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Status: Brantel RV10 build

Brantel

Well Known Member
So it looks like I am gonna make a go at building an RV10. :)

That means I have to get my shop and tools back into build mode!

One of the tools that I said I would never build another airplane without was the DRDT-2. It is one of the best luxury tools anyone can own for building an aluminum airplane that uses flush rivets!

When I was building my 7, it was a struggle to fund the project and stay out of debt so I built my own DRDT-2 frame and purchased the front end kit from Paul Merems (creator and manufacturer of the DRDT-2) http://experimentalaero.com/

When I finished my 7, I regretfully sold my DRDT-2 to a fellow builder. Last I heard he finished his plane and he sold it to a third builder. Who knows how many planes that thing will help build over the years? (Sorry Paul!)

Fast forward to now and since I have decided to build again, I need to obtain or build another machine. Recently I put a WTB on the classifieds and originally planned to purchase a finished unit. At the same time I started trying to find the steel required to build the frame if I decided to go that route.

No used finished units turned up quickly. New units are available with a stiff shipping charge due to the weight. Steel prices are outrageous. Etc. All of this drives up the cost of this awesome tool.

So luckily I was able to source some steel wholesale thru my work and I was able to secure a front end kit second hand. (Sorry Paul!)

Yesterday my uncle and I set out to build another DRDT-2 frame.

I had used an horizontal band saw at work to cut the parts to length. It is absolutely necessary for some of the ends of the tubing to be perfectly square and perpendicular. Therefore for those parts and faces, I used a vertical milling machine to true up the parts.

Then it was on to the welding table. We don?t have a MIG welder so we stick welded them with low hydrogen rods. We TIG welded the top front ram mount faceplate to the top tube.

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It is absolutely critical that the frame be straight, square, perpendicular, and strong in all the right places. Anyone that welds will know that welding can pull your parts in all kinds of directions so it is necessary to clamp, clamp, clamp! Also you have to be mindful of the welds, heat, etc.

Clamps!

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More clamps!

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Even more clamps!

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So once the welding was done, I wanted it to look good so I put some filler in the right places and sanded it all smooth.

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And finally, degreased and painted the frame with Rustoleum Hammered Black.

Looks great!

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The front end kit should be here soon and when it shows up I will mount it up to the frame and be ready for dimpling.

Some notes:

There is a ton of work that goes into building this frame correctly. If the top front end ram mount face is not perpendicularly to the bottom beam, the dimples will be negatively impacted and poor quality. Paying close attention to the build will eliminate the need to shim the ram and or lower die holder later to get it all to run true. The high cost of steel, welding gear and consumables, paint and labor makes it hard for me to imagine how Paul sells his completed units for the price he does! Do yourself a favor and just pay the man and buy his ready made unit!

On my original years ago I used 1/4? wall tube when the plans only call for 3/16? because that is what I had on hand. I decided to build this one out of 1/4? as well because I learned to love the extra beef in the original. I am sure the 3/16? would be fine however.
 
I sold my original DRDT-2 when I sold my -10 thinking I was done. A year later I am back at it on a -9A and had to replace ALL my building tools I sold. I also decided to build my own DRDT-2 style dimpler. I sourced my steel pre cut to lengths needed from an on-line metal supply and the lever clamp off amazon. Machined my own adjustable die holder. Welded it up and painted it. Feeling very pleased with myself only spending $100 on materials. :). I kid you not, a week later I am at a garage sale in a rural community and there on the garage floor is a DRDT-2 machine. The guy says $5 will buy it..He even knew what it was! I like the one I built a little better because I made the throat 2? deeper so I sell the garage sale find to a fellow builder here on the forum.
 
Moral of the story....

Never sell a tool... unless it is to make space for a bigger better replacement :).
 
This thread is well-timed. I'm getting close enough to finishing my RV-14A that I'm thinking about what to do with/about tools. Bottom line - I'll find it very hard to part with them and can think of ways I might use them as an owner as opposed to a builder. Not to mention the risk of becoming a "repeat offender"...
 
Very true

Moral of the story....

Never sell a tool... unless it is to make space for a bigger better replacement :).

Needed to repair some ribs on my Champ project yesterday, out comes the right angle air drill, the pneumatic squeezer, the dimple die set, the rib flange tool, the flange shrinker tool, the hand cutting tools, the nibbler, the left over rivets, the clecos.

