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Assembling an ECI O-360 kit engine

trib

Well Known Member
I know I promised this some time back, but although able to assemble an engine, my computer skills were not up to posting my experience in an efficient manner. Radomir came to the rescue and took the information I sent him on CD and posted it on a website to make it available to all. :) Than you very much Radomir. :)

The link is: http://www.vitez.net/trib/O360assembly.htm

What is contained is a word document which lists how I assembled the engine with an attempt to give a complete listing of tools, documents and lubricants needed (including where you can obtain them locally, for the most part). Also included are how I made an engine stand for assembly and copied anothers stand for storage. About 100 photos accompany the text.

Building the engine only takes about two weekends, saves about $4,000 and is a very satisfying experience. The four weeks I spent in advance of that, preparing an assembly document, researching and obtaining the lubricants and pumping individuals for the assembly techniques have all been captured here. The major drawback is not having a test stand to do the initial run-in on, so some care will have to be spent doing this later, on the plane. It was a lot of fun to take a break from the lengthy build of the airframe and do a quick start to finish project. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Hopefully, this will help return a small part of the benefit of information I have gotten from other RV builders.
 
Thank you so much Tim!!!! I've been struggling with engine choices for weeks now and trying to decide whether or not I want to build my own. Your excellent write up will help me make an informed decision. Efforts like yours are why this is such a great community.

Kind Regards,
 
Building an engine - the savings are minimal when compared to the benefits lost

Having built the Superior engine in my workshop in 5 days, I lament that decision as a mistake. Although my assembly team was experienced & excellent and the assembly environment squeaky clean, the engine will not be tested in a controlled environment on a test stand.

Instead, it will be tested on the airplane after minimal run in on the ground. Instead of having one less (BIG) thing to worry about on first flight, we have added one more plus summer temps in Tucson make initial cooling all the more problematic. Even at 5am, D/A works against us.

In addition, the fly off period will expand from 25 hours to 40 and the warranty from Superior is shorter.

Yes, we saved $1,500 but when you consider the overall cost of the project, the savings are minimal when compared to the benefits lost.


I wouldn't do it again.
 
Do it your self engine building

I do not normally get involved with these threads. But this one is very important. First I would like to point out that there is a lot more reference material than the overhaul manual. They are called service instructions and service bulletins. I know you put together an ECI engine but for the same reason you used the Lycoming Overhaul Manual, you should also use the most up to date Lycoming Service Instruction and Service Bulletins.
Second, did you check things like valve guide cleareance during assembly?
Did you check piston ring gaps. Did you check cylinder barrel dimensions?
My questions could go on and on here. You left out an incredible amount of information in your instructions. Even with your disclaimer, you have opened yourself up to a huge liability potential. Often things are posted on the internet and by that fact alone become gospel. Be careful posting, it just may be used against you in a Court of Law.
Third, ( I see you had help ) for everyone else, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, build an engine by yourself.
It is a two man operation. No matter how experienced you are, mistakes will be made. At least with two sets of eye balls the error may be caught.
I would suggest anyone contemplating building there own engine to attend the two week course Lycoming offers. You graduate from their course with the proper technical and practical knowledge that you need.
 
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You are correct in that more than one person should be involved. I had others there for the specfic purpose of being a check. One individual even had a task of being the reader. As far as checking things such as clearances and gaps, these were performed, as well as a review and use of updates to the lycoming manual, and specific updates put out by ECI for their components. Gaps/clearances were not spelled out in my instructions as they are already contained in the lycoming overhaul manual. My intent (as stated) was to document how I assembled my engine. It is clearly stated so there is no intention of teaching someone how to assemble an engine. There is no more liability here than any of the other websites which show how they build an airplane and someone uses this information to assist on their build (Dan Checkoway would certainly be a pauper by now if so). I hoped to give individuals who were considering building their own engine so experience I had gained and some information I had learned, that's why we're allowed by the FAA to do this, it's a learning experience. The document I put together largely is just a reference to steps in the lycoming manual and the parts manual to try to place the process into a logical progression, as the manual is incomplete and not set up just for assembly of a new engine. It is also outdated, so I tried to bring it up to date by mentioning some of the lubricants I used (manual lubricants may no longer be available) and their source.

