Van's Air Force
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Shattered Canopy...
- Thread starter idleup
- Start date
sprucemoose
Well Known Member
Yikes! You are very matter-of-fact about this. It would have reduced me to tears.
Anyway, I would start here, at Todd's canopies. I don't have first hand knowledge but they have gotten very good reviews.
http://www.toddscanopies.com/
Anyway, I would start here, at Todd's canopies. I don't have first hand knowledge but they have gotten very good reviews.
http://www.toddscanopies.com/
Yes, I am still in shock. It tumbled in the air quite a bit before smashing into the road and then sliding into a FedEx truck. For those of you using SikaFlex you may be interested to know that while the rest of the canopy plexi was destroyed none of the areas where it is glued show any signs of separating or even cracking...
As for Todd's Canopies that is the first place I looked because I also have heard the reviews. Interestingly though he does not offer a Canopy for the side-by-sides...
I also would love to know if anyone has started making a one peice skirt for the tip up like they have for the sliders?
- Matt
As for Todd's Canopies that is the first place I looked because I also have heard the reviews. Interestingly though he does not offer a Canopy for the side-by-sides...
I also would love to know if anyone has started making a one peice skirt for the tip up like they have for the sliders?
- Matt
DaX
Well Known Member
Matt - Mind taking some pictures for all of us? This is unfortunate, yet good data.
bkilby
Well Known Member
Here's a link to a post with the info for Airplane Plastics. They can drop ship to you for around $150. I believe the canopy is $1,000. I ordered one earlier this year.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=258277&postcount=5
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=258277&postcount=5
It was on the fuselage without bolts in the front but the latch is functional. However, I must have forgot to latch it so really it was only held on using the pressure from pushing the forward hinge arms into the joints. It was not loose so it didnt catch my attention unfortunately...
- Matt
- Matt
That sucks man...I bet your heart sank when you saw it come off in the rear view mirror...
Although it really sucks and is going to cost me a lot of money, I am trying to look at the positive side. I have a few things I would do differently this time and intend to do so...
- Matt
Peter.Fruehling
Well Known Member
Matt I'm so sorry to hear about the canopy. However, that is about the coolest way to wreck one I have ever heard. Most of us crack them with a squeezer etc. You did it with style...
...trying to find a silver lining for you buddy! That's a tough one!
- Peter
...trying to find a silver lining for you buddy! That's a tough one!
- Peter
What I have learned from this and will do different next time...
Part of my coping with this tragedy is to focus on what I could do better next time.
I just got done writing a really long email about what I would do differently this next time, and I lost it! Anyway, I will write what I can again below as I am sure one or two of you investigating gluing would you care to know...
1. Next time I will only glue the front and back. 99% of the visual benefit of gluing your canopy is the smooth, screw-less, black strip that divides the tip up portion from the back stationary portion of the canopy. 99% of the work was in gluing the sides and improvising to allow it to work out correctly. Here are a few reasons why:
a. In order to maintain a 3/16? glue bead and still have your side skirts match up I had to build the canopy frame 6/16? of an inch narrower; this caused all kinds of problems that throughout the process had to be dealt with.
b. After making the necessary modifications to the canopy frame and ensuring the side skirts were flush, I had a huge gap between the side skirt and the canopy frame the thickness of the bead plus the thickness of the canopy. This gap was only visible from the bottom but required spacers in order to screw the side skirts on and a lot more Sikaflex to fill the gap.
c. It was a pain to position everything perfectly prior to gluing because the clamps that hold it all together were in the way of ensuring it was flush with the fuse all the way around. I had to use duct tape and position and adjust everything with the canopy closed, then open it and use clamps prior to gluing. It was possible, but very time consuming and iterative. Using screws it will be much easier to put it in its final position with the canopy closed and fastened.
d. Without fasteners, finding a way to keep the tops of the side skirts firmly against the canopy is an issue. If you glue on the side skirts, you have to have at least some gap for the glue. With Sikaflex, even the primer has some substance and will create a gap here. Once you glue the sides and the skirts you have to make sure that your glue line is perfectly straight with the top of the metal (inside and out) and this is very, very difficult if you are concerned about that kind of deal.
e. For those people who are considering gluing for the sole reason that you are afraid of starting cracks when you drill your canopy you should know that if you drill the sides only like I am suggesting then it is not as risky. The reason being that if a crack starts when drilling for a screw you can still stop drill it and it will all still be hidden by the canopy frame and side skirts.
f. I still really hate the look of the locknuts on the inside of the canopy and I dont want to use pop rivets on the plexi, so I will probably try to use riv-nuts or hat nuts in some way to hold the plexi on the sides without having ugly locknuts protruding inside, but it will be some sort of fastener rather than glue allowing me to keep the canopy frame standard width and maintaining the ability to put the skirts flush on the frame under the plexi.
