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RV7A UL POWER PROJECT - 200HP 520iS FWF UPFIT WITH PICS

taverroi

Well Known Member
OTHER PICTURES AT POST #43, #47, #53, #54, #57 and #62

Ok Gents,

As promised here it is. Pics of my 200hp UL Power Plant Upfit on my RV7A.

All work is being completed by Ray Lawrence out of Sanderville Ga. Please contact him direcly with and questions about the power plant itself and prop itself..Im just the money man..he is the brains behind the install. A good friend and an incomprable AC Mechanic and Builder.

His Contact: 478-232-9560

We encourage all comments, encouragements, and questions.

Ray will be giving the answers most of the time. I will be updateing with pics as the project advances. FWF first then the all new panel.

The plane will be at Sun N Fun in Paradise City if you want to see it first hand. The FWF with Cowl complete and painted is our goal for the show but that is ambitious at best. Ray will be in attendance.

First pic starts at the pick up of the project, then with the Egg still installed and its removal, clean FW, eng mount, engine install pics, and finally muffler install on one side and brand new upgraded gear leg and fork with Anti Splat installed. Finally the cowl off to the side that will cover it all.

Enjoy, and fire away!

Tango (I'm Stoked!)

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Right On! can't tell from the pics, but is the rear of the engine offset to account for P factor? how far forward did the prop end up? I looked at this set up for my 7a before going Lyc. Looks good!
 
wow

Good on you!
Looks nice.
Thanks for documenting this!
Looks like a James Cowling too....
looking forward to updates.
 
Nose wheel stop bracket

Your nose wheel stop bracket is installed incorrectly. This is what most likely cause the nose wheel collapse on the aircraft in another post that just showed up a day ago. Please look at the SB that explains this and then get it installed correctly. Looks good other than that!
http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/sb14-12-22.pdf
 
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Right On! can't tell from the pics, but is the rear of the engine offset to account for P factor? how far forward did the prop end up? I looked at this set up for my 7a before going Lyc. Looks good!

This install has the EXACT same offset as Van's Design.

Prop forward dimention is 11 inches.
 
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Good on you!
Looks nice.
Thanks for documenting this!
Looks like a James Cowling too....
looking forward to updates.

NO, not a James Cowl. This Cowl is specifically designed, prototyped and made for this specific installation option with this engine on an RV7A
 
Your nose wheel stop bracket is installed incorrectly. This is what most likely cause the nose wheel collapse on the aircraft in another post that just showed up a day ago. Please look at the SB that explains this and then get it installed correctly. Looks good other than that!
http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/sb14-12-22.pdf


Good eyes man!

But the stop bracket is already broken and is only being used temporarily for set up to allow for the engine installation. It will be replace with new and of corse installed correctly at that time.
 
Eggenfellner Subaru for sale

By the way if anybody out there wants to buy the Eggenfeller Engine or the cowling for it that came with the plane let me know.. it is for sale..Pick up at Sanderville GA ONLY.
 
Looks pretty cool.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of performance did you get out of the Subaru, and with what prop? (max speed, RPM, fuel flow; cruise speed, RPM, fuel flow)

What performance do you expect with the UL? and again, what prop?

Thanks,
 
Looks pretty cool.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of performance did you get out of the Subaru, and with what prop? (max speed, RPM, fuel flow; cruise speed, RPM, fuel flow)

What performance do you expect with the UL? and again, what prop?

Thanks,

I have no idea about Eggenfellner Engine, I havent flown this plane. It was baught with the engine installed and the prop already removed and sold by the previous owner.

As to the performance of the UL.

It is and will be the equivalent to the 180/200hp Lycoming. With the exception of it being 50lbs lighter, smother running, and a quieter operation engine.

Btw it is a 6 cylinder that is specifically designed to burn Mogas! Has dual electronic Ignitions and is FADEC controlled.
 
As to the performance of the UL.

It is and will be the equivalent to the 180/200hp Lycoming. With the exception of it being 50lbs lighter, smother running, and a quieter operation engine.

The 520is is rated at 3300 RPM, so propeller efficiency will be a large factor in any comparison. Other wild cards are cooling drag work, fineness ratio, and that 50 pounds. Should be an interesting comparison.

For sure it's smoother than any flat 4. Feels like an O-300 Continental, very pleasant vibes.
 
The 520is is rated at 3300 RPM,

Been waiting for someone to point that out............

So, is the plan to put a prop on it that will let it wind up to 3300, or something that keeps it down in the 2700 range like we are used to??

