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Door Safety latch and warning lights

bomber_JB

Active Member
Unsecured doors are a very big deal. I'm completing my wiring diagram and panel layout and need to decide on Door ajar warning lights or not.

I discussed with Van's and discovered that the finish kit comes with a cabin door safety latch. I'll certainly install that. Optionally I can also purchase 4 micro switches (Es-00306) that are part of the RV-14 (Drawing 38-32) and install one on each of the locking pins in the RV-10 doors. The micro switches would be wired to indicate a locking pin was not fully engaged and light up red LEDs on the panel.

Question is: Just how much redundency does one need to ensure the doors are secure?

What have others done?

Jerry
 
I'm interested what others say as well.

I've been in a 10 that has 5mm red LED warnings lights dead center in the dash. He's also almost lost a door but managed to grab it just as it opened during climb out. It was closed and partially latched.

He said that the door is not closable until you slow way down (something like under 80 or 90 knots) and it was all he could do to keep the door down until it could be closed. He happened to have another pilot in the passenger seat that could manage the plane while he fought the door.

I don't really know what the solution is here beyond having it in the checklist and seeing if your EFIS has a way to integrate a warning. The LEDs don't really work that great since they're dark while you board and if you do everything right they stay dark. And when they illuminate they aren't very bright or noticeable. Putting them dead center may make it worse since there isn't much there with a digital dash to look at.
 
I connected mine to discrete inputs in the G3X
It creates a warning on the screen for each door.

Part of my pre takeoff check is to manually check both doors then verify no alerts on the EFIS.

I agree the red lights are not optimal. Had them in the old panel, hard to see under certain lighting.

Also, I ALWAYS close the passenger door myself, from the outside. Doesn?t matter who?s flying with me.
 
Everyone will have their own opinion on this, but I'm (not yet flying and) in the camp of "PlaneAround latch system: problem solved, problem staying solved."
 
Jerry,
I have spent my career operating aircraft they have doors I cannot see. They need a light to tell me if they are not closed. With a door that is two feet from you, I fail to see the value of a warning light unless you plan to have a takeoff configuration warning system programmed into your EFIS. Just look at the door.

I added the cam in the center of the door to reduce the bending in the middle of the door at higher speeds. I have a lot of pin penetration into the airframe and it would be almost impossible for the handle to be latched and have a pin not fully inserted.

I did not build my -10 but appreciate that the builder kept it simple. I can see the flaps, no need for an indicator. If I have a heavy wing, I burn out of that tank, no trim needed. In climb I add 2# to the right rudder, in descent, the left. No need for rudder trim for the few minutes it takes.

It is all personal preference, YMMV.
 
I would install the Plane Around center latch were I to build another 10.

I did not like the design of Vans door warning lights, basically they are continuously energizing a relay in order to turn off a light.

What I did was to use their switch and magnet setup, but I used green LED lights to show the doors closed, and a momentary push button to energize the circuit. No relays. Part of my check lists was to push the button, and check for two green. Both pre engine start, and run up check lists.

I feel that an active action by the pilot to check something is is working, is better than waiting for a passive alarm to show there is a problem.

I suppose if you are sufficiently concerned about redundancy, you could have both systems......
 
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I would install the Plane Around center latch were I to build another 10.

I did not like the design of Vans door warning lights, basically they are continuously energizing a relay in order to turn off a light.

What I did was to use their switch and magnet setup, but I used green LED lights to show the doors closed, and a momentary push button to energize the circuit. No relays. Part of my check lists was to push the button, and check for two green. Both pre engine start, and run up check lists.

I feel that an active action by the pilot to check something is is working, is better than waiting for a passive alarm to show there is a problem.

I suppose if you are sufficiently concerned about redundancy, you could have both systems......

I'm a bit confused by the logic for the pre-flight actions mentioned.

If you have simple LED indicators that are connected to NC contacts on physical micro switches that show red when the doors are open - then you have a default 'lamp test' every time you get in the plane.

Close the doors and the red LEDs go out. Pretty much as simple as it can be. :)

PS - the above in conjunction with the Plane Around latch.
 
I'm a bit confused by the logic for the pre-flight actions mentioned.

Why do you use a check list in the first place???

Is it not to make sure you have checked things, and assured that they are working correctly before you take an action------Start Engine list, Takeoff list, Landing list etc.

We could just forget the check lists, and wait for the engine to get quiet or other things to go wrong and activate a warning light:rolleyes:

Besides, I just simply do not like using power continuously for the purpose of turning a light off.

Anyway, this is just what I did, you are free do do it however makes sense to you.
 
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Unsecured doors are a very big deal. I'm completing my wiring diagram and panel layout and need to decide on Door ajar warning lights or not.

