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Mounting ELT Antenna

garrett

Member
Trying to figure out where to mount the ELT antenna has absorbed a small percentage of brain power for quite a while, now, and I think that I've come up with something that's at least a little bit clever.

I don't know if anyone else has stumbled upon this, so I thought I'd share. Here's a picture:

4.jpg


Or if you want more of a writeup, click here:

http://www.golfsierra.org/9nov06/9nov06.html#elt
 
Garrett:

I was thinking of doing the same exact thing, except I was thinking of putting it a little closer to the center channel and using some sort of insulated stand-off to attach it to the center channel.

Good job.
 
If and when you auger that bad boy in, the tail will most likely be high and or most likely undamaged. This location uses no useable space and is not visible under the intersection fairing.

-Jeff

FUSELAGE%20147.jpg
 
Remember guys, the ELT is one of the TSO'd pieces of equipment and as such MUST be installed per the manufacturers installation proceedures. Most ELT installations say the antenna must be within 20 degrees of vertical.
 
Why bother installing the elt antenna at all. These last ideas for location will not work worth a hoot. If you never crash it won't matter, if you do the radiation pattern and range will be next to useless. If you think these are good locations then you need to mount your com antennae there also, after all they have many watts of power and the elt only has a few milliwatts.
 
Mel, Norman ... Give this guys a break...

They are planing on hitting the ground vertically, so that there antennae will be aimed just right. :eek:

Me, I mounted mine vertically so that it will work correctly when I bring it in flat.

See you all on 121.5 (I hope not.) :eek:

Kent
 
Mel said:
Remember guys, the ELT is one of the TSO'd pieces of equipment and as such MUST be installed per the manufacturers installation proceedures. Most ELT installations say the antenna must be within 20 degrees of vertical.

Mel:

Just curious...what are the other TSO'd items?

Jamie
 
kentb said:
They are planing on hitting the ground vertically, so that there antennae will be aimed just right. :eek:

Me, I mounted mine vertically so that it will work correctly when I bring it in flat.

See you all on 121.5 (I hope not.) :eek:

Kent

When you try to grease that landing in the corn feilds of Texas, you can bet your sweet bippy the final rest position will be flat on its back just after the infamous RV ground loop. :eek: :eek: :eek: I dont think any previously shown installation will work very well for transmission at that point. Seriously though, we can only hope our situation won't even warrant the use of the darn thing.

-Jeff
 
There are good reasons to mount the antenna vertical. For one, it's so when you crash land or hopefully make a decent forced landing that the antenna stays connected to the antenna cable and the ELT and that it is somewhat vertical. Oh...and another reason, so when one of my counterparts or I goes looking for your butt with our antiquated DF equipment both from the air and on the ground that we can actually find you.....alive!

On my plane it's getting mounted on the outside top in front of the vertical stabilizer. Doesn't look great but it will work when it is needed. I have chased enough of these things to know what works.

One more thing to consider. When your ELT is going off accidently while parked which is extreamly common and one of my counterparts or I get a 3AM call from the AFRCC to find it, you won't have to worry about the police department being dispached to watch as your aircraft is opened up to turn off your ELT. It is much easier to cover the antenna when on the outside and let you mosey on over in the morning or after work to turn off your own ELT. It is illegal to transmit on the emergency frequency when it is not an emergency.
 
RV-7 Location

Try this location. No comments, I "ain't movin it":) I just so happened to fabricate this last night. It is 3" x 3". I'll make two little arms to go from the front of the shelf and rivet them to the flanges of the upright.

http://rvflying.tripod.com/elt.jpg
 
Baggage

Mornin' guys,
The ELT can't transmit through the aluminum turtledeck nor when it's horizontally mounted. This is another easy solution and you can easily remove the antenna and attach it to the ELT after you get out and start walking..... :D

my.php
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Regards,
 
pierre smith said:
Mornin' guys,
The ELT can't transmit through the aluminum turtledeck nor when it's horizontally mounted. This is another easy solution and you can easily remove the antenna and attach it to the ELT after you get out and start walking..... :D

my.php
[/URL][/IMG]
Regards,
I had an ELT that was on in my hangar all steel and door closed CAP showed up at 5:30 in the morning, had me remove the battery. I have seen several mounted horizontally under the fiberglass fairing in the tail they work just fine.
 
N184JG said:
I have seen several mounted horizontally under the fiberglass fairing in the tail they work just fine.

