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Radio etiquette at uncontrolled fields?

N941WR

N941WR

Legacy Member
Back in the dark ages when I learned to fly, we were taught to give position reports for non-controlled airports which include the following:

Airport Traffic ("Trafffic," if talking to other planes or "Unicom," if talking to the people in the building.)
Aircraft type
N-number
Position / Intentions
Airport

For example, ?Sometown trafffic, Cessna 123 Alpha Bravo, 5 miles to the southeast, inbound for landing, Sometown traffic.?, ?Sometown traffic, Cessna 123 Alpha Brovo entering left downwind, Sometown traffic.?, or ?Sometown Unicom, Cessna 123 Alpha Brovo, Airport advisory please, Sometown Airport.?

This started and ended with the airport, so other traffic knew where to look for you and at which airport you were talking to so they knew if it was relevant or not. It also included the aircraft type, which to me is more important than the N-number.

The reason is simple. If I see a Cessna and a Piper in the pattern and someone calls out, ?Sometime Airport, 123 Alpha Brovo, downwind for 22, Sometown airport,? how do I know if the person making that call is one of the two airplanes I see in the pattern? Is it possible that I just cut off a third airplane that I did not see?

The other thing that has come into use lately on uncontrolled fields is position reporting on the field. i.e.: ?Cessna 123 Alpha Bravo is taxing to runway 22 for departure.? I?m not sure why this came into common use and I have heard people say it is for safety reasons.

It occurred to me recently that this is not a safe practice as the airplanes taxiing on uncontrolled fields typically can see aircraft taxing, so it is unnecessary.

The reason it is not a safe practice is that with our congested frequencies, those people who are on the ground can only hear a small fraction of the radio traffic and more often than not ?step on? other transmissions without knowing it. The added radio congestion can add to confusion, missed position reports, etc., thus reducing safety.

I haven?t even mentioned the infamous, ?Sometime traffic, Cessna 123 Alpha Brovo, please advise.? Every time hear that I want to reply, ?Their food is good, I advise you try the meatloaf.?

Thoughts, comments, etc.?
 
Bill,

It's not uncommon for some of us locally to omit the tail number and just use something like "Stead Traffic, Yellow RV is midfield left downwind for 08, Stead" since it is easier to spot the yellow RV than it is to figure out which of the multiple RVs in the pattern has the tail number 7965A.

I would always report taxiing across any runway, just in case (and after looking closely!). But "taxiing to the fuel pumps" seems unnecessary unless there is some special safety condition that warrants the call.

And I always want to say "advise that you learn some clearer radio procedures" to the pilot who hasn't bothered to listen for what's going on locally and just barges into the area.

greg
 
The other thing that has come into use lately on uncontrolled fields is position reporting on the field. i.e.: ?Cessna 123 Alpha Bravo is taxing to runway 22 for departure.? I?m not sure why this came into common use and I have heard people say it is for safety reasons.

It occurred to me recently that this is not a safe practice as the airplanes taxiing on uncontrolled fields typically can see aircraft taxing, so it is unnecessary.
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We do it, because the runway is around a mile long, and sometimes we end up with aircraft at both ends, depending on changing wind conditions, etc. I really prefer to know if someone is taxiing the other direction. Sometimes, we'll notice the wind has changed, thanks to someone's call, .......and then switch ends our selves.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
I love it when I hear, "Plymouth traffic, Cessna 990 is on a left final for 24 at Plymouth."

Hahaha

That and when they Take the active I want t tell them to leave some for me to use!

:D CJ
 
"traffic, silver RV 10 miles southwest at 3000, traffic, traffic, silver RV 45 to the L/R downwind, traffic, traffic, silver RV downwind, base final, traffic", etc,. Works for me.

I doubt they can read my 3" N numbers and it's not required at a non-towered airport anyway.