Of course, the sad commentary is that anyone can sue anybody for anything at anytime, but sometimes we need to take a small risk and attempt to help others even though it is of no personal gain, instead of letting that fear imprison us. I know I am thankful for the many individuals involved in this venture who share their knowledge with me in the same manner.
 
Tim, you rock.

I assembled the ECi engine for my RV-6 under the watchful eye of Danny King, who had done it many times. Not a hiccup in 600+ hours.

I'd do it again.

Thank you for your hard work at documenting the assembly process.

Best,
Doug
 
One minor addition...

We just completed assembly of a "parts engine" for a RV-9 in my hangar.

We did have the SB's and SI's from Lycoming as a previous post suggested, and it proved sessential to find the part number for the thorough bolt sealing O-rings that Divco added to the case during OH. These O-rings are not in the basic Parts Manual. This was just one specific example of the need for SI's and SB's.

The IA helping (leading) us followed pretty much the same procedure as post number 1, but he preferred that the case be held horizontally on the bench while we were working on it. A really simple jig from a piece of plywood and a few short 2x4 pieces made this jig.

I'd post a picture, but I'm presently in Liverpool, England catching up on my beer drinking.... :)

gil - usually in Tucson
 
Good Info

trib said:
I know I promised this some time back, but although able to assemble an engine, my computer skills were not up to posting my experience in an efficient manner. Radomir came to the rescue and took the information I sent him on CD and posted it on a website to make it available to all. :) Than you very much Radomir. :)

The link is: http://www.vitez.net/trib/O360assembly.htm

What is contained is a word document which lists how I assembled the engine with an attempt to give a complete listing of tools, documents and lubricants needed (including where you can obtain them locally, for the most part). Also included are how I made an engine stand for assembly and copied anothers stand for storage. About 100 photos accompany the text.

Building the engine only takes about two weekends, saves about $4,000 and is a very satisfying experience. The four weeks I spent in advance of that, preparing an assembly document, researching and obtaining the lubricants and pumping individuals for the assembly techniques have all been captured here. The major drawback is not having a test stand to do the initial run-in on, so some care will have to be spent doing this later, on the plane. It was a lot of fun to take a break from the lengthy build of the airframe and do a quick start to finish project. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Hopefully, this will help return a small part of the benefit of information I have gotten from other RV builders.

Nice write-up! These vintage engines are definitely not rocket science to assemble. Nice pics too... Thanks for sharing your experience.
 
Engine Build

My engine was built from a kit by Robbie Attaway (ECI Rep) in my hangar. I wanted to learn about the engine so we built it at my place. Total construction time (excluding painting of everything) was 9 hours. Of course it helps that Robbie has built dozens of engines.

I certainly wouldn't worry because the engine can't be run in a test cell before install. Very few are.

One of my thoughts during the build was, "where is all my money." There sure isn't many parts and the build isn't 'Rocket Surgery.'
 
RV7 Guy- Test Run Agenda

Hey Darwin,

Have you run your engine yet? I'm interested in what your test program for the initial run was if you have one developed. Anyone else generated a program for a newly constructed engine to be initially run mounted to the airplane?

thanks,
 
You might want to get a hold of Lycoming SI 1427B. It is Lycoming's recommendations for run in after cylinder replacement or engine overhaul when not using a test cell.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."
 
Very Simple

trib said:
Hey Darwin,

Have you run your engine yet? I'm interested in what your test program for the initial run was if you have one developed. Anyone else generated a program for a newly constructed engine to be initially run mounted to the airplane?

thanks,


Hi Tim,

You may be seeking a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. If you follow the breaking procedures for your engines you will be fine. I defer to those who certainly have the expertise. I only followed the recommendations of the builder and ECI.

In my case, the engine was ran three times before flight. Initial run for approximately 2 minutes. Everything was checked over. Next run, a few more minutes to confirm oil pressure/fuel pressure consistency, CHT's, EGT's etc over different RPM ranges... Don't remember the exact regime, but this is close. The final run was a full power run for approximately a minute and idle check.

The next run was the first flight completed by the builder of the engine, Robbie Attaway. Full power. After approximately 45 minutes he felt the rings had seated. Another flight at full power, consistent with the break in procedures. I took over and ran at nearly full power for the next few hours.

