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Backup Steam gauges

Ex Bonanza Bucko

Well Known Member
I will soon (I hope) be flying either a new S-LSA RV12 or a professionally built E-LSA. I am old fashioned--lotsa CFI, IFR, long range and Mexico Flying. I am used to steam gages....they are all old friends.

I think I would like to have backup steam Altimeter and Airspeed in any plane with a "glass cockpit." So do you know if there is a restriction on those in either a SLSA or an -ELSA.

I will go to Aurora to test fly an RV12 next month and I'm sure I can get an answer to these questions there but I'd like your comments in wisdom first.

Thanks,
EBB
 
E-LSA won't be a problem after the time is flown off. S-LAS will be a lot harder but not impossible. Lots of paperwork with the FAA or a DER going S-LSA just like the spam cans today.
 
I'm going back in my memory bank, from things Mel has mentioned over the years. I believe I am correct here:

Unless you take the S-LSA aircraft and re-register it as an E-LSA, I don't think it is permissible. However, as others mentioned, if you buy an E-LSA, after the inspection and after the hours are flown off, you can add them.
 
Gary is correct. No changes can be made to SLSA without written approval from the manufacturer. The operating limitations state that any unauthorized changes will make the airworthiness certificate invalid.

SLSA can be re-certificated as ELSA. After that you may make any changes you like.

Actually SLSA is more restricted than Standard Certificated aircraft.
 
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I will soon (I hope) be flying either a new S-LSA RV12 or a professionally built E-LSA. I am old fashioned--lotsa CFI, IFR, long range and Mexico Flying. I am used to steam gages....they are all old friends.
EBB

Really, you sure you want to do that? I know old habits die hard but I'm pretty sure I could fly my -12 just by looking out the window.
 
Really, you sure you want to do that? I know old habits die hard but I'm pretty sure I could fly my -12 just by looking out the window.

Plus many of the current EFIS offerings have a six pack screen. I've found that to be a great transition tool. One screen on six pack and the other on the standard tapes. Then transition as soon as you're comfortable with the new formats.
 
Fly with the SV for 30 minutes. You will never want to go back. Question on SLSA - Does written permission from Vans to - say add an altimeter -'mean that they are essentially approving an STC? Would they just have to write "Sure, do that" or provide detailed drawings of exactly how? Or could they just say "Sure, have it done by a certified mechanic following standard aircraft techniques per FAR XXXXX." Or is this such a new area that the answers are unknown?
 
It is a LOT of work rerouting the pitot and static lines up to the panel. The sensors for the SkyView's pitot and static lines are not usually installed in the panel.

As the others have said, fly with the SkyView, it is really intuitive.

(When I reworked my panel and installed the SkyView, I had to drill up the floor boards and rout the lines into the tail cone.)
 
It is a LOT of work rerouting the pitot and static lines up to the panel. The sensors for the SkyView's pitot and static lines are not usually installed in the panel.

As the others have said, fly with the SkyView, it is really intuitive.

(When I reworked my panel and installed the SkyView, I had to drill up the floor boards and rout the lines into the tail cone.)

Exactly! The Skyview pitot and static connections in an E-LSA or an S-LSA RV-12 are mounted way back in the upper tailcone. It would be a bear to do this after the fact, not to mention routing the tubing through the already quite full RV-12, center tunnel!
 
Fly with the SV for 30 minutes. You will never want to go back. Question on SLSA - Does written permission from Vans to - say add an altimeter -'mean that they are essentially approving an STC? Would they just have to write "Sure, do that" or provide detailed drawings of exactly how? Or could they just say "Sure, have it done by a certified mechanic following standard aircraft techniques per FAR XXXXX." Or is this such a new area that the answers are unknown?

There are no STC's for S-LSA. However, there is a formal process required and some manufacturers charge. In the end, you get an LOA (Letter of Approval) which could be aircraft specific or fleet wide.

Provided the manufacturer agrees with your request.
 
Bruce,

With a glass cockpit, for back-up instruments, take a look at the features of the Stratus II interface with the I-pad (requires Foreflight installed). Sporty's Pilot shop has an excellent presentation of both portable devices and should answer most of your questions.

Btw...we are back in SAN...see you soon.

Tom
 
Thanks guys. I guess I should have added that I am not interested in Steam gages because I like them but because they don't fail like glass cockpits are bound to.

I guess I'm stuck with electronics in an S-LSA. If I buy an E-LSA there will be steam gages in it.
EBB
 
Thanks guys. I guess I should have added that I am not interested in Steam gages because I like them but because they don't fail like glass cockpits are bound to.

I guess I'm stuck with electronics in an S-LSA. If I buy an E-LSA there will be steam gages in it.
EBB

You might not be "stuck" if you buy SLSA. Call or write Vans and ask what their policy will be on issuing LOA's. Their answer will, of course, depend on the magnitude of the request. If you want to hang an o-200 on the front, the answer will probably be no. A canopy lock should be approved, maybe even with a fleet approval. A couple of steam gauges? Who knows. The biggest problem with LOA's, I would guess, is that they are not going to want a whole bunch of various modifications for the fleet just to suite the multitude of desires of a diverse bunch of owners. And, each LOA, no matter how simple, takes time and money.
All you can do is ask. The above is just my opinion which is worth exactly what you are paying for it.

And, if you are flying as a light sport pilot, no night or IFR, you should be able to get it down with a dark panel. A portable GPS with a simulated 6 pack would seal the deal.
 
Lets be clear here for the folks not very familiar he with the -12. In a Skyview installation (not the original D180) The static PORTS are in the tail compartment and route directly to the ADAHRS sensor back there. Wires run from the ADAHRS to the front panel.

The PITOT runs from the prop, back through the panel then aft to the ADAHRS. So you do have PITOT in the panel you could easily tee off from.

