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  #11  
Old 05-28-2013, 12:03 PM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
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Originally Posted by rzbill View Post
Right you are. Since I have a 430W, I started looking for the manuals on the web to see what options I have.

I was disturbed/confused to see a note in the GTX-23 manual that described 3 versions of ADS-B TSO compliance. (Paragraph 1.3.1) Versions 0,1 and 2. According to this chart, the GTX is version 1 and does not comply with the version 2 that is mandated for 2020.

I hope someone on VAF with more knowledge of the GTX 23 can elucidate on the subject.

I am not slamming the Garmin or supporting the Trig via this email. Since I have not read the Trig manuals (yet), I cannot state whether it is better or worse in this regard. Just looking for the truth of the matter.
Bill,

The last firmware update released for the GTX23ES makes it V2 (TSO-C166b) compliant...it's 100% ready to go with the rules as they stand today.

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Last edited by Brantel : 05-28-2013 at 12:14 PM.
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  #12  
Old 05-28-2013, 12:19 PM
emuyshondt emuyshondt is offline
 
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Originally Posted by N804RV View Post
It sounds like I'll have to have a TSO'd WAAS enabled GPS, as well as a Mode-S transponder. Is that right?
This is true, but it doesn't mean you need a fully TSO'd moving map display. Trig Avionics, for example, seem to have an STC that works with a standalone GPS sensor that should be significantly less expensive than most panel mounted TSO'd moving map displays that many think of when speaking of a WAAS GPS.
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  #13  
Old 05-28-2013, 12:39 PM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emuyshondt View Post
This is true, but it doesn't mean you need a fully TSO'd moving map display. Trig Avionics, for example, seem to have an STC that works with a standalone GPS sensor that should be significantly less expensive than most panel mounted TSO'd moving map displays that many think of when speaking of a WAAS GPS.
This GPS goes for around $3000.00 for $995.00 more Garmin will sell you a full GNS400W when you buy it with a G3X system.
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Brantel (Brian Chesteen), 2014 =VAF= Supporter
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Lyc. O-360 carbed, HARTZELL BA CS Prop, MAG/P-MAG Garmin G3X Touch
Track N159SB (KK4LIF)
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Last edited by Brantel : 05-28-2013 at 12:44 PM.
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  #14  
Old 05-28-2013, 05:29 PM
emuyshondt emuyshondt is offline
 
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Sarasota Avionics has a Freeflight unit for $2189. Trig also works with otner manufacturers of standalone GPS sensors. hopefully this will bring prices down even further.

My point, though, is that over time it should be possible to get a transponder/ADS-B out box that doesn't require you to purchase a whole moving map GPS system. I prefer to use my iPad with a current navigation database in VFR conditions than a GNS430W with outdated data. Garmin's database update prices are outrageous. These update prices, more than the initial hardware cost, is what keeps me away from Garmin equipment.
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  #15  
Old 05-28-2013, 05:56 PM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emuyshondt View Post
Sarasota Avionics has a Freeflight unit for $2189. Trig also works with otner manufacturers of standalone GPS sensors. hopefully this will bring prices down even further.

My point, though, is that over time it should be possible to get a transponder/ADS-B out box that doesn't require you to purchase a whole moving map GPS system. I prefer to use my iPad with a current navigation database in VFR conditions than a GNS430W with outdated data. Garmin's database update prices are outrageous. These update prices, more than the initial hardware cost, is what keeps me away from Garmin equipment.
The Sarasota price you mention is only valid when you purchase another $3500.00+ Rangr box.

I do share your optimism that eventually we will see more GPS only position sources that meet the requirements and for less money. Right now I don't think that solution is significantly less expensive. Eventually I think it will happen. There is one kink in the whole mess however. Last time I researched it, I seem to remember the rules state that the maker of the UAT or S/ES xponder must list the specific position sources approved for use with their box in their installation manuals. This will slow down the adoption of these lower cost GPS only position sources.

Garmin's IFR database update cost are what they are because of Jeppesen and its the price all must pay to play in the IFR world. They pretty much have the market for IFR Nav databases locked up. Garmin has taken steps to help ease the pain with VFR pilots. Their new VFR database options are much less expensive for the portables and the G3X.
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Last edited by Brantel : 05-28-2013 at 06:07 PM.
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  #16  
Old 05-28-2013, 07:21 PM
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N401RH N401RH is offline
 
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The same thing happened with the 406 ELT. My neighbor got very wealthy selling Artex during the height of the 406 ELT hype. You can now buy a 406 ELT for about a fourth of what the early adopters paid.