What I hate is when people call local landmarks, like "I am over the Pudnucker factory inbound". When I move to town, I will look that up, for now let's stick with recognized directions!
 
ctaf

The worst is sometown traffic cessna 123 20 miles west at 12,500 transiting the area, followed by multipe calls ending with cessna 123 20 miles east clear of the area. This seems to come from one well know flight school. I used to tell my students, one call downwind and then no more calls until you're down and clear. This may not be technically correct, but it preferable to a 2 hour solo pilot flying into the ground on base to final turn with the mike in hand. First three items on the generic emergency checklist
1. Fly the airplane
2. Fly the airplane
3 .Fly the airplane
Any one remember the results of three crewmembers all working on changeing a light bulb. Miami Lockheed 1011. 1970's
 
Good judement "should" prevail, and assume everyone is NORDO

It is very situation dependant. If I am at our EAA bkfst meeting, with 100 plus aircraft manuevering around a very small airport I announce every intention, including taxiing to the pumps or to the active. Way to many aircraft taxiing around for me to assume that I can see all of them and they can all see me. You could argue if that makes things better or worse I guess.

On our home field, there are no taxiways, and tree's around the runway obscure the runway on downwind. It is also a one way runway the majority of the time, landing and taking off in opposite directions. If you don't announce you are back taxiing, you are setting yourself up for a mishap.

I dont think there is any perfect way to communicate via radio regardless. I try to remind people that we all should assume that there are aircraft out there NORDO. It is perfectly legal, although uncommon anymore even in the antique world. It is also quite common for people to be announcing on the wrong frequency and be fat dumb and happy thinking eveyone can here them.

If we all assume that everyone is NORDO, or assume that there might be someone out there who is, we then rely on our good senses to check lines of flight, check final before taxiing onto the active, etc... I NEVER assume that I have checked everyone in via their communications and have them all in site or accounted for. It is the guy that I dont know about that I am looking for.

I had a radio failure some time ago on downwind just to have a Mooney driver pull out in front of me on short final. I could not transmit but I still could hear. I heard every bad move that guy mades so I was prepared to take evasive action. He never checked final once and flew away never knowing what even happened.
 
jrs14855 said:
I used to tell my students, one call downwind and then no more calls until you're down and clear. This may not be technically correct, but it preferable to a 2 hour solo pilot flying into the ground on base to final turn with the mike in hand. First three items on the generic emergency checklist
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Back in the old days, I use to think that making too many calls in the pattern, such as crosswind, downwind, & base was unnecessary. But now that I'm with them (the spam cans) in the pattern, with my faster RV; or waiting to takeoff.........I want to know exactly where they are, or at least close. The planes easily blend into the subdivisions around here, and it's very easy to loose sight of them.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
The most common error I hear in position reports is not including an altitude. Sure helps to know whether to look above or below you.

While I dont use it, I have a hard time getting worked up about the "any traffic in the area/pattern, please advise" call. There are plenty of folks that simply dont chime in when they really should, and if this helps prod them into a call, then safety has increased. The argument about "clogging up the frequency" just isnt valid 95% of the time at my airport, and besides, if there are a bunch of folks already providing position reports, the "please advise" line is no longer applicable and doesnt seem to be used in my experience.

erich
 
Zero one or just one?

Back in the old days (mid 70s) I was taught to try and keep things clear and concise, I still hit the mic button now and then and start the conversation with a long ahhhh, I hate it when I do that. But, something that I hear more now than we used to is referring to runway one, as runway zero one, I?m not sure how this makes anything clearer, but maybe it?s just me. Is this the accepted radio phraseology now?
 
No such thing as "Runway Zero One".

Single digit runways should not be preceded by a Zero.
 
Location

My two biggest pet peeves are the people that call in where they're not, such as "Cessna 123AB over point X-ray inbound", when in fact they are not over point X-ray, they are 3 miles from point X-ray. This is particularly disturbing when I AM over point X-ray and can't see anyone else.

That and people who fly the pattern 5 miles from the runway and don't turn base until they're in the next county.

As long as I'm ranting, there is also a new feature on Comm radios that needs to be communicated to the flying public. You can LISTEN on them too. It's amazing to me the number of people that figure as long as they're transmitting everyone else will just get out of their way.

Good night, and have pleasant tomorrow.
 
"please advise"

The latest edition of Airman's Information Manual states:

"Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, "Traffic in the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.


http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0401.html
under 4-1-9g1.

