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Tip Tanks

Webb

Well Known Member
Sponsor
As much discussion as I have read on more fuel, I'm surprised that we don't see tip tanks like you see on certified aircraft. That dawned on me when watching the Aermacchi on our favor spy, 007 last night.

http://www.airpowerinternational.com/marchetti

Personally, I think it's a sexy look but at what cost.

The guy in the hanger next to me has a BE35 with factory tanks that allows 200 lbs more gross. Each of his hold 20 gallons.

I was thinking 10 gallon tanks (20 total) would be just about the right size for an RV. Gee - Think of it as another pro-seal project.

All you engineering guys out there, is this folly or a good ideal?
 
I like mine

I have tip tanks that extend the wing span by 18 inches (17 gallons total added fuel). I remove them and the stock tips for racing. I just reinstalled them for out trip to California Thursday when we get back I have to switch back to racing configuration for the Tennessee Valley event at Courtland, AL (www.sportairrace.org). At the end of July I will be flying without them in the AirVenture Cup race from Dayton to Oshkosh and I am sweating the fuel exhaustion threat at high burn rate and prevailing head winds. Based on my experience I would add fuel capacity within the existing envelope some way. the fuel management system is another concern that you have to deal with. All four of my tanks are individually selectable with no pumps other than the engine driven pump and the standard aux pump. There is also an all fuel off position of the main fuel valve.

Bob Axsom
 
The new style

of Van's wing tips do add speed in the form of less drag..I bet the tanks would cost you that advantage..whatever it is.

Frank
 
of Van's wing tips do add speed in the form of less drag..I bet the tanks would cost you that advantage..whatever it is.

Frank

Test comparisons have showed no measurable speed difference between the old style (horner) and the new style (sheared) tips, which is the reason Van's has never promoted them as providing any speed increase.
 
Tanks & Tips

Farn Reed's tip tanks as I was installing them during the build - stock tips go on the end:

TIPTANK.jpg


Home made racing tips (slicker than GOS):

DVC00001.jpg


Bob Axsom
 
Tanks I don't know - tips weren't hard

The tanks are a beautiful piece of work - I'm sure it would take a lot of thought careful design and quality work. Their performance has been flawless and they give me another 1.6 hours at WOT and 2450 rpm.

The tips required making two molds and a aluminum stiffner/closure in the area of the aileron.

Bob Axsom
 
Any idea of how much extra drag

Your tip tanks create..They certainly have the nice advantage of being built seperate to the (flying) airplane and can be installed without too much effort.

Frank
 
Bob...

Farn Reed's tip tanks as I was installing them during the build - stock tips go on the end:

...

Home made racing tips (slicker than GOS):

...

Bob Axsom

...are those long through bolts that attach to fittings on the main spar and rear spar to take the extra loads?

I presume there are internnal baffles as well.
 
3 kts TAS

Your tip tanks create..They certainly have the nice advantage of being built seperate to the (flying) airplane and can be installed without too much effort.

Frank

When I remove the tip tanks and stock tips and install the racing tips the speed increase in speed at 6,000 ft density altitude (WOT, 2720 RPM, 3 way, NTPS spreadsheet) is 3 kts TAS.

Bob Axsom
 
...are those long through bolts that attach to fittings on the main spar and rear spar to take the extra loads?

I presume there are internnal baffles as well.

There are angles in the wing and threaded rods (5/16" as I recall) that structurally tie the tanks into the wing structure. There are 4 tubes welded into the tank for the three threaded rods and the fourth is a conduit for wiring.

I have seen no baffles in the tank but there may be baffles in there. When I once tookoff with a partially empty tank the engine started to die from fuel starvation at a high angle of attack because the fuel shifted to the rear of the tank. They should not be used for takeoff operations.

Bob Axsom
 
The tanks are a beautiful piece of work - I'm sure it would take a lot of thought careful design and quality work. Their performance has been flawless and they give me another 1.6 hours at WOT and 2450 rpm.

The tips required making two molds and a aluminum stiffner/closure in the area of the aileron.

Bob Axsom

I want 'em. How many gallons? Gorgeous piece of work.
 
Tip Tank Engineering Considerations

Adding fuel capacity has long been of interest to the RV market, and it can be done in many ways. Without getting into details of external or internal tank design, there are several important areas that will be impacted by adding mass to the wing.

1) Structural: IMHO, this is the biggest factor. Adding mass to the wing means that mass must be supported through out the airplane's structural envelope, plus safety factor. For our airplanes, that would be a multiple of 6.0 x 1.5, or nine times the symmetric load factor. <<edit: or placard the airplane to lower maneuvering limits with aux fuel on board. >> By that, we're talking about maneuvers that do not involve roll or yaw accelerations. With mass placed in the wings, these loads will relieve the bending moment on the main wing spar, which is why we like to carry fuel in the wings -vs- the fuselage. Fuel carried further outboard has more moment to oppose aerodynamic wing bending, so tip tanks are a popular idea.