2 hours later ribs repaired and look as good an new :D

Who would have thought to keep all these tools to work on a tube and fabric aircraft.
Figs
 
I built this one much like you did yours. I had some 7x3x.250 steel laying around and used it. It should have less flex, so all good. I also drilled and tapped the face while I had it on the mill. Then powder coated in gas can red :)


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It is official....

I am now a RV10 builder. The order for the emp/tail cone has been sent to Vans!

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Brian, good for you! I'm wondering whether or not I should build something again also. I would build a 10, but I don't have that many friends! LOL looking forward to seeing your progress!

:cool: CJ
 
panel upgrade

Question: How so you upgrade your instrument panel?
Answer: Start with a new RV10 tail kit!!

Congrats, Brian. Can't wait to see your new panel! :cool:
 
Me too Don! :eek:

New drill bits and reamers, 3M deburing wheels for the die grinder, 3M PPS Accuspray paint gun kit and cups/spare nozzels, and AKZO ordered....

Man I forgot how expensive all the extra stuff you need to build is! :(
 
RV10

Brian - Wow!! I went the opposite direction when I built a second plane! I'm jealous - The 10 will be a great plane. Say... did I cause all this RV madness???

5 hours on the new engine - so far so good....
Rick George
 
Brian - Wow!! I went the opposite direction when I built a second plane! I'm jealous - The 10 will be a great plane. Say... did I cause all this RV madness???

5 hours on the new engine - so far so good....
Rick George

Yes you did!
 
Emp/tail cone kit is scheduled to arrive on Thursday.

Garage has been cleaned out and set back up as an airplane building shop!

Airplane building tools have been recovered from the hangar.

A million bucks have been spent on replenishing consumables and a few extra tools.

The build blog has been established and I am getting the hang of keeping it updated. (Link in signature)

Looking forward to getting started!

Here are a few things I want to address while building the tail while it is all wide open:
  • Pitch servo mount
  • Yaw damper servo mount
  • Rear air vent mods (NACA scoops)
  • Servo driven rudder trim tab of some sort? Maybe
  • Antenna provisions
  • Tail light provisions
  • Static ports

Anything else I should consider?
 
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A few early decisions

Emp/tail cone kit is scheduled to arrive on Thursday.

Here are a few things I want to address while building the tail while it is all wide open:
  • Pitch servo mount
  • Yaw damper servo mount
  • Rear air vent mods
  • Rudder trim? Maybe

Anything else I should consider?

The pitch and yaw servos are mounted at the front of the tail cone, just behind the baggage bulkhead. I installed those mounts in my RV-10 after attaching the tail cone to the fuselage, but before attaching the cabin top. There are a few rivets that get drilled out and replaced to attach the mounts, but not difficult to do if you have already installed them.

If by rear air vent mods you mean the installation of a NACA scoop in the side skin for ducting air to an overhead console, then it might be easiest to cut the NACA opening in the skin prior to attaching it? I'm not sure if it would be that much easier, as I elected to install an Air Conditioner, so didn't need the extra NACA scoop.

As for the rudder trim, that might depend on the type of trim you intend to install. If you want a servo driven trim tab, then that would probably be easiest to incorporate into the rudder while you are building it. However, you might take a look at the AeroSport Products rudder trim unit that gets connected to the rudder pedals behind the control panel. ( http://aerosportproducts.com/ruddertrim.htm )

The one additional item I wished I had installed before closing up the vertical stab is the VOR/ILS "cat whiskers" antenna that I installed at the top of the VS on my plane. I decided to install it after I had the VS complete, which made it harder to do. There are other types of antennas you can use, but I decided on the "cat whiskers", and wanted mine at the top of the VS rather than under the tail, in order to eliminate another eye hazard under the plane. In fact there is even an argument to be made that you no longer need a VOR/ILS with GPS navigation, but after discussion with a number of CFII and other hard core IFR pilots, I decided that I wanted the ability to do ILS approaches in IFR conditions, and so installed the antenna and purchased a GTN 650 (instead of the cheaper GTN 625).

Hope you enjoy your RV-10 project. I'm sure you will get lots of conflicting opinions/recommendations as you proceed. Just remember that there are multiple ways to build your project, with the right way being the one you choose. After all, that's what makes experimental building so much fun.;)

Cheers.
 
Emp/tail cone kit is scheduled to arrive on Thursday.