Total time now is 230 hours. The oil burn is less than a quart per 25 hours. I believe it is closer to .5 quart per 25 hours. Tough to nail this down. There are no leaks and the temperatures are great.

I cruise at 2400 RPM and WOT. I run LOP but a little more conservatively than some. I redo LOP every 15 minutes.

Also keep in mind that I operate in probably some of the toughest environment in the US with the AZ heat. On the hottest days, I will have to adjust climb rate carefully based on the CHT's. The worst case scenario was 500 fpm with CHT's around 425. These were short duration peaks. Even in the summer I can cruise with temps in the 360-380 range. Great for here.

Good luck.
 
SI is on-line

You might want to get a hold of Lycoming SI 1427B. It is Lycoming's recommendations for run in after cylinder replacement or engine overhaul when not using a test cell.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at your own risk."
... and it's one of the documents that Lycoming has decided to put on-line...:)

http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1427B.pdf

gil A
 
need a better link

I really really want to download this file (the word document in the original post about how to assemble an engine), but the links are not working.....can anyone help or post a better link?

Thanks!
 
Hey guys, I don't mean to keep this old thread alive (maybe I should start a new one), but I'm planning on flying my plane this summer...I have a newly built ECI 0-360 that has never been run.

My question is about doing the initial "Run In" to seat the rings...it supposedly lasts anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes from what I can tell. My concern is that I don't want my first flight to be the Break In for the engine...I feel that I'll be distracted enough (if I even do it) to worry about another task.

Any ideas or suggestions? I was wondering if doing the 45 minute Break In on the ground is a feasible idea. Where would a person get a cooling shroud?
 
A break-in will last longer than first flight.. so you won't necessarily get around that by a 45-min ground run. I'd say best bet is to follow the procedure Mahlon has posted here (or Yahoo groups.. I forget) for the initial ground run-in... it's a series of shorter runs.. not one long run.. ECI also has recommendations on their site about how to handle those first few hours..


Good luck!


My question is about doing the initial "Run In" to seat the rings...it supposedly lasts anywhere from 20 to 45 minutes from what I can tell. My concern is that I don't want my first flight to be the Break In for the engine...I feel that I'll be distracted enough (if I even do it) to worry about another task.
 
Hey fellas,
Thanks, I've been over the ECI2fly website and read everything that applies...maybe I'm missing something. What I'm interpreting is that "Break In" and "Run In" are 2 seperate things, not to be confused with each other.

ECI says that "Break In" will last several hours (around 50 I think)...but "Run In" is the critical first hour when the rings seat and you're trying not to glaze the cylinders. They suggest using a test cell (I can't do this) or using a cooling shroud on the airframe for a ground run. It seems that some folks opt to fly the Run In, which ECI says you can do, and shows you how to keep the engine cool while you do it (because it's WOT for 45 min.).

The last idea makes me nervous because I'd be flying WOT in a never-before-flown airplane.
 
I followed ECI's run in/ break in procedure and it worked just fine. My engine stopped using oil in the first 5-7hrs and I only had to add 1qt at 25hrs after the 10hr oil change. The ECI cylinders break in a lot quicker than any others I have used. Cylinder head temps also stabilized in the first 10hrs.
Sonny, As you know I had the same problem as you will have a new airplane and engine. Leave the gear fairings and wheelpants off for the first few hours to keep the speed down. If you follow the ECI instructions and plumb the fuel system to Van's plans you will do just fine. Don
 
Gil,

Here is the online listing of the Lycoming Service Instructions:

http://www.lycoming.textron.com:80/support/publications/service-instructions/index.jsp

Here is the specific Service Instruction regarding Engine Break-In and Oil Consumption Test Limits

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1427B.pdf

I, too, am building an ECI IO-360 Titan engine and plan to follow the Lycoming guidelines. (I have yet to see any discrepancy between the ECI guidelines and the Lycoming guidelines.)

Hope this helps.
 
Lycoming on-line set is very incomplete...

Gil,

Here is the online listing of the Lycoming Service Instructions:

http://www.lycoming.textron.com:80/support/publications/service-instructions/index.jsp

Here is the specific Service Instruction regarding Engine Break-In and Oil Consumption Test Limits

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1427B.pdf

I, too, am building an ECI IO-360 Titan engine and plan to follow the Lycoming guidelines. (I have yet to see any discrepancy between the ECI guidelines and the Lycoming guidelines.)