One of the evil tricks we do when practicing with experinced Ground Team Members is to place our practice beacons in or on a metal structure and leave the antenna horizontal. THEY ARE NOT EASY TO FIND!

ELT's in hangers are reletively easy to locate on the ground, I do not know why. Planes on the ramp around many other planes are more difficult.

ELT hunting from a plane is much more difficult because you are moving at 90kts. When passing directly overhead you will usually get a null from the radiation pattern. If the antenna is horizontal, there is no null over top of it. The range is also much less so the aircraft must be right in the area to pick it up.

It's amazing how inacurrate the Lat/Longs given to us from AFRCC can be. I have had points given to me that covered 80 sq miles. That's a lot to cover.

Just a note for everyone and kinda off topic, keep your cell phones on when you fly. We had a very large search earlier this year in Western MD that ended up being 5 days in mountainous terrain. It encompassed the MD, WV, and PA Wings. The ELT never activated (which also happens often in crashes). The only way we were able to pinpoint the area to search was because the pilots cell phone was on and the cell company was able to triangulate the area from his phone. Unfortunately, because everyone was calling the overdue pilot his battery died quickly but there was enough info to help locate the general area.

The plane was not able to be seen from the air even by a State Police helicopter hovering right over it because of the wooded terrain. It ended up being found by a ground team.
 
My reading on this subject suggests the following:

(1) The recommended antenna location in front of the vertical stabilizer is based on perceived structural integrity at that point - i.e., it is less likely to be broken off in a crash, rather than any demonstrated superiority in signal transmission.

(2) While better than nothing I suppose, 121.5 ELTs have a DISMAL success/failure rate.

(3) The 406 MHz ELTs are vastly superior with respect to locating the crash site. A basic 121.5/406 ELT will set you back appx. $1K. You can optionally upgrade to a 406 ELT that transmits GPS coordinates. THis is substantailly more $, but hard to argue the benefit.

(4) The 406 ELTs are currently scheduled to be REQUIRED equipment within a couple of years.

Based on the above, it just doesnt make sense to me to install anything other than a 406-capable unit at this point.

regards,

erich weaver
 
Too many $$$$

erich weaver said:
Based on the above, it just doesnt make sense to me to install anything other than a 406-capable unit at this point.

You're talking about 15x cost for a GPS-enabled 406 ELT and the only vendor I see at the moment is Artex. I talked to a couple ELT vendors and most have 406 ELTs in the works and GPS-enabled units will be available from them soon after the basic units hit the market. You'll soon see prices on these come WAY down and everyone can benefit from them.

Until that happens ... an old C91a unit is the best choice if you're on a budget. If you want GPS-enhanced 406 MHz capabilities get a backup EPIRB with GPS and turn it on after you crawl out of the aircraft (or just before you hit the ground). You'll have all the requirements met and the benefits for under $1k.

This is where I ended up after obsessing on this for too long. :eek:

-Rick
 
Other ELT brands and options

Is any one familiar with the EBC line of ELTs? The EBC-102A is a bit pricier ($357 @ Spruce)than the AK-450, but it looks like a simpler installation. http://emergencybeaconcorp.com/transmitters/ebc_102a.htm

Also, if you want a less expensive 406 alternative, there are the PLB's like the Aquafix 406 models from ACR (about $550) available from marine store like West Marine.
 
Rick_A said:
Is any one familiar with the EBC line of ELTs?

Do the EBC's support external antennas? It looks like you have the mount the thing so that the whip antenna will be next to the canopy Not impossible in an RV but it limits your options. Plus, they're pretty expensive for TSO-C91a units.

-Rick
 
In 35 years of avionics work; mounting the ELT antenna inside the fuselage behind the baggage bulk head, completely enclosing it in a aluminium enclosure is one of the most assinine things I have seen. As Mel says the antenna must be mounted as per the manufactures specifications to remain TSO'd.
Mount it outside where it belongs. It may save your life someday. You won't be able to measure the loss in speed or climb performance. The FAA or in Canada Transport Canada would have a good reason to ground the aircraft.
There that's off my chest.
 
I'm assinine

Norman CYYJ said:
In 35 years of avionics work; mounting the ELT antenna inside the fuselage behind the baggage bulk head, completely enclosing it in a aluminium enclosure is one of the most assinine things I have seen.


Well, Norman, in my best good guy attitude I admit my assinine guilt. I just looked through my ELT installation instructions. Nowhere in there does it say to mount the antenna outside. Hum. It doesn't go off in all accidents. Hum. What are the chances the airplane stays upright within 20 degrees of horizontal. Hum. What a waste of good money. CAP gets (occasionally) a location within 80 square miles............think I'll leave the cell phone on and use my handheld radio. It stays inside the fuse, works like a charm.
 