I discussed with Van's and discovered that the finish kit comes with a cabin door safety latch. I'll certainly install that. Optionally I can also purchase 4 micro switches (Es-00306) that are part of the RV-14 (Drawing 38-32) and install one on each of the locking pins in the RV-10 doors. The micro switches would be wired to indicate a locking pin was not fully engaged and light up red LEDs on the panel.

Question is: Just how much redundency does one need to ensure the doors are secure?

What have others done?

Jerry

Both the center safety latch and door warning systems are included with the finishing kit and cannot be deleted - No need to order parts.

I have center latch like the planearound, but will include sensors for the rear door pins and tie that to either an LED (no relay) on the panel or to the G3X. I can easily see if the front is latched and one is adequate in case of an error where I forget to latch the door. I think this is the bigger risk with a center latch and not as much the risk of the rear pin not finding it's hole.

Larry
 
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I would install the Plane Around center latch were I to build another 10.

I did not like the design of Vans door warning lights, basically they are continuously energizing a relay in order to turn off a light.

As has been mentioned in the past, the system was specifically designed the way it is, to help mitigate a false safe indication caused by a variety of failure types within the system (broken wire, shorted wire, etc.)
 
So, 2 different things being discussed...

1) a warning system to ensure the front and back pins are engaged is provided with the kit. It uses magnets in the pins and reed switches to detect them. If a door doesn?t have BOTH pins engaged, an LED will illuminate. Alternatively, or in addition to, you can drive discreet inputs on a G3x or other device.

2) mechanical door closure system: Vans designed their middle latch to ensure complete closure (there has been at least 1 aircraft with it installed that lost a door anyway. PlaneAround has a really nice center latch system that?s integrated with the stock closure mechanism. In addition to holding the door closed, it actually pulls the door shut when the stock handle is rotated into the closed position. With this system installed, it?s not possible to have the typical issue that allows a door to depart the aircraft (front pin engaged, aft pin outside the aircraft). The PlaneAround design is MUCH nicer than the Vans afterthought. Further, PlaneAround also makes longer pins that extend further into the frame than stock.

In summary, the PlaneAround center latch should be considered a must have for -10 builders. For those that don?t choose this path, door pin extension into door frames should be confirmed during construction. Further, preflight check should be done on front AND aft pins (both doors) to confirm closure. Regardless of latching system, the interior handles should also be checked to confirm fully latched.
 
Why do you use a check list in the first place???

Is it not to make sure you have checked things, and assured that they are working correctly before you take an action------Start Engine list, Takeoff list, Landing list etc.

We could just forget the check lists, and wait for the engine to get quiet or other things to go wrong and activate a warning light:rolleyes:

Besides, I just simply do not like using power continuously for the purpose of turning a light off.

Anyway, this is just what I did, you are free do do it however makes sense to you.

My suggestion was much closer to the dome light system in your car.

Warning lights on the panel sort of over-ride check lists - that why we make them red...:)

No power is consumed when the doors are closed - that was for Vans system with relays.
 
Correction.....

Vans designed their middle latch to ensure complete closure (there has been at least 1 aircraft with it installed that lost a door anyway.


The middle latch was designed to be a passive back-up in case the door isn't correctly latched.

It doesn't ensure complete closure of the door.

As far as it not preventing at least one door loss.... The fact that these airplanes are in reality amateur built can be an explanation for an occasional failure. I am not meaning that it is a certainty, because the safety latch was not extensively flight tested, but it can't be discounted either since there have also been cases where the safety latch did save the door from being lost.
 
the system was specifically designed the way it is, to help mitigate a false safe indication caused by a variety of failure types within the system (broken wire, shorted wire, etc.)

I have no idea if the system has be redesigned since I did mine.

As I remember this, (10 years or so since I installed the warning lights) the power for the light and relay is from the same source. Thus a broken wire here can cause a false safe indication. Also a broken wire from the relay to the LED will cause a false safe indication.

Consider this; I pull the plane out to go fly and do my walk around----all good so I get in and shut the doors. I flip on the master, and while waiting for the EFIS to boot up I start the check list. Right at the top is "Check Doors" I push the button, and get two green. At that time I know the doors are secure. If I do not get two green, I know there is a problem.

Now, same scenario with factory automatic red warning lights. I pull the plane out to go fly and do my walk around----all good so I get in and shut the doors. I flip on the master, and while waiting for the EFIS to boot up I start the check list. Right at the top is "Check Doors". I glance at the warning lights, and they are not on. All I really know at the moment is the lights are not on------but I have no idea if the system is actually working as designed or if there is a broken wire or a failed light.

I suppose it would be possible to put in both a green light for latched and a red for not latched, and drive the green from the N.O. contact of the relay. Might be a better system------after all, lots of things in the plane have booth red and green indications, oil temp and pressure gauges comes to mind.