Garage has been cleaned out and set back up as an airplane building shop!

Airplane building tools have been recovered from the hangar.

A million bucks have been spent on replenishing consumables and a few extra tools.

The build blog has been established and I am getting the hang of keeping it updated. (Link in signature)

Looking forward to getting started!

Here are a few things I want to address while building the tail while it is all wide open:
  • Pitch servo mount
  • Yaw damper servo mount
  • Rear air vent mods (NACA scoops)
  • Servo driven rudder trim tab of some sort? Maybe
  • Antenna provisions
  • Tail light provisions

Anything else I should consider?

There really isn't much to do with the tail kit other than follow the plans.

If you haven't found Tim Olson's myrv10.com site yet, you may want to read this page.

https://www.myrv10.com/tips/gotchas.html


Some of these have been fixed in more recent versions of the kit, but it's still a good place to start.

The second place to look is aerosportproducts.com.

Just hand Geoff a blank check and order one of each. :D

All the items you've listed are pretty easy to do. I've got my nav antenna under the tail. If you want it on top, it's an easy mod to perform while you're working on the fiberglass.

The NACA vents are easy to do. You just have to do them before putting the last skin on top, which is way later in the fuselage assembly.

The servos are easy to put in like Don mentioned.

Personally, I wouldn't put in a servo driven rudder trim. I have the Aerosport Products unit and it works just fine. I started down that path and stopped about half way making all the mods. An access panel and some micro hide the remains of that work.

The tail light gets mounted in the fiberglass tail piece. Pretty straight forward as long as the light uses a tradition mount. I have an AeroLed tail light. No issues installing it what so ever.
 
Kit has arrived! Inventory Done! Let the fun begin!

So my emp/tailcone arrived yesterday. So I am 0 and 4 for no crate damage from ABF. I said I would never use them again back in the RV-7 build days but Barb at Van's told me that they are actually fairly low on the damage rates. My experience has been different but oh well...

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Had the crate delivered to my work where I have help to get it into the back of my truck and get a lower shipping rate since it is a commercial address.

So I rip into the crate (was not hard since ABF mostly opened it for me) and started looking for damaged parts.

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Believe it or not the only damage I could find was this side skin:

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I am not sure that damage was caused by ABF or Van's since it was on the side of the crate with no exterior damage.

No big deal though. I was able to use my sheet metal skills to slowly work out that dent and now you can't hardly tell it was ever there. No sense going thru all the pain and agony of dealing with getting a replacement for something that I can fix myself for nothing but a little time. The crate alone to ship a new one would cost Van's a ton not to mention the shipping. I am all about helping Van's keep their cost down which helps builders keep theirs down as well!

Huge testimony for the shipping guys at Vans. It is amazing how well they pack these kits to survive and not get damaged!

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So all those wrapped parts are sub kits of parts that explode into a million other parts. Amazing how Van's can nest these things!

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Paper paper and more paper! I filled up 3 huge trash bags full of paper!

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I modified the crate to store the skins. I need to keep space available so my wife can park her van in the garage. This was the best I could come up with.

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Almost every horizontal surface I can find is covered in parts! I am amazed at how many more parts there are with this kit vs the RV-7. I can start to see why it is so much more expensive.
 
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I am also amazed at how big everything is compared to the RV-7. I know it is a bigger airplane but geesh this stuff is big!

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After the inventory, all I found missing was these 2 elevator trim cable brackets. AMAZING! How the heck does Van's do that?

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Step one! Let the fun begin!

More pictures and commentary in my builder blog. Link in my signature. Check it out!
 
I went with third party trim brackets.

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When I was building there were a handful of failures. I assume by now Van's has solved that problem.

I think the billet aluminum pieces look nicer than a wielded nut.
 
I went with third party trim brackets.

2871062.jpg


When I was building there were a handful of failures. I assume by now Van's has solved that problem.

I think the billet aluminum pieces look nicer than a wielded nut.

Me too-------I was able to get single wing nut plates riveted to these, dimple the cover plate, counter sink the bracket and use flat head screws to mount. It makes it a lot easier to install/remove the trim cover when it all gets put together.
 
I went with third party trim brackets.

2871062.jpg


When I was building there were a handful of failures. I assume by now Van's has solved that problem.

I think the billet aluminum pieces look nicer than a wielded nut.