Better 80 sq mi than not picking up your signal at all or not finding you before you die in a crash because it took twice as long to find you.

I mentioned the 80 sq mi because of the extremes that can be encountered when the SARSAT sends coordinates. It is not usually like that. Why make it worse?

An earlier poster said it well, if your so sure that your ELT antenna will work with only a few milliwatts of output from inside the fuselage, why not mount your comm antennas in there too? They put out a few watts and you won't have those awfull things hanging in the wind and messing up your sleek lines. I am all for a great looking airplane but there is a practical side to it as well.

I don't understand this mentality that your life is worth a bad antenna location.

I can do some testing in a few months on different locations in and on the plane once mine is moving using a practice beacon. Anyone interested in the results?
 
man lots of flack flying here

who cares where you mount it, if you auger it in their just coming to recover the bits and pieces of plane and body's. and either way it'll take them a day or three to find it because you were inadvertant imc and the conditions to search suck. if you make a good landing then you dont need it because you called for help before you went down, right? ELT's on GA are a joke :rolleyes: yes the cap can hurry to save the salvage company's salvage. you'll either be dead or left the scene long before they get there.
 
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How do you figure cytoxin?

It sounds like you think that there are only two ways to crash a plane. Lawn dart (dead) or off runway (no injury).
I think that most crashes are in between these two cases. When you go down and have an injury it is important to get medical help fast. There have been a lot of people that survived the crash, but died later due to lack of help.
The ELT is not a sure way to get rescued, but is better then nothing.

Kent
 
better than nothing

kentb said:
It sounds like you think that there are only two ways to crash a plane. Lawn dart (dead) or off runway (no injury).
I think that most crashes are in between these two cases. When you go down and have an injury it is important to get medical help fast. There have been a lot of people that survived the crash, but died later due to lack of help.
The ELT is not a sure way to get rescued, but is better then nothing.

Kent
you are absolutely correct.

of all the crash stuff i have read (way too much) the folks are either seen crashing or crash so far away from help its useless. the elt imho is only good for larger planes. i just dont see the effectiveness of them. cadillac even has a better elt system than most planes.
 
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Much better - that one can radiate out through the plexi canopy. Having studied antenna theory for quite some time, some of these other installation sites just leave me shaking my head.
 
BlackRV7 said:
Well, Norman, in my best good guy attitude I admit my assinine guilt. I just looked through my ELT installation instructions. Nowhere in there does it say to mount the antenna outside. Hum. It doesn't go off in all accidents. Hum. What are the chances the airplane stays upright within 20 degrees of horizontal. Hum. What a waste of good money. CAP gets (occasionally) a location within 80 square miles............think I'll leave the cell phone on and use my handheld radio. It stays inside the fuse, works like a charm.


Why even bother at all! Just get a flare gun and mirror!
 
And there is another consideration...

cytoxin said:
you are absolutely correct.

of all the crash stuff i have read (way too much) the folks are either seen crashing or crash so far away from help its useless. the elt imho is only good for larger planes. i just dont see the effectiveness of them. cadillac even has a better elt system than most planes.

Locating the crash is not only for the people on board. It is always nice for your faimily have something to bury.

I was on a CAP find crew on the third day when we found one gentleman wreckage. The ELT only work for a short time after the crash, so we had a large wooded area to search visually. I didn't talk to the family after the find, but I am sure that they were glad to have the body found.

Kent
 
again you are correct

but i tell you, i have eye wittness accounts of some crashes that the familys would have rather not known about and too graphic to share here. i still feel the same.
only when they have gps will they be worth a **** and until then i will have a less then perfect elt ant. installation.
they are antequated technology and leave alot to be desired.the improper mounting of the antenna is trivial, who knows how it will come to rest. i can tell you mine will not transmit through the skin but will probally mimic some of those seen here. quite a few decent ideas.
 
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Upside down?

Despite having only 100ish hours total now, I've already had the unfortunate experience of engine failure as a solo studen -- landed in a plowed field and ground looped after a 250' roll when the nose wheel dug in the mud. :( Since I had made a mayday call with my location before landing and walked away uninjured, the ELT wasn't a factor, but my question is how well will a properly mounted antenna (like the one on the top of the C15o's fuselage) actually transmit if the plane is upside down?

bill
RV7A, emp almost done, QB ordered
 
Spindrift said:
how well will a properly mounted antenna (like the one on the top of the C15o's fuselage) actually transmit if the plane is upside down?