2. I will only glue the front once the rest of the canopy is completed. I ended up with some oozing of glue to the inside of the canopy that was not possible to smooth to my satisfaction due to the limited space between the glare shield and canopy frame where they meet. It also created a problem in making the glare shield cover fit cleanly.
3. I will glue the black leather glare shield cover on prior to putting on the canopy bubble, then once the rest of the canopy is secured and I glue the front from the outside I can just do a small bead as required that goes under the glass and against the already in place shield cover for a much cleaner look.
4. I will either put a thing black strip or use black epoxy on the fiberglass transition on the canopy to avoid seeing the back of it from the inside.
Anyway, that is all I can think of right now...
- Matt Johnson
Part of my coping with this tragedy is to focus on what I could do better next time.
I just got done writing a really long email about what I would do differently this next time, and I lost it! Anyway, I will write what I can again below as I am sure one or two of you investigating gluing would you care to know...
1. Next time I will only glue the front and back. 99% of the visual benefit of gluing your canopy is the smooth, screw-less, black strip that divides the tip up portion from the back stationary portion of the canopy. 99% of the work was in gluing the sides and improvising to allow it to work out correctly. Here are a few reasons why:
a. In order to maintain a 3/16? glue bead and still have your side skirts match up I had to build the canopy frame 6/16? of an inch narrower; this caused all kinds of problems that throughout the process had to be dealt with.
b. After making the necessary modifications to the canopy frame and ensuring the side skirts were flush, I had a huge gap between the side skirt and the canopy frame the thickness of the bead plus the thickness of the canopy. This gap was only visible from the bottom but required spacers in order to screw the side skirts on and a lot more Sikaflex to fill the gap.
c. It was a pain to position everything perfectly prior to gluing because the clamps that hold it all together were in the way of ensuring it was flush with the fuse all the way around. I had to use duct tape and position and adjust everything with the canopy closed, then open it and use clamps prior to gluing. It was possible, but very time consuming and iterative. Using screws it will be much easier to put it in its final position with the canopy closed and fastened.
d. Without fasteners, finding a way to keep the tops of the side skirts firmly against the canopy is an issue. If you glue on the side skirts, you have to have at least some gap for the glue. With Sikaflex, even the primer has some substance and will create a gap here. Once you glue the sides and the skirts you have to make sure that your glue line is perfectly straight with the top of the metal (inside and out) and this is very, very difficult if you are concerned about that kind of deal.
e. For those people who are considering gluing for the sole reason that you are afraid of starting cracks when you drill your canopy you should know that if you drill the sides only like I am suggesting then it is not as risky. The reason being that if a crack starts when drilling for a screw you can still stop drill it and it will all still be hidden by the canopy frame and side skirts.
f. I still really hate the look of the locknuts on the inside of the canopy and I dont want to use pop rivets on the plexi, so I will probably try to use riv-nuts or hat nuts in some way to hold the plexi on the sides without having ugly locknuts protruding inside, but it will be some sort of fastener rather than glue allowing me to keep the canopy frame standard width and maintaining the ability to put the skirts flush on the frame under the plexi.
2. I will only glue the front once the rest of the canopy is completed. I ended up with some oozing of glue to the inside of the canopy that was not possible to smooth to my satisfaction due to the limited space between the glare shield and canopy frame where they meet. It also created a problem in making the glare shield cover fit cleanly.
3. I will glue the black leather glare shield cover on prior to putting on the canopy bubble, then once the rest of the canopy is secured and I glue the front from the outside I can just do a small bead as required that goes under the glass and against the already in place shield cover for a much cleaner look.
4. I will either put a thing black strip or use black epoxy on the fiberglass transition on the canopy to avoid seeing the back of it from the inside.
Anyway, that is all I can think of right now...