Jim Baker
RV-6
CFI
 
JonJay said:
I try to remind people that we all should assume that there are aircraft out there NORDO. It is perfectly legal, although uncommon anymore even in the antique world.
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At my airport 10-20% of the aircraft are no radio. Many summer afternoons you can have 4 people with no radio and 4 people with radios in the pattern at the same time.
I use radio to tell others where I am and watch out the window to know where those not listening to me are. Fun times.

N941WR said:
I haven’t even mentioned the infamous, “Sometime traffic, Cessna 123 Alpha Brovo, please advise.” Every time hear that I want to reply, “Their food is good, I advise you try the meatloaf.”
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Greg Arehart said:
Bill,
And I always want to say "advise that you learn some clearer radio procedures" to the pilot who hasn't bothered to listen for what's going on locally and just barges into the area.
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Excellent suggestions. I have been looking for good come backs for the "please advise" radio call (which is specifically called out in the AIM 4-1-9.g.1 as not a recognized position or intention phrase) Now I just need something to repond for all the "radio check" calls.
erich weaver said:
While I dont use it, I have a hard time getting worked up about the "any traffic in the area/pattern, please advise" call. There are plenty of folks that simply dont chime in when they really should, and if this helps prod them into a call, then safety has increased.
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Announcing your intention ought to prod them to make a radio call.
 
rv699jb said:
The latest edition of Airman's Information Manual states:

"Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF. This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots stating, "Traffic in the area, please advise" is not a recognized Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used under any condition.


http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0401.html
under 4-1-9g1.

Jim Baker
RV-6
CFI
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Amazing - a full page of posts before someone finally pointed out that the AIM actually covers what we are ALL supposed to be doing. Not every pilot reads VAF (sorry Doug...:p), so it doesn't make any difference at all what we agree to here - everyone who shares the sky is supposed to be using the same procedures, and they are covered in - and should be taught from - the AIM. I am a bit horrified at some of the things folks do, and then say others should do - that aren't SOP.
 
While we are complaining, the big flight school near me often states their position as a missed approach point, a hold, or some other IFR position that does little good to many of the locals. Not real helpful if you are not IFR, or have a plate in front of you on a CAVU day.

But the worst thing to come out of the big pilot factory is the huge percentage of chinese students, who are almost impossible to understand:confused:

Keep your head on a swivel!!!
 
"Experimental" or "RV" ??

So, I have been announcing as "Experimental" 210 LM------but a local ex FAA guy suggested I use "RV" instead.

His reasoning was most pilots know what an RV is, but "Experimental" could be anything from a powered parachute to a turbine Lanceair--------and with a rather wide spread of pattern speeds ETC.

How do you folks do it??
 
"faster RV..." ???

I don't get it. Could go 120 kias on downwind in a spam can, but most of us pork shoulder pilots slow it down usually under 90 in the pattern. Are you saying an RV can't manage such a boring speed safely?

Please explain.

Perhaps there is another forum where they complain about RV pilots who come into the pattern way too fast, though I'm sure none of us would ever do that...
 
Mike S said:
So, I have been announcing as "Experimental" 210 LM------but a local ex FAA guy suggested I use "RV" instead.

His reasoning was most pilots know what an RV is, but "Experimental" could be anything from a powered parachute to a turbine Lanceair--------and with a rather wide spread of pattern speeds ETC.

How do you folks do it??
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"Exerimental RV..." is what I use.
 
Very good points, telling each other where you are and what you intend to do in what type aircraft. But, please, Please, PLEASE don't tell me the type of airworthiness certificate you have. "Experimental blah, blah, blah..." That's as useless and nonsensical as all the spam can drivers calling, "Standard, blah, blah, blah...". I can't read the fine print on your A/W any better than the 3" numerals for separation. When I hear some joker using experimental in lieu of type, I'll call and ask what type experimental is it. Maybe the point will get across.

Yeah, approach or tower, whomever you call first, is supposed to hear your experimental A/W per FAR, then you should mimic their response for continued communication. Why so many persist using "experimental" is beyond me, and whatever induced such a reg is probably lost to antiquity.