If the later, what HP sacrifice is expected?

It doesnt appear that they are set up for a hydraulic constant speed prop. Electric C/S maybe?
 
3300 rpm! wow!

Even a 68" prop at takeoff 3300 rpm has a tip mach no. of 0.89!

by comparison, a 72" prop at 2700 rpm has a tip mach no. of 0.77.

This is going to be one very noisy take-off configuration, and prop efficiency will likely be degraded by the shock losses, as well as the smaller diameter. So takeoff and initial climb performance are not going to be like a 200 hp Lycoming.

If you were to put a 72" prop on it and limit the RPM to 2700, it would be 165 hp (assuming a flat torque curve).
 
They list several prop manufacturers on the UL page that it says have developed props for the UL engine, one of which is Whirlwind. Without knowing the specifics, I would have to give the benefit of the doubt to the prop manufacturer to design it with proper length to avoid high Mach losses on the tips and handle the 3300 rpm.
 
From the operating manual...

Maximum (for 5 minutes) : 200 hp @ 3300 Rpm
Maximum continuous power : 180 hp @ 2800 Rpm


...so if you think of it as a 180, and prop it as such, you should be close.

The charts show max torque centered on 2800 RPM.
 
Subaru performance

Looks pretty cool.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of performance did you get out of the Subaru, and with what prop? (max speed, RPM, fuel flow; cruise speed, RPM, fuel flow)

What performance do you expect with the UL? and again, what prop?

Thanks,



Looking good! Whats this FWF package going for?

I almost bought this airplane, for those interested in the subaru performance heres a link to a kitplanes article on this airplane.

https://subenews.deej.net/wiki/images/9/9f/Kitplanes0509.pdf
 
3300 rpm! wow!

Even a 68" prop at takeoff 3300 rpm has a tip mach no. of 0.89!

by comparison, a 72" prop at 2700 rpm has a tip mach no. of 0.77.

This is going to be one very noisy take-off configuration, and prop efficiency will likely be degraded by the shock losses, as well as the smaller diameter. So takeoff and initial climb performance are not going to be like a 200 hp Lycoming.

If you were to put a 72" prop on it and limit the RPM to 2700, it would be 165 hp (assuming a flat torque curve).

At what temp? that .89 Mach # could swing both directions in a big way........
 
Looking good! Whats this FWF package going for?

I almost bought this airplane, for those interested in the subaru performance heres a link to a kitplanes article on this airplane.

https://subenews.deej.net/wiki/images/9/9f/Kitplanes0509.pdf


Ray Lawrence 478-232-9560 (the project AC Mech/builder and Engine dealer) will have to address the cost of the FWF package. He will be chiming in here on these postings soon. Its cost effective and way worth it!!

As for the Kit Planes Article on the plane...that was a great read. It is a beautiful build, in every way for sure!. I think I'm lucky to have gotton my hands on it. When Ray did my prebuy on it he called me right away and said "Cut this man a check!" And with this new FWF set up and ALL NEW panel to come its going to be to die for!!! (not literally!!..for the record :)
 
Is there any plans to do a spin test program????

Extending the cowl and adding side area that far fwd of the C.G. (not to mention the possibly different moment of inertia from the further fwd engine) can have a noticeable effect on spin recovery properties.........
 
At what temp? that .89 Mach # could swing both directions in a big way........

Well, it really doesn't change very much. I just used SSD c=1100 ft/s.

If it was 100F, then c = sqrt((460+100)* 1.4 * 1716.5) = 1160.
The rotational tip speed was 979 ft/s, so the tip Mach no would be 0.84.
 
From the operating manual...

Maximum (for 5 minutes) : 200 hp @ 3300 Rpm
Maximum continuous power : 180 hp @ 2800 Rpm


...so if you think of it as a 180, and prop it as such, you should be close.

The charts show max torque centered on 2800 RPM.

Thats a good way to look at it. nice package. 50 lbs lighter, smooth running.

I haven't done the math, does a 50-lb lighter engine extended forward 11 inches balance correctly? The engine has a long nose on it, so the c.g. of the engine is probably not a full 11 inches farther forward.

From the pictures, it looks like the intake tubes are on the top (cross-flow head). But I don't see where the intake plenum and throttle body are. Is it on the back?
 
What effects could one expect during operation from moving the power plant seven (7) inches forward and the prop eleven (11) inches forward?

Will it be more or less effected by loading weight in the rear baggage area?

How will it effect pitch, roll and yaw?

Can it be expected to be more of less stable?
 