The AOA as usually implemented (no Vans SLSA option for that I know of) can be run a variety of ways aft from the left wing root with a quick disconnect there. It goes to the ADAHRs. Many use 1/8 tubing that can be easily routed, even aft under the pilot seat area and under the baggage floor area, below the transverse flaperon tubes, and into the tail to the ADAHRS.

So to get pitot & static both to the panel you only need one line new static line, from the tail up to the panel. If you are building E-LSA you could put in in during the build while it is easy and connect it later, like an extra wire. I don't know if 1/8 tubing would be adequate compared to the normal larger size, perhaps it would for the backup purposes.

Seriously, after time with the SV and realizing it is a VFR plane you will likely dismiss the idea of steam gauge backup. I had many similar ideas since the prior several years before the RV-12 I was also flying a Bonanza IFR. If I was concerned about redundancy, I would spend it on a Garmin 496 or AERA as an independent GPS source. They have the Panel Page display as well.

Shoot - since you have pitot in the panel, why not take static as ambient from the aircraft interior? How off could it be for backup purposes? That would make a good experiment, no tubing run necessary.
 
Steam is easy

I have an early RV-12 with the D-180. After a total Dynon failure, a low fuel pressure alarm, and a friend with a total oil pressure indication failure, I added steam gauges. I had an altimeter, I bought a new UMA ASI with correct markings, and mechanical fuel and oil pressure gauges off Ebay. The latter 2 were also UMA, but new. The total cost was under $300, including the metal for a new right panel.

Have I needed them since, No! Did I have fun installing them, Yes! Would I do it again, Yes. In bright Calif sun, they are always easy to read. Dynon, not so good. There have been times that the Dynon seemed a bit optimistic, but the steam say they are right on.

A compass in Calif is not needed. The ocean is to the west, the Sierra Nevada mountains are to the east. North and south are not much more complicated. I do like knowing I have oil and fuel pressure. The ASI sometimes. If I had not had the altimeter I would not have bothered. But the bottom line, it was fun to install.

Just my 2 cents
 
back up guages

I believe most problems with speed and altimeters are related to static and pitot tubes and ports so just teeing off to back up gauges is not really giving you true redundancy To give a true back up system you could install extra static and pitot tubes I am thinking of installing the a of a in the wing which would leave the original pitot in the spinner available for a back up airspeed indicator
 
Tom:
I have a spare Garmin Area 796 that used to be in the Bonanza. I think I'll put that in the new RV12 as a backup. It's really not needed with the newest D1000 Skyview but it would provide GPS derived altitude and airspeed in a failure of the Skyview. Obviously I ain't gonna fly IFR so the backup is probably not needed.....I've been flying by the seat of the pants for years and years anyhow:).

EBB
 
I initially installed a backup altimeter and airspeed. I have since removed them and my backup is a Dynon D1 and an IPad.
Sure, no airspeed, but I can live with just GPS ground speed and a little common sense, plus the D1 even helps me to keep right side up if I get into a little haze or cloud..
 
I initially installed a backup altimeter and airspeed. I have since removed them and my backup is a Dynon D1 and an IPad.
Sure, no airspeed, but I can live with just GPS ground speed and a little common sense, plus the D1 even helps me to keep right side up if I get into a little haze or cloud..

Don,

Have you checked out the new D2?
Pretty good stuff. :)
 
Thanks guys. I guess I should have added that I am not interested in Steam gages because I like them but because they don't fail like glass cockpits are bound to.
EBB

Sure they do. All the time. They are mechanical devices with gears and wheels, like a pocket watch. Also, pitot/static tubes get contaminated, in which case a steam gauge or efis will stop working. So if you put in backup ASI and Alt hooked into the same pitot static lines, your reliability won't really improve. If your efis has a back up power source I bet it is statistically more reliable than an ASI, especially the cheapo Falcon ones.

There is a lot of prejudice out there, based on fear and superstition, but not hard data. "I feel more comfortable with X" doesn't mean X is safer.

Bottom line is, if you really want to be safe, learn to fly without ASI and Alt. It is not really that difficult. It was part of my initial training prior to solo. Personally I seem to land better without them. I guess I am more focused on visual cues. That extra half hour of training is cheaper than backup steam gauges.
 
If you really want a backup, put a Dynon Pocket Panel in the plane for your back up.

Since you are going to be flying as an LSA (day VFR), you should have no problem landing if the SkyView went dark.

If you add a backup handheld GPS to the Pocket Panel, then you can aviate and navigate but you still won't have engine instruments.

How much weight do you want to add in backup instruments?

The truth is, the SkyViews are amazingly reliable.
 
First thing I did after

Getting my airworthiness slip and flying 5 hours was to add steam airspeed and altimeter and a slip indicator. I used fittings from one of the common suppliers and put T's into the lines behind the panel. Took very little time and works like a charm. Thinking about a whiskey compass for the time when the D180 goes black.

Wayne 120241 458 hours
 
There seems to be a misconception here that an ELSA cannot be modified until phase I testing is completed. That is not the case, An ELSA can be modified immediately after certification. I know this is a minor point, but let's keep things clear.
 
Getting my airworthiness slip and flying 5 hours was to add steam airspeed and altimeter and a slip indicator. I used fittings from one of the common suppliers and put T's into the lines behind the panel. Took very little time and works like a charm. Thinking about a whiskey compass for the time when the D180 goes black.

Wayne 120241 458 hours

The going black part makes the steam gauges valuable as they do not rely on batteries or an alternator. Been flying on and off since 1963 on steam gauges, many times with the basic, needle ball and airspeed. No fancy digital gauges for the engine even on injected ones never had a problem.
Just my take on things, I would have basic ones like mentioned if I were to build again.
 
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