Glad you walked away from the forced landing. Figure it will work as well as if the antenna were mounted on the bottom of the fuselage and you didn't flip over which is a lot better than having the antenna inside the fuselage.
 
cytoxin said:
only when they have gps will they be worth a **** and until then i will have a less then perfect elt ant. installation.

Ok...so go get one. The sooner everyone switches to a 406 the better. You have no argument from me that they work a lot better and are much more accurate. The best part is that when your ELT goes off by accident, the AFRCC will call you at 3AM and not me.
 
3 am again huh

Capflyer said:
Ok...so go get one. The sooner everyone switches to a 406 the better. You have no argument from me that they work a lot better and are much more accurate. The best part is that when your ELT goes off by accident, the AFRCC will call you at 3AM and not me.

so if you are getting the call at 3 am that just tells me what ived already concluded.. the CAP is working for the insurance industry :D just kidding


so if i mount my antenna on the outside it wont go off at 3 am in the morning? and why does it take all night for them to call you. ive most likely walked home by now or the FAA report turned fatal.


not to be disrespectful (because i appreciate the CAP and their contribution to aviation search and rescue) but if it bothers you that much to get out of bed, maybe you should take a less active roll in the CAP. you dont know if its a legit call or not when you recieve it and now i have visions of a mad man rushing through motions to come save me and maybe hurt himself or others in the process.. its about elt ant. locations and with the current required equipment and the variables involved, anywhere but inside the skin is probaly fine. it is a coin toss. dont worry, you'll soon be getting more sleep when uncle FAA makes us have the coveted 406

jeff fortunately for you the EPA has removed lead from epoxy primers so maybe yours will still radiate some. neat install BTW may be another idea i steal from you :cool:
 
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Capflyer said:
Glad you walked away from the forced landing. Figure it will work as well as if the antenna were mounted on the bottom of the fuselage and you didn't flip over which is a lot better than having the antenna inside the fuselage.

This doesn't make sense. If the plane crashes right side up, the gear will likely collapse and squash a belly mounted antenna under the plane. So now the antenna is horizontal, mangled, possibly disconnected and sandwiched between dirt and several layers of aluminum. If the antenna is on top and the plane flips, the situation is exactly the same. How are these scenarios better than having it protected inside? I think I'd like to see some hard data on ELT rescues before forming an opinion.
 
Approved data

BlackRV7 said:
Well, Norman, in my best good guy attitude I admit my assinine guilt. I just looked through my ELT installation instructions. Nowhere in there does it say to mount the antenna outside. Hum. It doesn't go off in all accidents. Hum. What are the chances the airplane stays upright within 20 degrees of horizontal. Hum. What a waste of good money. CAP gets (occasionally) a location within 80 square miles............think I'll leave the cell phone on and use my handheld radio. It stays inside the fuse, works like a charm.


Hi Dana.... these installation instructions may not say "outside", but they do say the antenna has to be within 15 degrees of vertical (page 23)

http://www.artex.net/documents/570-1015RevG.pdf

Ameri-King is a bit more explicit, and states that the antenna must be external to meet the requirements of TSO 91a and FAR 91.52 (page 9). They also give a vertical requirement of 20 degrees to vertical (in normal flight attitude for you acro guys... :) ....)

http://www.ameri-king.com/pdf/9.1.22.pdf

ACK is a bit different, allowing up to 45 degrees from vertical, but only allowing internal antenna mounting in a composite or fabric plane. It does actually say externally for metallic aeroplanes. (page 4)

http://www.ackavionics.com/images/Model_e-01_ELT_Manual.pdf

Most of the pictures so far don't come close to these manufacturer's instructions, which are required as part of the "approved" data that our ELTs must meet per the FARs... :rolleyes:

Anyone got any other approved installation manuals that say something different?

gil in Tucson

PS ... I like the cell phone ON idea.... I usually do it just because I forget to switch it off when I put it in my flight bag... :)
 
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I couldn't agree more with NormanYYJ on this issue. Mounting an ELT antennae INSIDE is just idiocy. Do you REALLY want the odds stacked against you in an accident? The question of survivability is as much a function of aircraft design as it is of pilot skill. Vans has designed a fine aircraft, so I will have to assume that you will fold your arms when something - anything - goes wrong. If that's the case, I don't want to fly with you or even near you.