John Siebold
 
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Mike S said:
So, I have been announcing as "Experimental" 210 LM------but a local ex FAA guy suggested I use "RV" instead.
His reasoning was most pilots know what an RV is, but "Experimental" could be anything from a powered parachute to a turbine Lanceair--------and with a rather wide spread of pattern speeds ETC.
How do you folks do it??
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Unfortunately his "reasoning" doesn't trump FARs, or your operating limitations, which both state that you MUST notify ATC of the experimental nature for your aircraft when operating into or out of an airport with an operational control tower. At non-towered airports, you do NOT need to use the experimental.
 
Please advise...what's the problem?

These threads seem to pop up from time to time, and there is a never a shortage of folks who seem to take joy in pouncing on those clearly inferior pilots who make the "mistake" of uttering the words "please advise" on a CTAF. While I rarely make such a call, I believe it can be useful in certain situations, and will continue to use it when I feel it adds to my situational awareness, and thus safety. Sure, the exact example in the AIM ("traffic in the area, please advise") is a useless radio call because it doesn't specify what "area" the person is talking about; however, that by itself is not a call that I've ever heard someone make on the radio. What we do sometimes hear is something along the lines of "Pleasantville traffic, anyone in pattern, please advise," and I see no harm in that.

I'm all for listening to a frequency inbound to an airport to get a feel for what's going on (runway in use, planes in the pattern, birds on final, speed trap ahead, or other important info we pilots sometimes share on the radio) but what if you were talking to ATC (on flight following perhaps) and they just approved your frequency change 5 miles out? Does it hurt to ask if there is any traffic in the pattern as part of your initial call?

What if you do monitor the CTAF inbound and don't hear any traffic? Is it a terrible idea to make an intial call of "Pleasantville traffic, white RV, five south, inbound landing, any traffic in the pattern, please advise. Pleasantville"? I know of a few pilots who, to avoid radio congestion on the unicom frequency, will quit making radio calls if they are the only one in the pattern and are just shooting a bunch of touch and go's - I guess they get tired of talking to themselves. Now one would hope that once they heard someone call five south and inbound that they would immediately announce their position in the pattern, but again, I see no harm in asking for a traffic advisory.

So, if it makes you feel better to come back on the radio with some clever response any time you hear "please advise" crackle through on the radio, have at it. Just remember that your loaded response is even more of an inappropriate and useless radio call than the person out there who is just looking for traffic, regardless of whether they used AIM-approved lingo.
 
RBD said:
"Pleasantville traffic, anyone in pattern, please advise," and I see no harm in that.
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You have not given any information yourself. Where are you, and what are your intentions? If you state your position and intentions, you don't need to "ask for advisory". Anyone hearing your call should respond if they are a factor.
 
Mel said:
You have not given any information yourself. Where are you, and what are your intentions? If you state your position and intentions, you don't need to "ask for advisory". Anyone hearing your call should respond if they are a factor.
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I completely agree, Mel! You've made me realize that my original post verbiage is not in line with what I intended to write (brain-finger disconnect gets me a couple times a day.) The second example in my post (in the third paragraph) that does include a position report along with the forbidden "please advise" request is what I have no problem with, but a lot of folks seem to get hung on any use of the phrase.
 
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delusional said:
I don't get it. Could go 120 kias on downwind in a spam can, but most of us pork shoulder pilots slow it down usually under 90 in the pattern. Are you saying an RV can't manage such a boring speed safely?

Please explain.

Perhaps there is another forum where they complain about RV pilots who come into the pattern way too fast, though I'm sure none of us would ever do that...
Click to expand...

Have you ever taken off behind a typical Cessna 172 in an RV? And then watched them laberously climb to altitude, in which it's time to descend for landing again. I'll never huff & puff in the RV like that. But on the other hand, my airport's at 4600', which makes the Cessna a real slug for takeoff & climb performance. I suppose it's quite different as sea level.