As I said previously;

Anyway, this is just what I did, you are free do do it however makes sense to you.
 
This is a lot of discussion on what has been previously hashed out. The RV-10 doors are problematic, steps must be taken to mitigate this risk but a proven path has already been identified. I?ll summarize:
- Plane around center cam. This is simply a must do. The Van?s after thought SB safety door latch is marginal at best, and just not acceptable on these $200K airplanes.
- Each door pin has a magnet that closes it?s own micro switch. The switches are wired in series so that only all four pins properly in place will yield the doors shut indication. For the vast majority of builders this signal is used to activate an EFIS input (so no extra relays or LEDs required or desired). On the SkyView I have a red indication on the EMS display, once all the doors pins are in it goes to green. Just about as simple as it gets.

Carl
 
Door Warning

I used the PlaneAround latch and can't rotate the handle unless both pins are engaged and the cam is in place on the block. For a backup, the rear pins contact a mechanical microswitch wired to the G3X so that there's a CAS on the EFIS which also illuminates the Master Warning light on the panel. This same Master Warning light is used to alert for low oil pressure, below min fuel and other can't-be-missed info. Just another way to solve for the same problem.
 
In my humble opinion Van?s should adopt the plarne around system and the Andair fuel valve as standard kit issue just like they did with the Vetterman exhaust.

I love Van?s company and my RV10, but was sorely disappointed with the ugly door latch ?fix?, especially with how elegant, simple, and effective the plane around system is for not much more installation effort. I like cheap as much as the next guy, but we?re talking about a serious concern (door pops) on 200k+ machines. Do it right. Lights plus latches.
 
I have no idea if the system has be redesigned since I did mine.

As I remember this, (10 years or so since I installed the warning lights) the power for the light and relay is from the same source. Thus a broken wire here can cause a false safe indication. Also a broken wire from the relay to the LED will cause a false safe indication.

Consider this; I pull the plane out to go fly and do my walk around----all good so I get in and shut the doors. I flip on the master, and while waiting for the EFIS to boot up I start the check list. Right at the top is "Check Doors" I push the button, and get two green. At that time I know the doors are secure. If I do not get two green, I know there is a problem.

Now, same scenario with factory automatic red warning lights. I pull the plane out to go fly and do my walk around----all good so I get in and shut the doors. I flip on the master, and while waiting for the EFIS to boot up I start the check list. Right at the top is "Check Doors". I glance at the warning lights, and they are not on. All I really know at the moment is the lights are not on------but I have no idea if the system is actually working as designed or if there is a broken wire or a failed light.

I suppose it would be possible to put in both a green light for latched and a red for not latched, and drive the green from the N.O. contact of the relay. Might be a better system------after all, lots of things in the plane have booth red and green indications, oil temp and pressure gauges comes to mind.

As I said previously;

Mike,
I didn't say the design mitigated all possible failure modes, and I didn't mean that it is the only way it should be done.
They are experimental airplanes after all... do what every you think is right for you depending on what type of indication system you have to connect it to..
 
I don?t remember the technical details, but my door lights through my SkyView system are continuous green for closed and red for open.
 
I have installed the Plane Around 180 door latch on my RV-10. I have also installed the Van's magnetic proximity switches on each of the 4 door pins. These are wired in series on each side so that if either switch is not closed or a wire is broken, there will be a door open "alarm" indication. I have these wired into the door closed inputs on my G3X which will show as a Warning on the EFIS and light the Master Warning light.

To me, this seems to be a reasonable solution, as it improves the door latch, and also makes for a simple, integrated alarm should one of the door pins not be engaged. And Doors Closed will also be on my runup checklist.
 
PlaneAround latch

While this is being discussed, I want to reiterate for new builders who want to use the PA latch or/and want 180 degrees of travel on the pushrods, to cut the gear racks on the handle (from Vans) in half making two 5" pieces. The instructions have you cut them shorter and a lot of customers end up buying the 180 retro kit instead of the new 180 because they cut them per Vans instructions. The difference is the 5" racks are included on the retro kit. The gear racks are really expensive to purchase from my supplier. If anyone has questions on the doors not answered here feel free to call. 801-580-3737
 
Reed Switch Reliability

I'm working on the doors on our RV-10 this week along with another RV-10 builder at the same place in his build.

One of the questions being asked is the reliability of the Van's-provided magnetic reed switches. In other words, are they overly sensitive or do they work properly when installed per the manual?

We are both doing the Plane Around 180 latch, along with the Aerosport exterior handles.

I plane to wire the reed switches to the GEA/G3X, but want to make sure I wouldn't be better off using a micro switch.

Any comments from builders with flying RV-10's and the reed switches?
 
