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Old 11-30-2017, 06:13 AM
grubbat's Avatar
grubbat grubbat is offline
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Ga
Posts: 561
Default Too real

That young lady sounded like my daughter. She was following all those crazy instructions and changes and repeating everything just like she was taught. I could almost feel myself get flustered and when she was too high I almost knew it before it happened as if it was inevitable. I am convinced that she did a better job following their commandments including "keep it tight" better than me. The video at the end left me speechless.

I wanted to post something that was noteworthy and valued added after watching the video but I confess that everything I came up with was full of emotion and emptines. So, I called my daughter and told her that it was her responsibility and only her responsibility to safely operate that machine and the controllers are there only to assist .......... and never be afraid to tell them "unable", no matter how unconvenient the situation is for everyone.

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Old 11-30-2017, 07:58 AM
moosepileit moosepileit is offline
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Floyds Knobs, IN
Posts: 285

Unless you are comfortable with the winds, length and even the taxiing once on the ground, unable, divert or insist on a pattern position that will allow a normal final approach on/about 300'/nm.

The problem in busy airspace is tower and approach have conflicting priorities if any aircraft are in a visual pattern. They in practice own conflicting chunks of the airspace the plane in the pattern needs.

You can ask tower to tell you what piece of sky they can delay you in while the ask the approach controllers to build you a suitable gap. This may take 20 minutes at a busy field with aircraft that have been flowed in and speed controlled for their last 200 plus miles already.

There is an old adage that after 2 tries, it is a good time to divert and reset your normal habit patterns and flow.
RV-6 N91GG, bought from builder.
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Old 12-16-2017, 07:10 PM's Avatar is offline
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 102
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Originally Posted by Ralph Inkster View Post
Our field is controlled and has a lot of training traffic mixed in with everything up to private jet traffic. I think the controllers actually appreciate the RV traffic here because they are very capable following slow, or expedite, what ever is needed to make the circuit traffic work.
Sometimes I think they use us to break the bordom too. A couple times on slow days, unprompted, I have received "XXXX CLEARED FOR APPROACH EXERCISE, TURN CROSSWIND MID FIELD", OK, ah, advance the throttle, continue approach with an overshoot 2G pull up in front of the tower, rather aggressive climb, roll to crosswind (because have to keep it midfield). I don't even consider the extra fuel burnt when following instructions. Once on calling in on Downwind after this, the controller asked if I needed to repeat the exercise.
That's awesome!
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Old 12-17-2017, 07:20 AM
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rzbill rzbill is offline
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 2,536

Originally Posted by snopercod View Post
I think that's the key, and that's what ATC recommended when I spoke to them after another "situation". My airport is in a shallow valley with 6,000' mountains about 5 miles on either side. I have approached the airport several time when they give me a vector "for sequencing" to parallel the runway, only 7 miles abeam. This last time, I had flown for 3.6 hours and was tired and just wanted to get home. I had made a nice, smooth descent from 11,500' down to 4,000' in preparation for landing when they gave me one of those vectors directly into the tall mountains. So I had to climb back up to 6,000' to clear the peaks (by 500'), and got the **** beat out of me by the moderate turbulence up there. If my engine had quit, I would have been screwed, and it all seemed so unnecessary.
Just reread this whole thread.
Same type of thing happens to me at AVL. On a few occations I have told them unable immediately but can comply when closer to field (past the mountains and into the flat valley).

The tower trainees get overwhelmed every once in a while and can turn your short $100 hamburger hop into a legal cross county On the whole, the controllers a good folks. I think I have met all of them and have a friendly conversational relationship with most.
(Repeated crack of dawn Monday flights will do that)

Since the thread was about pattern speed.....

I was commuting home one Friday. Listening to AVL approach before calling in and I hear what I think are a couple of IFR training flights in abysmally slow trainers outbound to the IAFs. So I make contact at about 20 miles (radio xmit limit due to terrain). RV is at warp 7 in high speed cruise decent with the intent of trying to get to the field before the trainees are cleared.
At about 4 miles while approaching a perfect base, they say "turn to 90 deg right for spacing". My response was "GAH!" They immediately came back and said if I keep it a 1/2 mile final I was cleared to land. Did it.

While this turned out in my favor, I well know that it was unprofessional on my part and I'm not proud of it. I was not intending to imply "unable". It was a knee jerk due to losing my gambit. The work with AVL ATC has been two way and a good relationship. I always try to stay alert and sometimes offer actions early (to benefit both) that they frequently accept and thank me for afterwards.
Bill Pendergrass
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Last edited by rzbill : 12-17-2017 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 12-29-2017, 01:04 PM
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flightlogic flightlogic is offline
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 1,479
Default serious stuff

One of my students ended up in the side of an apartment building in New York City. You may have read about him, since he had a New York Yankee with him. Theory is, they tried to keep a controller happy. It cost them... and surviving wives and children dearly.
"Kindness is never a bad plan."

Work bio: Avionics tech support; ATP rated in planes.Helicopter rated, balloon instructor, seaplanes and for grins, Phantom Drone pilot. Instructor for air medical and law enforcement tactical radio systems. Fly my RV9A to work every week. Janitor when and as needed.
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Old 12-29-2017, 03:35 PM
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RV8JD RV8JD is offline
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 884

Originally Posted by flightlogic View Post
One of my students ended up in the side of an apartment building in New York City. You may have read about him, since he had a New York Yankee with him. Theory is, they tried to keep a controller happy. It cost them... and surviving wives and children dearly.
I'm very sorry your "student", who was a CFI, lost his life, along with another person on that flight. But saying that "Theory is, they tried to keep a controller happy. It cost them... and surviving wives and children dearly." is patently false and inflammatory.

From the NTSB report:
"The pilots should have recognized, during preflight planning or while they were considering flying up the East River after they were already in flight, that there was limited turning space in the East River exclusion area and that they would need to maximize the lateral distance available for turning. Alternatively, the pilots could have chosen to contact ATC and request clearance to transit through the class B airspace instead of turning around in the East River exclusion area. According to FAA ATC, such clearances are relatively common."
Not trying to be argumentative here, but speculation and inflammatory statements helps no one.
Carl N.
Arlington, WA (KAWO)
RV-8, 400 Tach Hours
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- Out with the Old, In with the New
RV-8, 1938 Tach Hours (Pic 1),(Pic 2) - Sold

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Last edited by RV8JD : 12-29-2017 at 03:37 PM.
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