I'm also amazed when I'm getting close to making the 45 to downwind. A Cessna will call cross-wind, and it seems like 10 more minutes to get to mid downwind. I've gone back out, did a 360, and the Cessna is still on downwind. Nope..........I think my RV would fall out of the sky, should I poke along so s......l.......o........w........:D

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Herlong, RV 309MK, 10 miles North, out of 3500 VFR, say landing traffic please, Herlong


works for me
 
What's the problem? (advise traffic in the area)

RBD said:
These threads seem to pop up from time to time, and there is a never a shortage of folks who seem to take joy in pouncing on those clearly inferior pilots who make the "mistake" of uttering the words "please advise" on a CTAF. ) .
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If I remember when this was "adopted" the very early explanation of why this was a problem is that there may be multiple people in "the area". Who advises first, how do you know, what if there are ten airplanes out there? What is "the area", ten miles or two miles, 1000' agl or 2500'?
I am not hung up on it either, but I don't respond if the person states their position and it does not impact me. I do respond if they don't state their position as I want to know where the heck they are at.
I personally would never correct someones radio call unless it directly impacts safety, like hearing someone call in on an incorrect frequency.
Asking who is in the area is just not very usefull as a general rule IMHO.
 
"any traffic in the area please advise"

I hear this all the time at uncontrolled airports. In addition to being disapproved in the AIM, it serves no real purpose for a couple reasons IMHO. First, some airplanes may not have a radio and are not required to have a radio at a non-towered airport. Of course they won't hear your call for everyone to report their position to you but they are still out there even though you have not heard from them. Does not hearing anyone answer your request for other planes to advise you of their position lead you to believe no other planes are in the area-complacency? Second, if there are two, three, four or more airplanes in the pattern making position reports, do you expect all of them to make new position reports for you? As other experienced pilots have opined, listen up to the frequency before you get to the airport to develop a picture for where the airplanes are, use proper radio procedures when you announce your position, and join the pattern in a manner recommended in the AIM. Finally, keep your eyes outside because some pilots are not where they say they are and some pilots have no radio at all. As an occasional instructor I see far too many pilots spending too much time with their eyes in the cockpit looking at or fiddling with their fancy gadgets instead of doing their part to make "see and avoid" work for VFR flight.
 
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I would also add...for folks not be too hesitant to just talk to the other pilot you might conflict with or need more information from.

ie... I'm crossing midfield for a teardrop to downwind (which is really the best option at one airport due to towers and a bravo shelf) and the other plane is on their crosswind...and if he's thinking, he could envision a conflict if I wasn't paying attention. Something like:

"XXX..normal call....Cessna, I have you in sight, I'll enter the downwind behind you."

...makes it so much easier for both of us, since he's sure that I see him and am not going to 270 into him and I'm not worried about him being worried. Etc... That's just an example, but IMO a lot of problems I see in the pattern would be solved if pilots would just talk to each other when needed (still to the point...not waxing poetic) vs. "talking to the air" in a sometimes overly strict but limiting fashion.
 
Mike S said:
So, I have been announcing as "Experimental" 210 LM------but a local ex FAA guy suggested I use "RV" instead.

His reasoning was most pilots know what an RV is, but "Experimental" could be anything from a powered parachute to a turbine Lanceair--------and with a rather wide spread of pattern speeds ETC.

How do you folks do it??
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Mike,

FWIW: At a non-Towered Airport, or on Approach, Departure, Center, FSS, FW...I use "RV 600 Sierra Sierra". After the first call its 0 Sierra Sierra.

For that first call on TWR/GND, I add Experimental before RV 600SS. Since I sometimes avoid towered airports...not due to the towers, but due to the expensive gas that seems to accompany them :rolleyes:...if I forget "Experimental" on the first call, I add it to my response to their callback, or say, "we're Experimental" after my response. Seems to meet the spirit (and letter) of the reg. I don't use "Experimental" after the first call to tower or ground, though sometimes ATC does...sorta like they use "November" if they forgot the aircraft type or are working a lot of aircraft...which is no big deal (sometimes I say "Center" on first call up to a facility after a frequency change, cause I didn't catch if we just changed facilities...ABQ to DEN, etc...short term memory :eek:).

delusional said:
I don't get it. Could go 120 kias on downwind in a spam can, but most of us pork shoulder pilots slow it down usually under 90 in the pattern. Are you saying an RV can't manage such a boring speed safely?

Please explain.

Perhaps there is another forum where they complain about RV pilots who come into the pattern way too fast, though I'm sure none of us would ever do that...
Click to expand...

