RV-12 Entry / Exit / Cockpit Room

I visited Van?s last week for a quick tour. The RV-12 was sitting in the hangar. I asked if it was ok to sit in it to see how I fit. I am 6-2 and 250 lbs (I know-I?m working on building a lighter RV-9A by becoming a lighter pilot . I was also interested in ease of entry. I must say that it is easier to get into and out of than any of the other side by side tip-up or slider RV. You also do not have to step in the seat to enter or exit. Once seated, it had adequate room. It felt comparable or close to it for a -7 or -9. I did not close the canopy, but was assured that there is lots of head room.

Alan Jackson
RV-9A Tip Up ? Finish kit in work
N316RV

Thanks Alan.

Was there any word about the factory version of the -12, and when it would be ready to fly? Still anxious to hear that news...

Cockpit room

I got to fly the 12 last week with Van in the right seat. Entry was easy and it is not necessary to walk on the seat. Just step up on the entry step and swing a leg over the rail and on to the floor. Van said that you can step on the leading edge of the wing if you want to, but I did not need to. The cockpit is very roomy; much more so than my 6A or my 7A. I could barely reach to push the throttle all the way in. Head room was incredible. I could have added four inches of cushion and still had lots of room for a headset. Visibility is better than any airplane I have ever flown. I actually liked the nose wheel steering and hand brake, but th kit will have toe brakes and a castering nose wheel like the other RV's. The plane flies like a dream. Roll is just a tiny bit slower than a 6 or 7. The elevator does not feel quite as quick, but I think that that is because of the lower wing loading. I did some manuvering and stalls. The stall is a non event. The controls just get a bit mushy and the nose drops a bit. If you hold the stick full back, when the nose drops the right wing droops a bit, but will come right back up with a relaxation of the back pressure. I was able to slow fly at one or two knots above a stall and the plane was easy to control. On my first approach, I landed about 30 feet in the air, followed by another landing about 10 feet in the air, followed by a final landing that dropped in from about five feet. (The plane feels like your but is going to scrape the ground before in lands.) The plane did not bounce. It just stuck to the runway. It is a pussycat to land. I did better on my second landing. After I was on the ground with a little back pressure on the stick, Van pulled the plane back in the air about 10 feet and then flew it to another landing without touching the throttle. On my last landing, I flew slower on final and finally got the picture. When we were taxiing in, Van said that he really liked the plane and that he wanted one. I told him that he would have to wait until I got mine, because I have kit number one reserved. He smiled because he already knew that. Van said that they hope to start shipping kits by the end of the year.

Jim Cone
3-peat offender
2 6A's and a 7A

That just about does it...

ARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!

The anxiety of anticipation is killing me. I'm ready to get started.

I know they are still hashing out the details, but did they let on as to how they are going to sell it? Are they going with the "plane-in-a-box" packaging or will they also offer it up a "pay-as-you-go" kit (like all the other RVs)?

Looks like I need to hurry up and finish this basement project (wife says I can only have 1 project in progress at a time ).

Thanks for the PIREPs guys.

I agree...the suspense it too much!

I'll be anxious to hear when the final "kit" version flies...I'm hoping that once it does, testing will commence and kits will be ready soon. By the end of the year is fine with me, and I'm also hoping on the kits to be a little divided up...maybe wing + tail = first kit??

RV12

Thanks for the report jim! What did you think of the rotax engine? With all of your RV experience did you find it sporty to fly or more like a trainer?

Bill in NC

Rv-12 progress

Van told me that they have all of the parts made and are working on structural testing. They are working on the plans and the instruction manual so that when they do finally fly the plane made from the actual kit parts, they will be ready to start selling kits when the plane meets the standards for light sport plane. I get the impression from conversations, that the kit will include virtually everything except paint. No word about how they plan to break up the kit. They do expect that the plane will go together so fast that there will not be a need to offer the usual tail kit, wing kit, fuselage kit, etc. I would guess that they will offer a structural kit, an avionics and interior kit, and an engine/fire wall forward kit. Something that Van said lead me to believe that the kit will include a Dynon 180 EFIS/EMS. I had hoped to get a peek into the prototype shop, but after a long pause when I asked to see it, Van said no. They have to be very close to completion of the kit plane.