- Matt Johnson
Matt,
I would be in mourning, not shock. You have my sympathies in spades. I am doing canopy fitting myself and cannot imagine such a tragedy. Now that I am done with sweating a crack from drilling (just finished all drilling last night), you can bet I will check its attachment twice before I haul it to the airport
I know of no skirt to buy, but here http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=33191&highlight=targa is a thread from Brian who built a Targa roof and then added a skirt to a side by side canopy. Its a nice piece of work, thinking of doing it myself - if I can do so well with FG.
Good luck.
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rocketbob
Well Known Member
I feel your pain.
I was working on my rocket about two years ago, and buffing out a small scratch with one of the plexi polishing kits. This of couse was after the entire canopy was finished. I got a little overzealous with it, and heated up the plexi, and voila, had a nice distorted area. Never in my life have I felt nauseated from some sort of emotion, but I nearly threw up. Long story short I got another canopy from Todd and as it worked out, I liked the shape of the new one much better than the one I had. Another side benefit to that I was able to test the Sikaflex bonds, and discovered there is no freakin way a canopy will ever come off as a result from a bond failing.
I was working on my rocket about two years ago, and buffing out a small scratch with one of the plexi polishing kits. This of couse was after the entire canopy was finished. I got a little overzealous with it, and heated up the plexi, and voila, had a nice distorted area. Never in my life have I felt nauseated from some sort of emotion, but I nearly threw up. Long story short I got another canopy from Todd and as it worked out, I liked the shape of the new one much better than the one I had. Another side benefit to that I was able to test the Sikaflex bonds, and discovered there is no freakin way a canopy will ever come off as a result from a bond failing.
dhall_polo
Well Known Member
canopy aerodynamics
I guess there's no doubt that the frame and canopy provide some lift now, eh?
One thing to note, if you get a new canopy from the source, you can explore different tints.
I guess there's no doubt that the frame and canopy provide some lift now, eh?
One thing to note, if you get a new canopy from the source, you can explore different tints.
dhall_polo
Well Known Member
shipping
Van's has to get paid, but they will let you work directly with their vendor, Airplane Plastics, to ship direct from their facility (Kansas or somewhere central).
I live in Georgia. I think I paid $150 freight charge or so, but don't quote me. I picked up the canopy at the loading dock in my truck. The canopy came in a big cardboard box, and it's not that heavy. The box also made for a great working platform.
Van's has to get paid, but they will let you work directly with their vendor, Airplane Plastics, to ship direct from their facility (Kansas or somewhere central).
I live in Georgia. I think I paid $150 freight charge or so, but don't quote me. I picked up the canopy at the loading dock in my truck. The canopy came in a big cardboard box, and it's not that heavy. The box also made for a great working platform.
lightning
Well Known Member
lightning
Well Known Member
Ah, did not catch that later post, was going off the limited info in the first ones....
Yes, I was towing it backwards and it was unlatched. Shame too because I had the latch adjusted and working so smoothly to close it. I do not know how I forgot to latch it since it would have been obvious if the handle was sticking out the side. It may have been unlatched but with the handle pushed back in. I dont think there is any way it could have come off if the back was latched.
- Matt
L.Adamson
Well Known Member
I seen the results of an unlatched slider, without the windscreen in place. The "damaged" vehicle behind it, didn't appreciate it either!
L.Adamson
Pictures...
I know it has been over a year now since this incident happened and I have had request to post the pictures from people who were interested in seeing what would happen to a Sikaflex glued canopy... well this was not a crash but it did catch the wind and fly up about 40' off a trailer on a highway at 60+ mph, tumbled in the air head over a heel and landed straight upside down on the plexi bubble on the road. It then slid in the street until until a FedEx truck hit it...
So anyway, it may be the best real world test that I know of regarding a Sikaflex'ed canopy taking this kind of beating... It is hard to see but the glue was never compromised anywhere and held up perfectly all around...
I know it has been over a year now since this incident happened and I have had request to post the pictures from people who were interested in seeing what would happen to a Sikaflex glued canopy... well this was not a crash but it did catch the wind and fly up about 40' off a trailer on a highway at 60+ mph, tumbled in the air head over a heel and landed straight upside down on the plexi bubble on the road. It then slid in the street until until a FedEx truck hit it...
So anyway, it may be the best real world test that I know of regarding a Sikaflex'ed canopy taking this kind of beating... It is hard to see but the glue was never compromised anywhere and held up perfectly all around...
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Noah
Well Known Member
Matt, just curious if you reused your frame? If so, how did you go about removing the sikaflex? I suspect that since you said you would only sika the front and back the second time around, you would not be able to reuse the frame since it needs to be narrower to glue it. But it has been awhile, so maybe you decided to glue it everywhere?