Nah, I think the point is to refine "Experimental" with the type, be it "RV" or "Lancair", or "Mustang", or "Kitfox". Most of us would adjust our pattern speed or positioning...maybe stay wide for a slow bird ahead, or keep the speed up if being followed by a P-51...so it just helps everyone adjust a bit if needed. The spirit of it is positive.

JonJay said:
If I remember when this was "adopted" the very early explanation of why this was a problem is that there may be multiple people in "the area". Who advises first, how do you know, what if there are ten airplanes out there? What is "the area", ten miles or two miles, 1000' agl or 2500'?
I am not hung up on it either, but I don't respond if the person states their position and it does not impact me. I do respond if they don't state their position as I want to know where the heck they are at.
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Ditto. No hang ups, and I just keep making my position reports, whether I'm entering, departing, or in the pattern. That should suffice for giving the other plane the runway and pattern information they need. I think a lot of time folks use that "any aircraft in the pattern please advise" when they don't hear anything inbound. If there's a lone plane in the pattern not talking, a 10 mile out call will probably do just as much to get a pattern call from him as a "please advise" call (IMHO).

JonJay said:
I personally would never correct someones radio call unless it directly impacts safety, like hearing someone call in on an incorrect frequency.
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Concur there too. Smart comebacks may feel good initially, but probably add to the problem more than improve the overall picture. Short term, it may make a nervous pilot more so, or make for an angry pilot out there...neither of whom I want to bang around the pattern with! Let it go, and do what you can in the hangar or coffee shop or pub to raise awareness and improve our collective professionalism.

FWIW, when I first heard the "please advise" call it sounded like not such a bad call, then I heard some didn't like it, and later read here that it was not preferred (and why). Tonight I learned that AIM sez so too. I tried out "Red Experimental" a few times back a while ago, but preferred my N# and the "AIM" way...then found out here, from Gil and others (and APRS), that the FCC is also happier when you ID your station. (self edit) Jeff makes a good point about OSH below...good comm will always win the day, and we can all learn and re-learn!

Comm and pattern discipline are easy things to critique and judge others on...I've seen it (and done it at times) since I started flying a while back. It appears to be one of those things that doesn't change when you have a bunch of type A's doing an activity. How you gain improvement among the group is a tricky deal, and civil discussions like this are one way. And I'm more careful about throwing rocks...since I fly in a (plexi) glass "house"...and never make mistakes (ahem) ;).

Cheers,
Bob
 
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Mike S said:
So, I have been announcing as "Experimental" 210 LM------but a local ex FAA guy suggested I use "RV" instead.
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Good for the FAA guy! (This is my particular radio pet peeve.) The purpose of communications, and not just radio communications, is to convey useful information to the listener. While you may be justifiably proud of your status as "experimental" that information is not really useful to the other airplanes in the pattern at an non-towered airport. "Red RV" is much more useful and succinct than "Experimental arr-vee one eight seven charlie fox."

If you want to see this idea taken to it's extreme- listen to the Fisk arrival controllers at Oshkosh. "red RV... yellow Cub-type... blue low-wing... white Cessna... green Cherokee..." and so on. Gets the important stuff across with a minimum of radio chatter, and serves as a good model for the rest of us.
 
announce on the ground

I did a lot of flying from a busy grass non-towered airstrip in New Hampshire. The ground call recommendations passed on by the based pilots and the flight instructors was to announce "Sometown Traffic, Stearman 1234A, Runway 02 for takeoff, Sometown". We did this because there were high trees on the approach end of the runway and it was possible to miss anyone why was flying a wide pattern or the occasional visitor pulling a "straight in".

The other call we would often do was to add "behind the Piper Cub" etc. to incorporate the large number of slow flying non-radio student pilots and aircraft. This would especially help an RV pilot because it can be a bit of a surprise to enter the pattern and realize there was a plane flying at 45kts on downwind :)

Fortunately, most pilots knew how busy the field was on good flying days and were on their best behavior.
 
"Pleasantville traffic, anyone in pattern, please advise," and I see no harm in that.
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Harm? If the frequency is not congested you are right, no harm. However the AIM specifically goes to the effort to adress the subject so why ignore it? Is that how you operate? What else does not apply to that pilot?