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Thats a good way to look at it. nice package. 50 lbs lighter, smooth running.

I haven't done the math, does a 50-lb lighter engine extended forward 11 inches balance correctly? The engine has a long nose on it, so the c.g. of the engine is probably not a full 11 inches farther forward.

From the pictures, it looks like the intake tubes are on the top (cross-flow head). But I don't see where the intake plenum and throttle body are. Is it on the back?

Guys,

The engine is actually only mounted 7" further forward and the CG has been engineered to remain exactly in the same location as if a Lycoming had been installed. A lot of work has gone into making this done right the first time.
The same set up has been flying on a Glasair Sportsman for over 400 hrs.
Also it has been flight reviewed and evaluated by Ken Kruger previously of Van's Aircraft who by the way had a large input in the designed the RV8 while employed with Van's Aircraft.
 
cowl cooling flow exit radius

It may be too late now, sorry I couldn't suggest it sooner. But while you are down to a clean firewall, its an excellent time to make a generous radius lower cowl lip where the cooling flow exits.

Consider the radius lip on the RV-8 as a minimum, and go larger if you can. Would need to be integrated into the motormount with the -A model. Maybe actually mount it to the motormount tubes with a small gap to the firewall.
 
New ground in a traditional way

I don't know the FWF product, but I do know the experience, workmanship and brain trust available in the KOKZ shop. Ray Lawrence is knowledgeable, has many successful RV builds that have come out of his shop over the past 20 years and will insure a successful completion on this project, as well. Others there, like John Brooker and Pierre Smith are around too as part of the RV brain trust.

Hoping and praying for this to be a wonderful RV reincarnation there.

Blue skies and lets be positive and encouraging as this project progresses.
 
Also it has been flight reviewed and evaluated by Ken Kruger previously of Van's Aircraft who by the way had a large input in the designed the RV8 while employed with Van's Aircraft.

And the RV-9 and 7 and 10 and 12 and 14......

But the best designers in the world can not make a prediction on the aerodynamic influence a change like this will have on spin recovery.
That is why they test.
If this project is truly being "done right", then a spin test program would be part of it.
I am not meaning to say that I am sure that there will be a negative impact on spin recovery. I am saying that basic fundamental understandings of aerodynamic design have shown that it is definitely possible, and until testing is done to prove or disprove that possibility, there is no way to know/guess if it will.
 
RV4 with 200hp UL

I flew the RV4 with the 200 hp UL and Airmaster CS propeller.The prop was set to manual on 2800 rpms so I was getting 180 hp on take off.It is VERY IMPRESSIVE on takeoff, a very smooth and quiet combo.I flew right at dark so I was up only about 10 minutes.I was a co-owner in this plane when it had a 160 lycoming and a Cato 3 blade prop so I was very impressed with the increased acceleration on the runway.I look forward to flying it again.
 
Bang for your Buck

Ok Gents,

As promised here it is. Pics of my 200hp UL Power Plant Upfit on my RV7A.

All work is being completed by Ray Lawrence out of Sanderville Ga. Please contact him direcly with and questions about the power plant itself and prop itself..Im just the money man..he is the brains behind the install. A good friend and an incomprable AC Mechanic and Builder.

His Contact: 478-232-9560

We encourage all comments, encouragements, and questions.

Ray will be giving the answers most of the time. I will be updateing with pics as the project advances. FWF first then the all new panel.

The plane will be at Sun N Fun in Paradise City if you want to see it first hand. The FWF with Cowl complete and painted is our goal for the show but that is ambitious at best. Ray will be in attendance.

First pic starts at the pick up of the project, then with the Egg still installed and its removal, clean FW, eng mount, engine install pics, and finally muffler install on one side and brand new upgraded gear leg and fork with Anti Splat installed. Finally the cowl off to the side that will cover it all.

Enjoy, and fire away!

Tango (I'm Stoked!)

Tango,
Great post!
I've been impressed with UL since flying an early version in a CH750. Disclaimer: I know my subsequent posting from here on isn't totally RV related, but it directly relates to the subject matter. :)

As a former RVer, I've been enjoying my Sonerai 2L. The standard engine for most is the VW derivatives producing 65-80HP. The Sonerai isn't an RV by any stretch (I should know) but alot of bang for little bucks.
Recently the Sonerai has had a few UL 260's installed as it produces 97HP at 160lbs installed weight. (Much more critical than the RV, the Sonerai narrow CG range has a limited weight up front and power-weight ratios, crucial.)
The problem is cost. A new 85HP Revmaster 2300, custom built, run in at the factory and ready to install is $8800 bucks out the door and weighs 165lbs including starter, dual EI and a throttle body. The UL260 is well over twice that amount.