A friend crashed his ten and lost his life while trying to grab the passenger door that popped open right after take off. A tragic loss. He had a plane around latch and warning lights integrated in his Garmin panel. He was in a rush to fly off his “phase one” because of his work commitments. The door latch had been only partially thrown over. Plane around latch good to have, warning lights good to have, a check list with positive verification.....priceless!
 
Absolutely.

I have the stock set up and haven't fitted the centre latch (not required under our airworthiness rules). I have wired the door sensors into my Skyview.

I ALWAYS do my pre-TO checks from a checklist. This includes one item to check "Doors closed and Green" and another to check any outstanding Caution and Warning on the Skyview. Twice on my test flying, I found the aft latch was outside the frame and "Red" on the EFIS. After that, I now close the doors before start and have another check at that stage that doors are closed. I also board pax before I get into my seat and close their door from the outside.

Haven't had an issue since. But whatever system you choose and however many latches you put in, it is worthless unless you do the checks correctly.
 
I have G3X setup and did mine a bit different than the plans.

Instead of using the relays and sensors that Vans sends with the kit, I eliminated that by using 'normally open' sensors instead. Using 540-MP201702 proximity sensors I wired them similar to the plans, however I just grounded one end to nearby attachment bolts. Then I ran and chained all four wires to a single input which I installed into my GEA 24 as a discrete input.

If the doors are open the discrete input is getting a ground, which then has a 'doors open' in red on my panel. As I close the doors and latch them the magnets in the rod ends break that connection and in turn removes the ground. If all 4 grounds are removed then there's no alert and that only happens if the doors are shut and latched. Very simple.

Then of course doors checked is on my checklists before Taxi, as well as before take off.
 
I have G3X setup and did mine a bit different than the plans.

Instead of using the relays and sensors that Vans sends with the kit, I eliminated that by using 'normally open' sensors instead. Using 540-MP201702 proximity sensors I wired them similar to the plans, however I just grounded one end to nearby attachment bolts. Then I ran and chained all four wires to a single input which I installed into my GEA 24 as a discrete input.

If the doors are open the discrete input is getting a ground, which then has a 'doors open' in red on my panel. As I close the doors and latch them the magnets in the rod ends break that connection and in turn removes the ground. If all 4 grounds are removed then there's no alert and that only happens if the doors are shut and latched. Very simple.

Then of course doors checked is on my checklists before Taxi, as well as before take off.

I am in the process of taking the relays out and using the annunciator inputs on my AFS 5500s. You can configure them NO or NC.
 
Any comments from builders with flying RV-10's and the reed switches?

Stock Vans system, flying since 2011, no problems, never has needed adjustment. But I always crane my head around and visually confirm both doors are pulled in, fore and aft; it?s a runup checklist item. Trust but verify.
 
In the spirit of "What I have"

I guess I have overkill.. :D

I have the PA center cam 180 degree latch kit.

In addition I have a red idiot light front and center for each door. The circuit is normally closed, i.e lights on when the doors are open and the master is on, with front and rear limit switches (not magnetic) that the tip of the pins hit in the last 1/4" of travel opening both switches. The switches are wired so both switches have to be met for the light to go out. Door latch not fully closed, or one pin not in, light on. Nothin' fancy
 
A friend crashed his ten and lost his life while trying to grab the passenger door that popped open right after take off. A tragic loss. He had a plane around latch and warning lights integrated in his Garmin panel. He was in a rush to fly off his ?phase one? because of his work commitments. The door latch had been only partially thrown over. Plane around latch good to have, warning lights good to have, a check list with positive verification.....priceless!

This has been discussed often and there are many opinions on it.
In general, if the door is shut it will stay shut.

1. Make sure the your door pins engage in the frame and use the Planearound system. I have the 90 deg system. If I were to build again the 180 deg kit from Planearond is the best to ensure a safe and engaged system. Mine is stock and it works great. I do think there was at least one door that came off with the latch closed that did not have totally engaged pins. Could have had other problems the construction of the door (ie. door was bending in flight)

2. Use the Van's kit to light up the dash or your screen if the latch is not engaged.

3. If the door opens just fly the plane. There have been reports of doors opening inflight at cruise speed and the pilot was able to reach up and close it. :eek:

It was very sad to lose the pilot mentioned due to a door opening..dang.

After 1300 hours of flying the -10, I verify the doors are closed each time but it is so easy to do a checklist and then get caught on a hot day waiting for clearance to takeoff and you open it to stay cool and might forget to close it all the way again. I suspect that this is what happens most of the time.

Most of the emotion on this subject comes from people who want the doors to be safe when open like a Cirrus, and I am not sure how safe they are?

Have fun out there! I love flying the -10!
 
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