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RV-10 window installation

bhoppe2

Member
I have read the many threads about installing windows in the RV-10. Apparently, most are using Weld-0n 10 following Van's procedure. However, I was wondering if anyone has used PPG PR-1829, which is the material used by Cirrus to install their windows. PPG claims it does not cause crazing and has good adhesion with our materials.
 
I used Lord adhesive. Windows have been in for almost two years. Painted in Dec 12. No cracks or issues as of yet. I also glassed over the seems.

You can get the adhesive from Geoff at Aerosport Products. It's not on the web site at the moment, so you'll have to give him a call.
 
As Bob mentioned, we sell Lord Adhesive for the windows and windscreen. We offer the applicator guns and 215 mL tubes of the adhesive. We recommend three tubes to do your windows and windscreen. This adhesive is also recommended for installing our overhead console. If you have any questions let me know. [email protected]
 
I would never blame anyone for trying something new on an Experimental airplane, it's the kind of thing that keeps everyone interested.
Weld-on is included in your kit and is an excellent choice for your windows.
Crazing occurs when you apply too much pressure to the window while Weld-on cures. Follow Vans instructions to the letter and all will be well with your windows.
As to your questions about yet another window adhesive, sorry can't help you.
Hope that helps....
 
I used epoxy/flox mix for all my transparencies with two layers of BID fiberglass over the joints. It is a well proven method of installation that has been used by the Rutan crowd for over 30 years. I used Weldon to install a compass mount in my Cessna years ago and there was crazing within 6 months. With all the reports of crazing showing up on the forums there was no way I was going to use it on my -10.
 
I used LORD adhesive also. Just installed the windows on Friday. Was a very easy process. Call Zac and he will set you up with what you need. The only messy part is pulling off the tape.
 
I'm glad this thread had a happy ending (you used Lord adhesive). :) I share the same sentiment as John. We did one window on our -10 with weld on and the rest with Lord. Never again would I want to mess with weld on.
 
RV-10 Window Installation

Because of Dangerous Goods shipping concerns it is not possible to get Weld On included in the kit here in Oz. Because I was using West Sytem epoxy products I used their recommended product GFlex to "glue" the screen, doors and back windows into the cabin top. With the appropriate flox (306) added, this product was good to work with and certainly fixed the windows in. The plans call for lower outside windscreen fairing to be build up of layers of glass and epoxy onto clean roughened (sanded) ally and bottom of screen and this is what I did using West System 105 Resin & 206 Hardener, I also filled the transition gap around all windows with the same resin/hardener & 306 added. Two layers of light glass over the filled gap to carry the paint and stop paint cracks later finished the window install. After sanding, filling etc job looked tight and neat. Now many months later the fuse is in the paint shop to be professionally painted, these guys are very particular and while masking around the rear widows and trimming etc they drew my attention to small areas where the transition glass covering had not adhered,a razor blade could be pushed between the window and fibreglass, I hoped they were wrong and that this was only possible because the covering was thin and the blade was being forced in destroying the bond. ALAS, further investigation confirmed that ALL the outside coverings including the bottom screen fairing had failed to adhere to the window material, because the lower fairing was much thicker and was very tight to the screen because of the curve, the lack of adhesion was more difficult to confirm. I contacted my experienced West System supplier and they were not at all surprised that the epoxy hadn't bonded, their only true recommended product for plastics and as it turns out aluminium as well is GFlex. My fix after a lesson hard learned, remove all the transition fairings, the only hard bit of that was removale from the cabin top side, the window side simply came away. Remove most of the lower windscreen fairing and rebuild using GFlex as the "epoxy". Route (carefully) around all edges of all windows to remove the epoxy/flox mix and replace with GFlex & 306 flox. The painters will now remask the windows at the previous transition fairing edge position and paint directly onto the sanded window material and across the filled joint. If the GFlex holds adhesion and because as the name suggests the product allows some expansion then hopefully I may not get paint cracks but time will tell. FYI only, Your journey may be different, apologies for such a long post.
 
Another product option:

TECHNICAL DATA
PR-1425 Class B Windshield And Canopy Sealant
Description
PR-1425 Class B is an aircraft windshield and canopy sealant. It has a service temperature range from -65°F (-54°C) to 250°F (121°C), with intermittent excursions up to 275°F (135°C). This material is designed for fillet sealing of properly prepared glass, polycarbonate, acrylic and other aircraft sealing appli- cations. This product is specifically formulated not to craze substrates. The cured sealant exhibits excellent resistance to UV and weather exposure.
PR-1425 Class B is a two-part, dichromate cured poly- sulfide compound. The uncured material is a low sag, thixotropic paste, suitable for application by extrusion gun or spatula. This sealant has excellent adhesion to common aircraft substrates.
The following tests are in accordance with PRC- DeSoto International and other OEM specification test methods.
Application Properties (Typical)
Performance Properties (Typical)
Cured 7 days @ 77°F (25°C), 50% RH
Cured specific gravity 1.49
Nonvolatile content, % 93
Ultimate cure hardness,
Durometer A 55
Peel strength, pli (N/25 mm), 100% cohesion Dry, 14 days at 77°F (25°C)
Color Part A
Part B Mixed
Mixing ratio By weight
Base viscosity
(Brookfield #7 @ 2 rpm), Poise (Pa-s)
Black Black Black
Part A:part B 10:100
16,000 (1600)
*Primed with PR-142 Adhesion Promoter
Thermal rupture resistance - Retains pressure of 10 psi with only negligible deformation, both before and after immersion in JRF.
Low temperature flexibility @ -65°F (-54°C) - No cracking, checking or loss of adhesion.
Corrosion resistance - No corrosion, adhesion loss, softening, or blistering after 20-day immersion in 2- layer salt water/JRF @ 140°F (60°C).
Resistance to fluids - Excellent resistance to water, alcohols, petroleum-base and synthetic lubricating oils, and petroleum-base hydraulic fluids.
Flexibility - No cracks after bending 180 degrees over 0.125 inch (3.18 mm) mandrel.
Repairability to itself - Excellent to both freshly cured as well as fuel aged and abraded fillets.
Fungus resistance Non-nutrient
Note: The application and performance property val- ues above are typical for the material, but not intend- ed for use in specifications or for acceptance inspec- tion criteria because of variations in testing methods, conditions and configurations.
Slump, inches (mm) Initial
B-1/2 0.20 (5.08)
B-1 0.15 (3.81)
B-2 0.20 (5.08)
50 Minutes 90 Minutes —— ——
—— ——
0.25 (6.35) 0.25 (6.35)
MIL-G-25667 (Glass)
MIL-P-8184 (Acrylic)* MIL-P-83310 (Polycarbonate)* MIL-S-5059 (Stainless steel)* AMS-T-9046 (Titanium comp. C)* AMS-QQ-A-250/12 (Aluminum)
50 (222) 48 (214) 46 (205) 46 (205) 46 (205) 46 (205)
Application life and cure time @ 77°F (25°C), 50% RH
Cure time
Application Tack free
life time Durometer (hours) (hours) (hours)
B-1/2 1/2 <8
B-1 1 <24
B-2 2 <24
24 48 48
to 30 A
Where Smart Solutions Take Flight®
 
Many people fiberglass their windows into the top. If you're gonna do that, why not glue the windows in with something user friendly like Lexcel (a hardware store product for plexi and lexan) or Proseal?

With the fiberglass capturing the plexi, what's the benefit of a specialty adhesive?
 
Other method

As I embark on the fuselage kit I know the windows are not far off. The little research I have done has lead me to consider the silpruf method done by glastar for their windows. The 5 part series on YouTube details the installation process. Why has no one thought of molding a fairing for the windshield that can be riveted/glassed into place and do all the transperiencies with this method...including the windshield? I think it would be interesting to create a fairing that attaches to the upper forward fuselage that already has a curve in it. Light glass work to blend it in. It would also have a relief for the windshield to be cut to fit into place.

1.) It would crest a uniform look.
2.) pretty much avoids the cracking worry
3.) allows for window installation at anytime even after exterior paint
4.) if there is a window crack it's easily removed and replaced
 
Many people fiberglass their windows into the top. If you're gonna do that, why not glue the windows in with something user friendly like Lexcel (a hardware store product for plexi and lexan) or Proseal?

With the fiberglass capturing the plexi, what's the benefit of a specialty adhesive?

The glass on the windows is cosmetic to cover the transition between the window and canopy cover. Traditionally, the materials expand at different rates causing the paint to crack. The glass isn't doing anything to hold the window in place.

There already has been once incident in which a rear window has departed the aircraft in flight. I don't recall what adhesive was used, but I'm sure that the thread is still in the archives if somebody wants to search for it.

I used Lord adhesive. I've been very happy with it and there has been no cracks after five years. I don't recall the product number of the adhesive, but Geoff @ Aerosport Products sells it.
 
As I embark on the fuselage kit I know the windows are not far off. The little research I have done has lead me to consider the silpruf method done by glastar for their windows. The 5 part series on YouTube details the installation process. Why has no one thought of molding a fairing for the windshield that can be riveted/glassed into place and do all the transperiencies with this method...including the windshield? I think it would be interesting to create a fairing that attaches to the upper forward fuselage that already has a curve in it. Light glass work to blend it in. It would also have a relief for the windshield to be cut to fit into place.

1.) It would crest a uniform look.
2.) pretty much avoids the cracking worry
3.) allows for window installation at anytime even after exterior paint
4.) if there is a window crack it's easily removed and replaced

There have been several people that have attempted to make fairings to allow the easier re-installation of the windows. In my opinion, none of the solutions so far look at nice as the plans method. I suspect others feel the same or you would be seeing more RV-10s with them.
 
Another vote for Lord. Super easy to work with, great bond, and easy to get a nice looking finished fillet.
 
FWIW, I've installed RV-10 windows using both Weld-on (Van's recommended) and Lord adhesive (from Aerosport Products). Adhesion with both is great however the Lord adhesive is MUCH easier to work with. Issues with the Weld-on are that it skins over very quickly so working time is short. Not really an issue for the rear windows but can be an issue on the door windows and windscreen. It also tends to get "stringy" at about the time it skins over so you better have everything well masked. Final issue is that it cures very, very hard. This makes it difficult to sand out and remove masking material that the Weld-on dried on top of. This is also likely a major contributing factor to the cracking issue many have experienced, especially if the gap between the actual window and joggle is filled with Weld-on. The Lord adhesive cures more slowly, doesn't quickly skin over, doesn't get stringy, and the fully cured product is more like epoxy than concrete (like weld-on).

My recommendation would be to use Lord adhesive.
 
Sikaflex is your friend

I am busy with RV build number 7, this my third RV 10 and have always used Sikaflex 295. Easy to work with and never had any problems.
 
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