BillFear said:

Thanks for the report jim! What did you think of the rotax engine? With all of your RV experience did you find it sporty to fly or more like a trainer?

Bill in NC

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The Rotax started instantly! It was very quiet and smooth. I like it. The plane flies like an RV, not a trainer. I love it.

jamescone said:

Van I get the impression from conversations, that the kit will include virtually everything except paint. No word about how they plan to break up the kit. They do expect that the plane will go together so fast that there will not be a need to offer the usual tail kit, wing kit, fuselage kit, etc. I would guess that they will offer a structural kit, an avionics and interior kit, and an engine/fire wall forward kit. Something that Van said lead me to believe that the kit will include a Dynon 180 EFIS/EMS.

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I can only imagine how fast the kit will fly together if they include such things as wiring harnesses for the Dynon, all engine components, etc. I do hope there's a little room for some basic customization...I want to make sure I have a NAV with LOC/GS capability, and even more important, some lights on the plane. Otherwise I'll be very happy leaving everything well enough alone.

It sure will be great to get some updates from Vans, but thank you James for the update...it certainly helps!

Good to hear from Jim Cone

Jim,
It's good to hear from you. I remember you from way back. I, for one, am looking forward to seeing you in the air in RV-12 kit number 1!
Thanks for the report,
Don

I hope they re-examine the pricing model...

jamescone said:

*snip* I get the impression from conversations, that the kit will include virtually everything except paint. No word about how they plan to break up the kit. They do expect that the plane will go together so fast that there will not be a need to offer the usual tail kit, wing kit, fuselage kit, etc.

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I don't think its a matter of speed of construction that should dictate the offering of the kit in the traditional manner. Looking the sonex kit offering model, the expectation is one will have to come up with ~$15k+ just to get started. For those of us who will be using the pay-as-you-go financing plan, that's a bit unsavory.

You will have a shop full of parts that are not on the current production schedule (requries addtional storage, there is also risk of damage). Also, arguements of construction speed is assumed that one will be able to work everyday (or on a regular interval) and in a defined capacity. Well, we all know that "life comes at you fast" and sometimes precludes one from building for days, weeks, months and sometimes years.

That's a lot of cash that could have been redeployed in appreiciative instruments. Even if build time is expected to be inside a year, I would much rather pay $4k every quarter (or when im ready for the next kit) as opposed to chunking out 16 grand all at once. In business, they call this Just-In-Time manufacturing.

IMHO, the "plane in a box" pricing model kinda runs counter to the whole notion of having an airplane the the average joe can buy and build inexpensively (and possibly pay for it out of your pocket).

I hope they offer it both ways, complete kit pricing and subkit pricing (I think Zenith aircraft does it this way)

Either way, after Jim's glowing report (Thanks Jim!), it looks like I will be building one. I would just like to keep it peaceful and quiet at home (I cant spend all the wifey's fun money all at once)

PIREP RV-12

Thanks for the pirep & associated info - I am hoping that Van will allow us a little more leeway in choice of panel equipment (if allowed by the rules). Maybe something like two Dynons, a 210 and a 296, etc. Flamers need not reply.

The RV-12 is really looking good!!!!!

Shipping costs

SweetJellyDonut said:

.....
That's a lot of cash that could have been redeployed in appreiciative instruments. Even if build time is expected to be inside a year, I would much rather pay $4k every quarter (or when im ready for the next kit) as opposed to chunking out 16 grand all at once. In business, they call this Just-In-Time manufacturing.
......

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Maybe Just In Time, but if each kit costs $300 to $500 to ship.... the shipping savings may beat out the interest in your credit union...

Truck shipping does not seem to be linear with weight...

gil A

jamescone said:

The Rotax started instantly! It was very quiet and smooth. I like it. The plane flies like an RV, not a trainer. I love it.

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Bill,

I would like to add ...

One of our chapter members has a Europa with the same engine and it is a good engine. John reports that he changes his oil at the recommended interval (50 hours, I think) and just like his truck, he doesn't add any oil between oil changes.

I sure wish I could say that about a Lycoming.

Having flown in his Europa, it gets up and moves. How much of that is the airframe and how much is the engine, I couldn't really tell you. My impression was that the engine is very smooth and quiet. I would have no issues owning one.

Even though the heads are liquid cool, the engine is designed to run long enough w/o water to get you home.