I will guarantee you that there will be a sub $1000 and most likely sub $500 certified GPS solution before the 2020 requirement arrives.

We have been selling a lot of the Trig/Dynon Mode S ES transponders. Most people are connecting them to an uncertified GPS and waiting for a reasonably priced certified GPS to arrive. The Trig/Dynon Transponder is a lot smaller and lighter than the other options available.

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems Inc.
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  #17  
Old 05-28-2013, 08:29 PM
emuyshondt emuyshondt is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Brantel View Post
Garmin's IFR database update cost are what they are because of Jeppesen and its the price all must pay to play in the IFR world.
Garmin themselves don't charge nearly the same for updates to their Garmin Pilot app as they door their portable and panel mount devices. Garmin Pilot includes geo-referenced approach plates for all the US along with both vector and sectional databases. Pretty much all the data you need for their hardware for $125/yr. I don't buy their excuse about the cost for Jeppesen data. Everybody else seems to be able to provide VFR and IFR navigation data for much less, whether in apps for iOS or Android devices, or for hardware, like the iFly 720.
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Last edited by emuyshondt : 05-29-2013 at 02:53 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  #18  
Old 05-28-2013, 11:55 PM
SteinAir SteinAir is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emuyshondt View Post
Garmin themselves don't charge near.y the same for dates to their Garmin Pilot app as they door their portable and panel mount devices. Garmin Pilot includes geo-referenced approach plates for all the US along with both vector and sectional databases. Pretty much all the data you need for their hardware for $125/yr. I don't buy their excuse about the cost for Jeppesen data. Everybody else seems to be able to provide VFR and IFR navigation data for much less, whether in apps for iOS or Android devices, or for hardware, like the iFly 720.
Hmmm... I believe I'd like you to show me a Jepp database for a certified box (or even experimental) for $125 a year or less that you can actually use legally for IFR (your tablet or iFly or whatever isn't). Heck, even the Dynon Jepp data is $175/315 or $295/530 per year. Me thinks you're confusing your tablet for a certified box or an EFIS, of which it is neither. Also, have you actually checked the update prices & options for their G3X EFIS? Then again, the G3X or Dynon isn't a certified GPS either. Just wondering, because you're now comparing apples and onions.

BTW I do share the opinion that the Jepp data is expensive, and Rob is probably right that prices will likely fall in he future.

Cheers,
Stein
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  #19  
Old 05-29-2013, 02:59 AM
emuyshondt emuyshondt is offline
 
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I was not making any distinctions on types of data. The data provides very similar information on both IFR and VFR devices of various kinds. However, even talking VFR data, the database on the Garmin Pilot app looks just like the data on the Garmin handhelds and costs a whole lot less. Garmin and/or Jeppesen are gouging pilots on the database updates.

To get back to the original post, there will eventually be ADS-B systems that don't require expensive database updates and complex hardware to operate. It will still be expensive for the function provided (what in aviation isn't), but not as much as today's solutions.
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Last edited by emuyshondt : 05-29-2013 at 03:32 AM.
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  #20  
Old 05-29-2013, 06:21 AM
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Brantel Brantel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emuyshondt View Post
Garmin themselves don't charge nearly the same for updates to their Garmin Pilot app as they door their portable and panel mount devices. Garmin Pilot includes geo-referenced approach plates for all the US along with both vector and sectional databases. Pretty much all the data you need for their hardware for $125/yr. I don't buy their excuse about the cost for Jeppesen data. Everybody else seems to be able to provide VFR and IFR navigation data for much less, whether in apps for iOS or Android devices, or for hardware, like the iFly 720.
Garmin now has a much less expensive database option for their portables and the G3X. Last I checked it was $99/yr. I just looked at two major stores and the Pro package for the Garmin Pilot app was $149.00/yr. Most everyone charges more for Geo-referenced plates because they have to pay royalties/fees to the owner of the patent.

"Everybody else seems to be able to provide VFR and IFR navigation data for much less, whether in apps for iOS or Android devices, or for hardware, like the iFly 720."

The IFR part of this statement simply is not true because none of those devices are legal for use as primary navigation in the IFR environment.

Many people wonder why Garmin does not provide free VFR database updates like most of their competitors do. I have my own personal theory as to why....LIABILITY!
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Brantel (Brian Chesteen), 2014 =VAF= Supporter
RV-7/TU, #72823, N159SB
Lyc. O-360 carbed, HARTZELL BA CS Prop, MAG/P-MAG Garmin G3X Touch
Track N159SB (KK4LIF)
Like EAA Chapter 1494 on Facebook

Last edited by Brantel : 05-29-2013 at 06:29 AM.
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