During accelerated rolling and/or yawing maneuvers, (roll rate or yaw rate changes), inertial loads on the fuel mass must be analyzed. Some kind of inertial model of the fuel mass must be developed, and then maximum roll and yaw rates need to be known for worst case scenarios. For our RV's, yawing acceleration (theta-dot) won't be critical but rolling acceleration (phi-dot) will be since we can roll pretty aggressively. Reaction forces to the roll acceleration need to be analyzed, and they can be pretty large especially for tip tanks out there on the long arm of the wing.

2) Aerodynamic / Stability: Unless you're changing the shape of the wing, any internally carried fuel will not appreciably change cruise performance, but climb rate will drop noticeably with added weight. Remember, it takes fuel to carry fuel. A rough rule of thumb is 10% of fuel boarded will be used to carry the rest. Dynamic stability will be affected, especially in rolling and/or yawing maneuvers. Spin recovery will be adversely affected due to the larger rolling and yawing inertia of the airplane with tip tanks. Adding vertical tail area would be one way of countering this. As seen in Farn Reed's tip tank design, adding fixed wing area outboard of the aileron will also reduce roll rate due to increased roll damping.

3) Structural Dynamics: Mass added aft of the wing's quarter chord will reduce its structural flutter margins. I'm not talking about flutter in the ailerons here... I'm talking about fluttering the whole wing. The flutter divergence speed for our short and stiff wings is probably VERY high, and might not be a factor at at any subsonic speed. But, in principle, if you add mass aft in the wing (as my tank suggestion does) the wing must now react more mass moment about its aero center and so torsional flutter issues are magnified. I don't think this would be a factor for us, unless very large mass was added significantly aft of the main spar.

******************************

Putting all the technical jargon aside, I like the idea of more fuel. The benefits generally outweigh the problems of adding tanks to the wing. Taking fuel stops out of your trip is just like adding speed, and lots of it. In some cases, you stock RV flyers could handily out run any of those six-bangers out there from A to B. Think of that...

I offered my own method for doing this a few years back, but nobody seemed interested. The fuel would be carried in the outboard wing bays, making tanks out of the main spar - drag spar - and the outer 2 or 3 ribs. Stiffen the lower skins, and make the wing tips removable for access. After burning off the mains, transfer the fuel into the mains with Facet pumps. (I prefer positive transfer mechanisms, not gravity for this) The tank vents would tee together and vent inside the wing tip. I've already worked up most of the loading and structural analysis to make this happen, but got off doing other projects instead.
 
Last edited:
17

I want 'em. How many gallons? Gorgeous piece of work.

17 gallons added so the total fuel load is 55 gallons. They were made by a man named Farn Reed who lived in Grants Pass, Oregon. I was told here that he died a while back in an airplane accident. I don't think you can get them anymore. Van's may have some information on that.

Bob Axsom
 
Bob..seems your tips are a hot commodity. If it isn't to much trouble for you do think that next time you have the tip tanks off you could take some detailed photos?... Give us an idea of how they bolt on and all that good stuff.
 
Bill is right on the money.
His description of the forces involved are very important and valid considerations that need to be taken into account when designing such modifications.
I have built several sets of leading edge tanks for RV7's and 8's, adding 73LTR per tank. They have been designed to FAR23 standard, while doing the static load testing they were loaded to just over 7.7G's and had no deformation of the tank or structure. The wing structure was calculated to be capable of 10G ultimate, but I would stay with the Vans figures for safety. The one item that was, and is a concern is the landing gear strength. Even without extra fuel onboard they would fail a cert test, but in saying that we are building experimental anyway.
Currently I am building another two sets for my own RV7A and a hanger mates RV. Both RV's are built but not painted. When we designed the tanks we made sure that it was easy to retrofit to already flying RV's. Over the next couple of weeks I will take pictures of the building, fitting of the tanks for those who are interested.

Cheers
Mick Haynes
VH-ZVR


Adding fuel capacity has long been of interest to the RV market, and it can be done in many ways. Without getting into details of external or internal tank design, there are several important areas that will be impacted by adding mass to the wing.