This is how I describe it to students (and while doing flight reviews with pilots if they use the term): If someone makes a radio call, and you, or they are new on the frequency update your position reporting at the earliest appropriate time (ie, don't step on someone, or if you know another aircraft is closer to their position give pause in order for them to respond, etc.) I also point to the AIM where it is mentioned and discuss this concept: If you call in with your position and a pilot in the area does not respond do you really think that verbage will get them to reply? Well, gee, he did ask nicely... I wasn't going to reply, but oh heck, here I am! Or, well gee he didn't bother to ask if I was in the area so I won't reply. I don't believe that is how many pilots operate.

A lot of pilots use the term but when I hear it, competent, or professional is not my first thought.

Just one guys opinion.

Mark
 
EXACTLY!

RV Wannabe said:
Harm? If the frequency is not congested you are right, no harm. However the AIM specifically goes to the effort to address the subject so why ignore it? Is that how you operate? What else does not apply to that pilot?
This is how I describe it to students (and while doing flight reviews with pilots if they use the term): If someone makes a radio call, and you, or they are new on the frequency update your position reporting at the earliest appropriate time (i.e., don't step on someone, or if you know another aircraft is closer to their position give pause in order for them to respond, etc.) I also point to the AIM where it is mentioned and discuss this concept: If you call in with your position and a pilot in the area does not respond do you really think that verbage will get them to reply? Well, gee, he did ask nicely... I wasn't going to reply, but oh heck, here I am! Or, well gee he didn't bother to ask if I was in the area so I won't reply. I don't believe that is how many pilots operate.
A lot of pilots use the term but when I hear it, competent, or professional is not my first thought.
Just one guys opinion.
Mark
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That would be at least 2 Guy's and the AIM's opinion!
 
sprucemoose said:
...While you may be justifiably proud of your status as "experimental" that information is not really useful to the other airplanes in the pattern at an non-towered airport...
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It's not pride - I think the requirement to indicate "Experimental" serves as a warning to all others out there that there is a "home made" aircraft in the area. Remember, we're not even supposed to fly over populated areas according to some. We have become so accustomed to sharing the sky as if we are "real" airplanes (and justifiably so), we forget that we are still widely viewed as a dangerous segment of aviation.

Just so nobody accuses me of being a stickler for the rules; I always modify my ?non-ATC? radio procedures and drop my N number in favor of color and description. I know that at a non towered airport I could care less what the N number is ? I want to know if there?s a radio call from a yellow airplane on downwind, and I see a blue one, I?m not ready to join the downwind.
...I'd also rather keep my N number a secret from every maniac with a scanner and an agenda whenever possible - but that's a whole different discussion.

I think the rules requiring the radio station ID should not trump the different "practical" requirements for towered and non towered airports. If you?re going to use your N number on the CTAF, please indicate color and type as well.
 
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CTAF radio etiquette

There are three fields that share the same freq with my home field within radio earshot. We mix biz jets with RVs with Cherokees with Cubs that have no radio; it can get hairy at times. Here's my $0.02 worth on the topic:

- to the point, including aircraft type, location and color with airport name beginning and end

- when there's a lot of traffic in the pattern, talking to each other helps a lot

- I get the bizjet/turboprop calling a 10 mile straight in final but anything less and you should mix it up in the pattern with the rest of us. Oh yeah, and don't wait to make the second call at a mile out and expect me, getting ready to turn final, to make way for you. (OK, I probably will from a safety perspective but I won't be happy about it.)
 
Traffic Advisories

Read somewhere else, but I like the way it's put:

There are two beefs here. One beef is with the notion that the way a pilot becomes aware of traffic in the pattern is by ordering a roll call upon entry to the pattern. "I am here, and I now request that everybody else here identify themselves for me". The way the system works is that aircraft make position reports, other pilots listen for those, and in so doing become aware of who else is there, in conjunction with visual scanning and identification. It's a "look, broadcast and listen" system, not an "on demand hollah-back system".

The second beef is with those who habitually add ATITAPA to every position report, like a nervous tick. There's almost an implication that if you didn't say "ATITAPA", then that airplane that's about to join you in a fiery maelstrom of death wouldn't say anything because he wasn't asked. It's just wasted verbiage.