Me too-------I was able to get single wing nut plates riveted to these, dimple the cover plate, counter sink the bracket and use flat head screws to mount. It makes it a lot easier to install/remove the trim cover when it all gets put together.

I am on the fence about those. Seems now Van's has improved the welding of the nut to the plate. I was gonna wait and see what they look like before purchasing the aftermarket billet ones.

Regardless, I plan to install nutplates as I have read many reports that it makes it much easier to deal with down the road.
 
Hey Brian,
I am jealous.
I wanted to build a 10 before deciding it was too much for a first build. Money and time.
Building the RV-9 was a very big accomplishment in life but I am not sure I have it in me to do it again.
Have fun.
 
Mark,

Tonight I got into the groove and it felt great to be building again!

Page 6-2 is done!

I am really digging the new style (new to me anyway) instructions and plans. My how spoiled we have become!
 
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Brian,
If I were you, I would have asked Van's to send replacements for every part that was damaged. You aren't saving them any money by trying to work the damage out yourself; they simply collect from the shipping company. You might regret it later too if the damage is visible through the paint job.
Van's makes it VERY easy to replace parts damaged in shipping. Usually it is simply a matter of taking and emailing a few photos, and a phone call. They take it from there and ship you your new part(s), and then collect from the shipping company. You will usually have your new part(s) in less than a week. Frankly, I think this is part of their revenue model, that they get to sell more parts due to the ham-fisted way that these shippers treat their cargo.
You're investing a HUGE amount of labor and dollars into your project. If it were me, I'd insist on starting with pristine parts; not damaged and repaired.
 
Clay,

Thanks and normally I would do as you said. I had tons of damaged parts back on the RV7 build. This one however was just too easy to fix. I doubt anyone could even find it on the skin.
 
Back at it after the family vacation!

A few updates to my build blog have been posted. Ready to prime the vertical stabilizer parts tonight!
 
A few updates to my build blog have been posted. Ready to prime the vertical stabilizer parts tonight!

Hi Brian,
I noticed on your blog you mentioning your countersink depth of .012-.015" deeper than flush compared to Van's recommended of .007 deeper.

The .007 deeper is based on detailed analysis of riveted joints after sectioning them, polishing them, and inspecting under magnification.

The error that people make by working to a depth that allows the skin to lay 100% flush is that they forget that on the the cross section shape of the dimple has a small radius where the skin is reformed to make the dimple, but the machine counter sink has a sharp corner. It is the interference of this radius on the sharp corner that you are compensating for in order to get the skin to lay 100 % flush. Doing so results in a gap between the sides of the dimple and the countersink that is clearly visible in the sectioning tests I mentioned.

The finished appearance as far as how it looks on the exterior between the two countersink depths is indistinguishable, but the long term integrity could be compromised which is why Van's recommends no more than .007 deeper for dimples into countersinks.
 
VS done (less fairings)

The VS is done (less fairings) and I am on to the rudder!

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Lots more in my build blog!
 
Rudder is done! (Less Fairings)

So the rudder is done (less the fairings) and I am now working on the horizontal stabilizer.

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Lots of details in the build blog if you are bored!
 
Must be a thrill starting this project with all that experience! I am enjoying your progress!

It is a blessing and a curse. While for the most part all the old experience helps, there are a few times already where I have made an assumption that was wrong or the current recommendations on how to do something has changed. I am finding it is best to not assume anything and to read the directions even if I think I know where they are going with a task.
 
HS taking a while.....

In progress on the HS. This thing is taking a while! Tonight I match reamed over 940ea #40 holes!

Had a few distractions over the past couple weeks that is also slowing me down.

Check out the HS progress in my build blog.
 
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HS Done! (less fairings)

HS is done! (less fairings)

WHEW! that was as Jerry Clower would say: "A great big un!"

And I would say it was allot of work!

Lots of details in my build blog... if you are interested.

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Looks like we are neck and neck, I finished my HS last week and have my Elevators assembled for final drill. Looking Good!!
 
Not dead, just busy!

Still working on it!

I promise that you will see a pic of some finished elevators soon! :eek:

With work, holidays, business trips, visiting colleges, sickness and the other priorities, it seems to be taking forever to finish my elevators.

I am building both at once. I am now working on the trim tabs. The rest is done less the fairings. Hopefully you will see another pic of some finished parts soon!