1) Structural: IMHO, this is the biggest factor. Adding mass to the wing means that mass must be supported through out the airplane's structural envelope, plus safety factor. For our airplanes, that would be a multiple of 6.0 x 1.5, or nine times the symmetric load factor. <<edit: or placard the airplane to lower maneuvering limits with aux fuel on board. >> By that, we're talking about maneuvers that do not involve roll or yaw accelerations. With mass placed in the wings, these loads will relieve the bending moment on the main wing spar, which is why we like to carry fuel in the wings -vs- the fuselage. Fuel carried further outboard has more moment to oppose aerodynamic wing bending, so tip tanks are a popular idea.

During accelerated rolling and/or yawing maneuvers, (roll rate or yaw rate changes), inertial loads on the fuel mass must be analyzed. Some kind of inertial model of the fuel mass must be developed, and then maximum roll and yaw rates need to be known for worst case scenarios. For our RV's, yawing acceleration (theta-dot) won't be critical but rolling acceleration (phi-dot) will be since we can roll pretty aggressively. Reaction forces to the roll acceleration need to be analyzed, and they can be pretty large especially for tip tanks out there on the long arm of the wing.

2) Aerodynamic / Stability: Unless you're changing the shape of the wing, any internally carried fuel will not appreciably change cruise performance, but climb rate will drop noticeably with added weight. Remember, it takes fuel to carry fuel. A rough rule of thumb is 10% of fuel boarded will be used to carry the rest. Dynamic stability will be affected, especially in rolling and/or yawing maneuvers. Spin recovery will be adversely affected due to the larger rolling and yawing inertia of the airplane with tip tanks. Adding vertical tail area would be one way of countering this. As seen in Farn Reed's tip tank design, adding fixed wing area outboard of the aileron will also reduce roll rate due to increased roll damping.

3) Structural Dynamics: Mass added aft of the wing's quarter chord will reduce its structural flutter margins. I'm not talking about flutter in the ailerons here... I'm talking about fluttering the whole wing. The flutter divergence speed for our short and stiff wings is probably VERY high, and might not be a factor at at any subsonic speed. But, in principle, if you add mass aft in the wing (as my tank suggestion does) the wing must now react more mass moment about its aero center and so torsional flutter issues are magnified. I don't think this would be a factor for us, unless very large mass was added significantly aft of the main spar.

******************************

Putting all the technical jargon aside, I like the idea of more fuel. The benefits generally outweigh the problems of adding tanks to the wing. Taking fuel stops out of your trip is just like adding speed, and lots of it. In some cases, you stock RV flyers could handily out run any of those six-bangers out there from A to B. Think of that...

I offered my own method for doing this a few years back, but nobody seemed interested. The fuel would be carried in the outboard wing bays, making tanks out of the main spar - drag spar - and the outer 2 or 3 ribs. Stiffen the lower skins, and make the wing tips removable for access. After burning off the mains, transfer the fuel into the mains with Facet pumps. (I prefer positive transfer mechanisms, not gravity for this) The tank vents would tee together and vent inside the wing tip. I've already worked up most of the loading and structural analysis to make this happen, but got off doing other projects instead.
 
Webb,

I'm not flying yet, but you can drop in at Slobovia & see some leading edge aux tanks if you'd like. 3 bays (IIRC) in the outer leading edge with open bay between the stock tank & aux & another open bay at the tip. ~13 gal/side. Plumbing to come to the cabin & feed an additional L/R valve which will feed the extra port in the stock valve. My goal is to leave the stock system as stock as possible.

Charlie
-7 finish kit
Slobovia Outernational (MS71)
 
There are baffles

...are those long through bolts that attach to fittings on the main spar and rear spar to take the extra loads?

I presume there are internnal baffles as well.

I'm going throught the conversion back to the racing configuration so I looked in the tanks today. There is a baffle about 20" from the leading edge. There are two ports in the baffle at the bottom inboard and outboard ends. I estimate each port area to be a little over a half inch.

Bob Axsom
 
Farn Reed's tip tanks as I was installing them during the build - stock tips go on the end:



Home made racing tips (slicker than GOS):



Bob Axsom

a quick aside- is that Greased Owl "Scat"?

hey, do your racing tips have no position lights? how does that work- you have normal tips with position lights you fly to a race start, then put on the race tips, or do you only fly daytime with the race tips?
 
a quick aside- is that Greased Owl "Scat"?

hey, do your racing tips have no position lights? how does that work- you have normal tips with position lights you fly to a race start, then put on the race tips, or do you only fly daytime with the race tips?

Answer to the first question: very close.

Answer to the second question: The racing tips have no lights and I can only fly with them in the day time. I spent all afternoon doing the wing conversion from long range cruise configuration (with landing, nav and strobe lights) to the no tip tank 3" racing tip configuration. I still have one tank to remove and one racing tip to install. It is straight forward but not quick.

Bob Axsom
 
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