In short, make your calls, listen to everybody else's calls, keep your head on a swivel, don't assume that everybody has a radio (tuned to the right frequency, and using it), be clear and terse in your calls.
 
Mike S said:
So, I have been announcing as "Experimental" 210 LM------but a local ex FAA guy suggested I use "RV" instead.

His reasoning was most pilots know what an RV is, but "Experimental" could be anything from a powered parachute to a turbine Lanceair--------and with a rather wide spread of pattern speeds ETC.

How do you folks do it??
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Mike, this is one of the reasons I chose 446RV for my "N" number. By including RV as part of the number my thoughts were that it would be relatively clear what type of aircraft I am when I state "Experimental 446 Romeo Victor".

The numbers are the serial number of my kit from Vans but I also noticed that they flow very fluidly off of the tongue when spoken so it all comes out of my mouth very seamlessly. So much so that I am not even tempted to abbreviate my call sign. It is just always "Experimental 446 Romeo Victor".
 
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Rather than beat a dead horse...
Here is a previous discussion on the "please advise" topic: http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...=advise&page=1
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Maybe at some point it will help get rid of this redicu..... er, I mean, less than professional phrase.

Unless you are actually a stutterer, why would you stutter on the radio? A position report by a new to the frequency aircraft IS a request for people to "advise", a request for people to "advise".

Mark
 
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Captain_John said:
...and when they Take the active...
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This "the active" deal is really mysterious to me. It is kind of like people who engage the turn signal after they have started turning. They have gone to the same effort as if they had done it correctly, yet have imparted no useful information.

I guess a runway is "active" by definition, if one is using it, but no knowledge at all is imparted as to exactly WHAT runway is being used. Just about as easy to say "runway 21" and then I know what you are talking about.
 
CTAF

Taking a great deal of liberty with Capt. Jepppesons famous words, a pilot is a machine operator, manipulating a set of controls. An aviator is a Rembrandt or Picasso. Their canvas is the sky, their brush an airplane. The person who says runway zero six, or any traffic in the area please advise is a pilot. If this person has 25000 hours and still does this, it is highly unlikely they will ever achieve aviator status.
Just one additional detail, to achieve aviator status in my opinion, you have to be able to tell me who Wolfgang Langeweishie and Gill Robb Wilson were, promising that you will not seek assistance from Mr. Google.
 
jrs14855 said:
Just one additional detail, to achieve aviator status in my opinion, you have to be able to tell me who Wolfgang Langeweishie and Gill Robb Wilson were, promising that you will not seek assistance from Mr. Google.
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W.L. wrote a book subtitled "an explanation of the art of flying"

Other guy???
 
Mike S said:
W.L. wrote a book subtitled "an explanation of the art of flying"...QUOTE]

The title would be Stick and Rudder.

Guess I'm 3/4 aviator. The name Gill Rob Wilson is familiar to me, but I can't seem to connect all the proper neurons to remember who he was. (I'm assuming using Yahoo search in lieu of Google would meet the letter but not the spirit of your intent.;))
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aviator

Mr. L's first book was I'll Take the High Road. It was about his personal experience learning to fly in the depression era. It is was the first aviation book to inspire me. I still have a copy. He wrote Stick and Rudder about three years later. Stick and Rudder is still available at Barnes and Noble. I also have a photocopy of a page from Mr. L's logbook from 1938. Gill Robb Wilson was a pioneer aviator, a long time editor of Flying Magazine and many other things.
 
5 pages of radio chatter, and I didn't see a single person mention that the most important thing is to look out the window. :mad: If you're depending on CTAF advisories to keep you safe, you're setting yourself up for trouble.
 
Tell that to the controllers at Charleston, SC...I was "cleared to land on runway 0 3" and read back my clearance as "cleared to land runway 3" and the controller insisted that I respond "cleard to land runway 0 3".

I guess it is because they have a 3 and a 33??? Not sure but that is what they did. I was not in the mood for arguing with him so I let it slide.

Mel said:
Single digit runways should not be preceded by a Zero.
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I do not respond to the "please advise" request. I do make appropriate position reports.
 
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