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  #21  
Old 05-23-2019, 07:38 AM
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Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
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Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
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In some cases you have to decide where you set the bar for safety. In others, the bar has been set for you, by the regulations.

There are lots of videos of aerobatics with children without parachutes. Keep in mind that not all countries require parachutes for occupants during aerobatics. Want to take your daughter up legally? Move to Canada. I'd say just come visit, but I expect the US regs would still apply to your US-registered aircraft while you were here.
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  #22  
Old 05-23-2019, 07:41 AM
TimO TimO is offline
 
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Thanks for posting those links! I'd watched that first one over and over during the past couple years, because that laugh is addicting. It's nice to see that Dad has her into another airplane, and is all equipped now and she's still loving it.

My guess for the OP is that you can find a parachute maker that will have or will make one that's small enough for some pretty small body frames, and from a chute perspective you can get what you need. From an ability standpoint, I always found that kids can be taught to do most anything with some practice, so make a game of it and run some drills and get them comfortable with the whole concept. Flying in a side-by-side has its advantages when flying with young ones. Will the end result be that you can guarantee that a real bailout will go smoothly? No. But you can certainly push the odds towards the favorable side, and keep legal at the same time. I don't kid myself. I have 2 chutes and brief everyone who rides along for aerobatics on how to use them, but I can bet that there aren't many people, including myself, who are guaranteed to not only have what it takes to pull off a bailout mentally, but become skilled at it as well. We buy the chutes and wear them as a last line of defense, but for most of us it's still a crapshoot that we hope we never have to be tested on. My 2 cents on it is, practice solo, become proficient, wear chutes for legal reasons, but always keep plenty of altitude, especially with passengers, and be good at saving the plane. You're much more likely to be required to use your skills to recover from a botched maneuver than you are to bail out. I doubt that there is anyone on the list that will try to claim that bailing out is a simple option, in any circumstance. But, don't ignore that as an option, and always include it in your briefings.

I bought 2 chutes early on, and bought them big enough for myself to use, i.e. not the smaller chute size but the larger. I find that they fit fine for my daughter who's literally 140 lbs lighter than me. So if you buy the smaller chute model, and have it made for a very small person, you may end up happy with how it fits. Not only that, if you get a seat bottom type, they may be able to use it as a booster seat too.
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  #23  
Old 05-23-2019, 04:05 PM
RhinoDrvr RhinoDrvr is offline
 
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Location: Lemoore (Fresno), CA
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No suggestions on the parachute rig for a child, but I'll just say this;

I've never departed an airplane (from controlled flight) doing an aileron roll...but I have unintentionally departed airplanes doing loops or over the top maneuvers.

Might factor that into your parachute thoughts...
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  #24  
Old 05-23-2019, 06:13 PM
HAMFLYER HAMFLYER is offline
 
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COLD COLD CHILLS WENT UP MY WHOLE BODY WHEN I READ YOUR STATEMENT HERE.
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  #25  
Old 05-23-2019, 07:00 PM
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Gash Gash is offline
 
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Default It can be done

As some of you know, I fly a lot of aerobatics. My kids have also been doing acro with me for years, and it has been a very positive experience for them. My youngest son was 8-years old when he started flying aerobatics with me, and now he's talking about flying in aerobatic contests after he gets his PPL. We have "standard operating procedures" and full-up emergency procedures training for the children. I am not casual about any of our flying, especially aerobatics. When a child is ready to be signed off as an acro pax, then we go fly.

My humble opinion is that many here are over-thinking the subject. If your passenger a) fits properly in the parachute harness, b) is fully trained on how to use it, and c) can egress the airplane, then go fly. Get a smaller parachute for lightweight individuals with a crossover aerobatic harness. Tighten the straps all the way to the stops, and if it's too loose, then the passenger is too small to fly, period. This isn't rocket science folks. Feed the kid steak and potatoes until he/she fits the chute harness.

I should add d) the most important thing: first look in the mirror. Are you trained and proficient? Can you responsibly carry a passenger in aerobatic flight without causing unnecessary risk? The standard of excellence is much higher when carrying a young passenger.

Finally, there's aerobatics, and then there's passenger aerobatics. Loops should not be round, but rather cursive "L" shaped. Slow rolls should be docile and fun. G loads should be as low as possible. And the flight should be short. The idea is to have a positive experience where the passenger is still smiling in the base turn.
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  #26  
Old 05-29-2019, 01:15 PM
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Mycool Mycool is offline
 
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WTF is everyone talking about in here....

91.303 Aerobatic flight.
No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight -
(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;
(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;
(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;
(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;
(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or
(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.
For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.
[Doc. No. 18834, 54 FR 34308, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-227, 56 FR 65661, Dec. 17, 1991]

"Understanding and working within the LAW is way more fun than blindly following it."

Stay legal my friends.
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Last edited by Mycool : 05-29-2019 at 01:36 PM. Reason: correction
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  #27  
Old 05-29-2019, 01:54 PM
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Gash Gash is offline
 
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Mycool, sir, was there a question or statement in your post?

I can’t speak for the other contributors to this thread. But in my case, I fly in a waivered aerobatic box from surface to 5,000 AGL. When someone pastes FARs, I sense his presumption that a rule is being broken. In this case, nothing could be farther from true. Have a nice day and carry on. Respectfully (from a guy who may have flown CAS for you) — Gash
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Last edited by Gash : 05-29-2019 at 02:04 PM.
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  #28  
Old 05-29-2019, 05:48 PM
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Mycool Mycool is offline
 
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Default Correction

Under FAR 91.303 parachutes are not required for aerobatics.
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  #29  
Old 05-29-2019, 06:20 PM
DirectTo DirectTo is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mycool View Post
Under FAR 91.303 parachutes are not required for aerobatics.
Skip forward a couple to .307 you’ll find it:

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds--
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

Last edited by DirectTo : 05-29-2019 at 07:03 PM. Reason: Grammar.
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  #30  
Old 05-29-2019, 06:40 PM
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Mycool Mycool is offline
 
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Default Uhhh

Thanks, I missed that the original post was for a “passenger.”
As Gash puts it “Aeorbatics” and then “Passenger Aerobatics”.

BTW Gash, what do you mean you’ve “flown CAS for me?
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Last edited by Mycool : 05-29-2019 at 06:55 PM. Reason: Correction
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