So far the elevators have been the most time consuming and brain teasing part of the build. The way these go together requires some thinking to keep it all going together correctly. Add in the complexity of the riveted trailing edge, foam ribs/pro-seal and trim tabs on both sides makes these much more of a challenge than my RV-7's elevators.

Another thing I have noticed is that Van's has really cut back on the hardware provided with this kit compared to my 7. Seems like they sent enough hardware to build 2 airplanes (rivets, nutplates, pop-rivets) on my 7 but with this 10 I have been very short on a few rivet sizes and have had just enough of the pop rivets. They went from way too much to just enough and in some cases not enough. Somewhere in the middle would have been nice.... Good thing I have spare rivets on hand!

Check out my build blog for the details on my build. Over 8,100 page views so far! Thanks for looking!
 
Elevators done! (Less fairings)

And here they are. All done with the exception of the fairings. These things were the most time consuming so far. Some real brain teasers and tight spaces to work in. New to me construction techniques and the fact that it has two trim tabs made these much more challenging than the RV-7 elevators. Glad to finally get them done and move on to the anticipated TAIL CONE!

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So I managed to finish the tail feathers in a little under 200hrs. Not sure where that rates in the averages but I will take it.

All the details in my blog here.
 
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Update

Tail cone is almost all primed and ready for final assembly. Faxing the order for the wings in tomorrow.

I assume I should get the tank floats and aileron trim option. I do plan on leading edge lights so should I get Van’s kit or just buy the duck works mounts like I did for the RV-7. Either way I will be using an LED landing light source of some kind.

Edit: I see the Van’s kit is for the wing tips....

Pros and cons of wingtip vs leading edge? How about both? I love light and also love wig wag!
 
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I do plan on leading edge lights so should I get Van’s kit or just buy the duck works mounts like I did for the RV-7. Either way I will be using an LED landing light source of some kind.

Edit: I see the Van’s kit is for the wing tips....

I'm planning on using the FlyLEDs kit that puts all the lights in the tips. Less cutting. And it does wig-wag if your power panel doesn't.

https://flyleds.com/products/#!/The-Works-Wingtip-Lighting-Kit/p/105662651/category=0
 
I'm planning on using the FlyLEDs kit that puts all the lights in the tips. Less cutting. And it does wig-wag if your power panel doesn't.

https://flyleds.com/products/#!/The-Works-Wingtip-Lighting-Kit/p/105662651/category=0

I like those but I think I may have to go with with both. I don’t like the dark in the middle and the leading edge lights will help with that.

I like wingtip because they are more visible for wig wag at wider angles. My 7’s leading edge lights are not visible when off axis of the nose of the plane very far.
 
Source for these?

I went with third party trim brackets.

2871062.jpg


When I was building there were a handful of failures. I assume by now Van's has solved that problem.

I think the billet aluminum pieces look nicer than a wielded nut.

Where are these available?

Brian, for this LA dude, you sure are moving fast!

Thanks,
Mike
 
Pros and cons of wingtip vs leading edge? How about both? I love light and also love wig wag!

I had Duck Works kit with Corvette HID lights in the leading edge, and the factory bulbs out in the wing tip that I used as wig-wag lights.

I did not use the factory hardware to set the tip lights straight ahead, but instead mounted them on the slight angle that the wing tip has----figured it would give better viewing from the side.
 
Pros and cons of wingtip vs leading edge? How about both? I love light and also love wig wag!

I like the leading edge installation. It is flexible enough to allow you a lot of options going forward.

The wingtip installation really limits you from a size (and probably heat) perspective.
 
Pros and cons of wingtip vs leading edge? How about both? I love light and also love wig wag!

I'm just finishing up wings now, I put the Duckworks mounts in the leading edges and squadron pros in those mounts. Did some bench testing and they are insanely bright. Its not a cheap setup with the squadron pros about $200 a piece. I love light though, so in this guy's opinion - worth every penny.
 
I put in the duckworks leading lights with Squadron Pros as well. By the time I was ready to order the FlyLeds, Paul had released the works kit, so I went ahead and ordered those.
I'm sure there are worse problems to have and not sure I can have too much light. Worst case I'll wire them such that I can turn the wingtip and leading edge lights independently? Maybe too much light for taxi ops? Won't know till I'm further along. I will say I totally enjoyed building the FlyLed kits. Just like the Baja lights, these things are BRIGHT!
 
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