillL said:

I could not find the floor scrubbers, but I did see 6 C21 lear jets (operational sans USAF avionics) currently under bid for less that $26k each. That is about half of Bob Axsom's plane. Is this what they really go for? Sorry for drifting off topic.

Click to expand...

Stuff comes and goes and it's a bid situation so some things are a steal.

My new floor

I'm just finishing up this hangar at Aerocountryeast in McKinney Texas. I did a lot of research before I decided what I wanted. I'm not a big epoxy fan, so I wanted to do something different, but I did not want to break the bank either. Captain Avgas is right on. This is a science and if you are going to tackle a big hangar (mine is 5700 sf), do not believe the DIY ads. This is hard work, it takes a lot of time, and if I had not had a concrete expert to keep an eye on me, I would have screwed it up. Take a look at this equipment. They do not have this at my sunbelt rental.

I found a concrete grinder that was willing to work with me. He did the 50 grit and 100 grit grinds with his big machines. He rented his smaller equipment to me and I did the 200, 400, 800, and 1500 grit grinding/polishing. I went over it all twice with each grit, and in some places three times.


I've got $2.50 sf in the floor finishing. Epoxy by a pro would have been $3.50 sf.

Made it Sound Too Easy

Alright - I heard from more than one of the airport bums here at my field this weekend and they informed me that they read Doug's site and saw the picture of my shop floor. They all gave me **** about making the concrete polishing job I did on my shop floor sound too easy. They are partially correct - at least in the total amount of time I spent on the project. No single step was particularly difficult, but it did take several hours to complete the total project. The floor was filthy, had remnants of a 30 year old sealer, and lots of over-spray and glue to remove before I could even get started with the polish job.

Please do understand that one can never admit that these Airport Bums are 100% right, as their heads might explode.

Just to reiterate my own experience, I did not grind the concrete, but started with what I had adopted - 30 years of service, stains and all. I used the 3M Trizac Diamond discs and the 3M Scotchguard floor protector(Nano Technology). The chemical process acts as a barrier and has a higher slip resistance characteristics than standard sealers and floor finishes.

Here is a link to the 3M site, which will provide you with product information as well as How-To Videos: http://www.3mfloorprotection.com/products/3m-stone-floor-protection-system/

Your local Janitorial supply house can line you up with the consumable materials, should you decide to go this route.

The Viper 20HD Autoscrubber that DR is now in love with was used for the polishing that I did with the Diamond discs. That machine also gets some use around the airport for basic as well as heavy duty hangar floor cleaning - which in fact is its primary mission. You can contact the manufacture's point person, Laura Anthony, at [email protected]

Hmmm, are you guys saying that grinding/finishing stones can be had to fit a single-disk floor scrubber similar to this:
http://www.floorcaremall.com/Oreck-Floor-Scrubber-Machine-Buffer-19-Inch-p/xlh-19e.htm

I have one in my hangar that I bought really cheap at auction several years ago, but haven't pursued finding grinding discs for it. If it will work for the 1st stage heavy grinding, I may have to start looking.

Thanks,

Charlie

Low Speed Scrubber

Charlie,

The machine you have will not grind concrete - but you can polish using the diamond discs (4 at a time) and your machine. Results will depend greatly on the quality of concrete you are starting with and how good a job the finishers did back when if was originally poured. It needs to be pretty darn smooth to start with.

The main difference between your machine and the Viper auto scrubber that started this thread, is the fact that you would need to lay down and vacuum up the water in separate steps. The auto scrubber does it all in one pass.

To get the full polish effect you will also need a burnishing machine (geared for about 4 times the RPMs of the scrubber that you have). You could rent one, or may find another killer deal at your next auction.

If you ever make it out to visit DR and the Van Cave, let me know and I will show you what I did at my place.

All the Best,

Clayton

Thanks; that's what I was afraid of. Unfortunately, I'll have to do some serious grinding before I can start any kind of polishing operation.

I might be better off looking at pouring some of that self leveling concrete on top, if I ever decide do something about it.

Charlei

be careful

Several years ago I ground the floor in my garage. The machine I rented was a dry machine with a vacuum bag and I wore a respirator. A few days later I got so sick with flu-like symptoms I was in bed for two days. Found out later it was caused by concrete dust poisoning.