Hope this helps.

Bret.... I am aware of the very few Lycoming documents on-line. I really wish they would publish all of them.

I was specifically answering the post for "Lycoming Technical Manual " which is not on-line....:(

Luckily, Superior has published all of the Vantage Technical (installation, overhaul, users) Manuals on-line.... they should be commended for this.

thumbs_up_nathan_eady_01.jpg


A big thumbs up to Superior!

gil A

PS ... the new Vantage manuals are written in a much clearer fashion than the antique Lycoming ones...
 
Thanks again, guys. As I get closer to my first flight, I'll revisit the idea of flying during the Run In...maybe it won't bother me so much after I get some transition training!
 
You know, Don, that's not enough of a reason to not take you up on that offer! Say when! I'll take every opportunity I can to get off the ground at this point...it's been too long. ;)
 
It seems I'm having trouble to access that original page and webarchive doesn't seem to have copy of the page either. Anyone would have similar pages to offer?
 
I know it has been a while, But I can't seem to access the original web page for the assembly instructions. Does anyone have a copy?
Thanks
AL Grajek
 
Will send copies on CD

I'm not the web wiz that Radomir is. He actually set this up so it could be viewed with the info supplied by me on CD.

I get requests quite frequently for the info and just mail whoever asks a CD. If you would like a copy, it has about 100 pictures and some instructions I generated, all you need to do is send me a mailer that is self-addressed and with proper postage for a CD (I normally used 3 stamps), and I'll be happy to burn you a copy and mail it back.

My address is:

Tim Ribble
570 Cardamon Dr
Virginia Beach, VA 23464

Putting the engine together was one of the most enjoyable projects on the airplane. I look forward to firing it up this spring and hope the enjoyment continues!:D
 
Cost for Kit Engine?

I am far away from needing an engine but am curious about the price of a kit engine. O-360 or IO-360.

Thanks for any ballpark price.

John
 
New engine

Prices will range from around $19,500 on up depending on issues such as:
Roller tappets or not
Carb or Injection
FP or CS
Etc

My ECI 0-360 was assembled by an A&P from a ECI kit with standard tappets, new carburator, mags and starter and came out around the $19.5 number, you could save money by assembling yourself and if you have a core for the carb. The ECI kit also came with the CS setup which I would think you could sell for more savings. One point to consider is that the engine builders such as Mattituck , aerosport etc will test run the engine and provide warranty coverage which is probably additional piece of mind for break-in and the first flight a point I did not consider until I was getting ready for the first flight :)
 
during the summer, I was quoted ~$13600 for a base ECI IO-360. I think, this did not include starter, alt, FI forward sump, Ign. By the time I added the stuff I wanted, the price was pushing $20K.
 
As compared to an assembled cost of $26k-$27k for one of the ready-to-run Lyclones, this is actually not bad.
 
A little high...

As compared to an assembled cost of $26k-$27k for one of the ready-to-run Lyclones, this is actually not bad.

...I think for an assembled clone price....:)

From the Mattituck web site...

180 HP TMX IO-360 Precision EX fuel injection system, ALL NEW PART ENGINE completely assembled and tested is available for $21,300.00 for constant speed applications and $21,000.00 for fixed pitch use.

Or is this not an apples to apples comparison to your number?

http://www.mattituck.com/tmx program.htm

Superior is a little higher at $23,200 for 180HP-FI-CS

http://www.xp-360.com/
 
The engine I have hanging on my 7-A, an IO-360 that I assembled, cost me right at 21,000 for parts. Cold air horizontal induction.

enba.jpg
 
Was hoping to get link for those instrx on building the kit...? the links in the thread aren't working..thx
 
sent by CD

miyu1975,

Looks like Carlos has found a blog from someone else, but these are not the ones from this thread. Go to the 4th page in this thread and the 5th entry on that page (from TRIB). The instructions aren't maintained anywhere, but I offered to mail a CD with everything on it to anyone who needs one. You just need to send me the addressed mailer.
 
Oops...wrong blog, sorry

My apologies about that Tim. If you'll excuse my mistake, I'll send you a request for a copy of your build. When the time comes, I'm leaning on buiilding an ECI from a kit also.
 
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