All that said, the UL has a FADEC, electronic fuel control and the NZ Sonerai driver reports "near RV4 performance" at 2-3GPH less fuel burn. Interesting...
Looking forward to your status posts on progress and performance.

V/R
Smokey


NZ Sonerai S2L with UL260


UL260 installation


MGL Avionics, UL sensor can be seen forward of panel. (Sonerai's solo from the rear seat)
 
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Continued updating of Pic's

Gents,

I need some input on something. I have more pics coming soon as more work has been completed on my project so should I add the PICS to my first original post as an edit to keep them all together or should I just put them here in succession in the NEXT post? Lots of pics will be posted in this thread as time passes and the pic entries could become very spread out over time..so just want to make it the way everyone who is following it would rather have it..

Thanks,

Tango
 
I say keep them all in the first post so we dont have to hunt through pages

That won't work. You are limited to number of pictures to each post. Suggest adding as you go and then referencing post # or adding a weblink of where you are posting all your photos to your 1st post.

I'd also request this thread be moved to the alternative engine section of the forum. Helps narrow down the search too.
 
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And the RV-9 and 7 and 10 and 12 and 14......

But the best designers in the world can not make a prediction on the aerodynamic influence a change like this will have on spin recovery.
That is why they test.
If this project is truly being "done right", then a spin test program would be part of it.
I am not meaning to say that I am sure that there will be a negative impact on spin recovery. I am saying that basic fundamental understandings of aerodynamic design have shown that it is definitely possible, and until testing is done to prove or disprove that possibility, there is no way to know/guess if it will.

Not to hijack a thread but... Has any work been done with a 7a tip,0-360,Catto prop,light weight with the extended (2") 0-320 mount to better configure the envelope for the light end of the build spectrum?
RHill
 
Not to hijack a thread but... Has any work been done with a 7a tip,0-360,Catto prop,light weight with the extended (2") 0-320 mount to better configure the envelope for the light end of the build spectrum?
RHill

That is a COMPLETE HIJACK!!!...:)...Stay focused man!...Stay focused..No rabbit trails please.:D
 
PICTURE LOCATIONS

Gents,

So this is what Im gonna do.

As the project progresses and new pictures are added I will Edit the top line in my very first post in this thread to tell you and new viewers what numbered post to go to to see new pictures of the project as it progressed.

This way all pics will be kept in this thread and everyone will be able to easily find all the pics that are posted over the length of time of the project.

Cheers to all and thanks for taking the time to look!!

Tango
 
Possible stability changes

HI Tango,

Looks like a really good job you are doing there. The UL Power engines look pretty nice. I hope I can afford one for my next project.

A couple of things to think about as you go to flight test it are that the increased cowl area forward of the cg is going to be destabilizing directionally so approach spins with care.

The more forward prop plane is going to also be destabilizing under power both longitudinally and directionally. You may see stick force lightening with power on stalls. Airspeed and glide path changes on final tend to be made more difficult with the prop moved forward as well. Imagine you are slow on final so you add power, nose pitches up and you actually slow down, which is a bit counterintuitive. Don't take this as the end of the world or a vote against the project, just some things to consider when you plan your testing.

Cheers

Nige
 
Thanks for your thoughts Nige.

We understand and all that you mention we are aware of. That being said all this has been taken into account before proceeding. This is not a back yard one off project. There are very educated, wise and experienced brains behind this upfit. We are completely confident that the results will be incredible and that many behind us will covet the same. Rest assured the plane will be completely tested through all possible ranges and believe the testing will be considered like a "non-event".

The design behind this power plant on this plane was specifically engineered to end up being as though nothing had changed or so close that no difference in performance could be detected. We just end up with an alternate power plant option other than the Lycoming and a rocking sleek looking plane to boot!

Remember, it will be at Sun n Fun for interested viewers. Not finished of course. Just the fuselage with the FWF Package and lower cowling installed.

We are stoked! and are getting more excited as it all comes together.

Thanks for taking the time to voice concern. It is appreciated.

Tango
 
Thanks Pierre. I appreciate your involvement in the UL alternative engines. Any photos and info on either UL equipped RV is greatly appreciated. Maybe you could get a ride in the RV-4 and give us your impressions?

Have fun at the show.

Thanks again!
 
Nose gear stop

I think your nose gear stop bracket is installed backwards. There's a service bulletin about that.

-Andy
 
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