Airplane Plastics
I am a member of the cracked canopy club (slider).
For those who may be interested in replacement cost (and I hope nobody is) Van's sources their canopies from Airplane Plastics in Ohio.
I managed to crack what would have been the windshield.
A call to Van's told me that a replacement slider canopy is $1050.00 plus around $700.00 shipping drop shipped from Airplane Plastics.
Resigned to that cost, I discovered almost by chance in the course of my call to Van's finalizing the order that Airplane Plastics make a replacement windshield only as well. That was what I needed, and that was $400.00.
I called Airplane Plastics to finalize shipping details, and, timing being perfect, a week before Oshkosh, Airplane Plastics offered to make it in time and bring it to Oshkosh, which worked great for me. They go every year, and so do I.
The one bright spot of the whole canopy breakage experience was the chance to meet and have a beer with the folks who are Airplane Plastics. They are great people and were really helpful. And they do some pretty interesting canopies.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada.
RV-6A finishing
(canopy frame installed, waiting for warm weather to drill the plexi)
I am a member of the cracked canopy club (slider).
For those who may be interested in replacement cost (and I hope nobody is) Van's sources their canopies from Airplane Plastics in Ohio.
I managed to crack what would have been the windshield.
A call to Van's told me that a replacement slider canopy is $1050.00 plus around $700.00 shipping drop shipped from Airplane Plastics.
Resigned to that cost, I discovered almost by chance in the course of my call to Van's finalizing the order that Airplane Plastics make a replacement windshield only as well. That was what I needed, and that was $400.00.
I called Airplane Plastics to finalize shipping details, and, timing being perfect, a week before Oshkosh, Airplane Plastics offered to make it in time and bring it to Oshkosh, which worked great for me. They go every year, and so do I.
The one bright spot of the whole canopy breakage experience was the chance to meet and have a beer with the folks who are Airplane Plastics. They are great people and were really helpful. And they do some pretty interesting canopies.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada.
RV-6A finishing
(canopy frame installed, waiting for warm weather to drill the plexi)
Thanks, I just finished it and am now back in full gear working on the RV... here is a link to pictures of the finished workshop... http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=399010#post399010
Matt,
I am really sorry to hear about your experience, I nearly lost my whole plane off the truck while transporting it for painting. I ran over two speed bumps at 45mgh and luckily it stayed on top of the trailer.
For those who think that the canopy actually lifts as the air moves over it, I highly doubt that. On one of my flight, I forgot to latch the canopy good and it was partially unlatched. I discovered this in the air and was trying to open the latch so I can relatch it. No amount of force (likely) I was able to push it slightly up to get it aligned. Of course I landed at the nearest airport and all was OK.
I am really sorry to hear about your experience, I nearly lost my whole plane off the truck while transporting it for painting. I ran over two speed bumps at 45mgh and luckily it stayed on top of the trailer.
For those who think that the canopy actually lifts as the air moves over it, I highly doubt that. On one of my flight, I forgot to latch the canopy good and it was partially unlatched. I discovered this in the air and was trying to open the latch so I can relatch it. No amount of force (likely) I was able to push it slightly up to get it aligned. Of course I landed at the nearest airport and all was OK.
dhall_polo
Well Known Member
Sand it off.
I should think it would not be difficult to remove the excess sika with a die grinder and a low grit pad. You should be able to cut through both plexi and sika to get down to bare metal. I would think this would be less work and expense than rebuilding the entire canopy frame.
BTW, I did forget to latch the canopy once, but thankfully, I had the canopy handle twisted to the closed position. The canopy was being pulled upward, but the handle kept it from being more than a crack.
I should think it would not be difficult to remove the excess sika with a die grinder and a low grit pad. You should be able to cut through both plexi and sika to get down to bare metal. I would think this would be less work and expense than rebuilding the entire canopy frame.
BTW, I did forget to latch the canopy once, but thankfully, I had the canopy handle twisted to the closed position. The canopy was being pulled upward, but the handle kept it from being more than a crack.
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A piece of safety wire, poked through the Sika, works great as a saw. That is, of course, if you have enough thickness of the Sika and access to get the wire through. Otherwise grinding the plastic off then sawing/sanding the Sika from the frame would work just fine.
You already know the frame fits the fuselage, why try to make another?
You already know the frame fits the fuselage, why try to make another?