I don't think its a matter of speed of construction that should dictate the offering of the kit in the traditional manner.

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Like other folks, I am watching the incubation of the RV-12 with great interest. We need to keep in mind that the -12 airframe can be assembled so quickly it will be breathtaking. The traditional time frame for RV construction are not going to apply to the -12.

I heard third-hand (so somebody with more accurate info feel free to correct me) that one of the Vans employees riveted together most of a -12 fuse in a ..........weekend! When you consider that the prepunched holes are finished size, no dimpling is required, and most of us won't bother with priming the inside of the plane (I think that "requirement" is losing traction compared to several years ago) there is no reason why you can't take the parts out of the crate, insert a few clecoes, fire up the pneumatic rivet puller, and create an airframe in an amazingly short time. Of course the pace will slow once it is time to install firewall forward and the avionics. But the total build time should be far less than for the current crop of RVs.

What is the point of having sub-kits when a sub-section can be assembled in a few dozen hours? I understand the point of those who want to "pay as you go", but I think it is going to be necessary to come to grips with buying the entire kit in one whack instead of paying multiple shipping fees.

This is going to be fun to watch and I suspect Vans is going to have a very popular plane even with pilots who have no problematic medical issues.

Sam Buchanan said:

This is going to be fun to watch and I suspect Vans is going to have a very popular plane with pilots who have no medical issues.

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I agree, and would add that it will probably remain popular for pilots who still have a medical and simply want a cheaper, fun to fly airplane!!

Time to rethink...

Sam Buchanan said:

*snip* I heard third-hand (so somebody with more accurate info feel free to correct me) that one of the Vans employees riveted together most of a -12 fuse in a ..........weekend!

*snip*
What is the point of having sub-kits when a sub-section can be assembled in a few dozen hours? I understand the point of those who want to "pay as you go", but I think it is going to be necessary to come to grips with buying the entire kit in one whack instead of paying multiple shipping fees.

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A weekend!!??? WOW! If that pans out to be what is the expected average, then I happily stand corrected!

If one can expect to have the kit to the point where it will be sitting up on its own gear inside of a month, then yes, it does make sense to purchase the airframe kit complete. I would agree, however, with the other comment(s) made about seprarating out the avionics/electrical and FWF kits.

I guess the wife will just have do without fun money for a while.

This has the potential to really spur the personal aircraft movement, to borrow/modify a phrase from the movies: "We will darken the skies with our RV-12s!"

SweetJellyDonut said:

This has the potential to really spur the personal aircraft movement, to borrow/modify a phrase from the movies: "We will darken the skies with our RV-12s!"

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I agree. Can you imagine how many -12 kits will be sold if you can have the basic structure build in an easy two or three months, and they go ahead and make the Dynon standard (all hookups already figured out/wiring harness done, etc.)

I can see Van selling millions of them if you can really build them that fast, with the price (hopefully) in the $40K range. I know I want one!

SweetJellyDonut said:

A weekend!!??? WOW! If that pans out to be what is the expected average, then I happily stand corrected!

If one can expect to have the kit to the point where it will be sitting up on its own gear inside of a month, then yes, it does make sense to purchase the airframe kit complete.

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I'm not surprised - there already exist datapoints for "complete kit, including engine" pulled-rivet metal plane kits that would be comparable to the RV-12 in terms of pre-punched and pre-bent parts and complexity. For example, the Savannah, a Zenith 701 knockoff, has actual build times reported under 400 hours (and a couple builders say that, excluding painting, they believe they could build a second plane in under 250 hours - a demo unit was allegedly completed in under 224 hours):
http://www.skykits.com/
Since a complete kit, with engine and basic VFR instruments, is just under US$47,000, that seems to suggests a complete RV-12 kit could in theory be sold for around US$50,000 (+/-$3000) range, depending on instruments.
All in my humble opinion, of course.

If your time is valuable to you but you still like the advantages one gets from building one's own homebuilt, the short build time may more than compensate for the price.

I am curious to see if the RV-12 will have the same W&B limitations of, say, the CH-601 (i.e. don't stash your toothbrush too far aft in the luggage compartment ).

Didn't the Zenair factory build a 601XL at OSH at couple of times? Did it during the show...

If the parts are formed and particularly if they're drilled and deburred, assembly should be quick. Fewer rivets to drill out and replace.

TODR