Tell you what - go ahead and mount your antennae inside the fusilage. IF the DAR approves the installation, we WILL be discussing your contribution to the Darwin Awards at some future juncture..."You won't believe how stupid the guy was - pulled off an FLWOP and couldn't get out of the airplane. Froze to death because the CAP couldn't get his ELT - the fool had mounted it inside the fuse..."
 
Gil, the ACK says the external antenna must be used. The next sentence says the remote antenna is not for use other than when the unit is removed for portable use. I chose to read that as for mounted use the external antenna must be used. I will grant you there are antenna wizz bang experts and CAP volunteers (thanks gang) who feel very stongly about this issue. I however, am not one. I feel this piece of "technology" is overated, antiquated. As one poster stated, don't know if he was kidding or not, why don't I use a flare gun and mirror. Sounds good too me. Another stated he has done a lot of research in antenna but is merely saving for a 9A QB, but offered no other solution. Maybe because he didn't have knowledge of the 7/9 fuse. The reason I posted my obviously assinine (other good word) location was the first pic showed the antenna horizontal, another showed in in the tailcone horizontal, at least my terrible location was vertical. Yes, I'd be willing to bet my life, if I turned the orange box on this morning inside the fuselage, I'd have CAP here in, what 10 hours, 12 hours, it's still windy here so maybe 2 days. This is not a knock at all on CAP, just this little box. OK, another post said if you are so sure about this location working why don't I mount the COM antenna in the same location. My opinion only, the COM antenna will get used for something useful. No other comment needed on my part. Back to the cell phone, I carry with me a cell phone hand crank charger. If I go down in rugged country and the airplane.........rolls on it's side thereby making the antenna horizontal.....inside the fuse........OH MY (truly smiling here), at least I should be able to slide my canopy and get my cell phone. Case in point, at my flyin last year we had an incident where I am certain the ELT went off. After running down the runway to check on the pilot and passenger, I see the pilot get out, with cell phone in hand, and call his wife. Now, here was probably 20 pilots around this guy. Did even one, say turn off the ELT? No. That is how of minimal importance I see this unit. Once again, only one opinion here. We spent the rest of the day taking this airplane apart and loading it in a truck. Did we get any visitors? No. Now, the pilot may have reset it, I don't know for sure, but I sure didn't see, hear or anything otherwise any reference to an ELT. I just read an account on a CAP site where the ELT went off until the batteries went dead. The female pilot counted how many times an aircraft flew over. Maybe she had it mounted inside the fuse. That flare gun in jest comment, is sounding better all except for that exploding projectile inside the fuse. Here is another point, ACK also says the box must be mounted in a forward facing direction on a structural part of the aircraft. The skin is not an acceptable mounting location. Find a flat, structural part of this fuselage, other than the tail cone plate. No the baggage floor is not, per the instructions, an acceptable location, once again in my opinion (totally worthless in this thread). I thinking the only official configuration is to fabricate some sort of plate to fit over the second fuse bulkhead behind the baggage cover bulkhead. You can't use the baggage bulkhead because of the bellcrank. Then tie it to bottom bellcrank flange somehow, or maybe a triangle going over the second bulkhead with the tip centered over the bellcrank flange. Now add that weight and a box full of batteries way the heck aft. I don't know, that is quite obvious.

Location, location, location. Outside, so when you fly through the trees, it'll get ripped off before impact, lawn dart in so your horizontal antenna is now vertical.......even though you were vertical and now permanently horizontal (like that one:), pancake in with your internal antenna and get on the cell phone.....or pull your airplane chute, call on your cell phone on the way down, remove the orange box because you handily mounted it for optimal safety use at your feet (on a plate, not skin of course), turn off all electrical equipment, open canopy slightly..............only to land in a frickin lake with alligators........now why didn't I pack a raft?

I know long rant, but we have to have the dang things, so we have to put them in................like my parents and myself has said.........BECAUSE I SAID SO, THAT'S WHY!!!!!!!

Boy this post didn't solve anything did it.

By the way, you CAP flyers, thank you. I mean that.



az_gila said:
Ameri-King is a bit more explicit, and states that the antenna must be external to meet the requirements of TSO 91a and FAR 91.52 (page 9). They also give a vertical requirement of 20 degrees to vertical (in normal flight attitude for you acro guys... :) ....)

http://www.ameri-king.com/pdf/9.1.22.pdf

ACK is a bit different, allowing up to 45 degrees from vertical, but only allowing internal antenna mounting in a composite or fabric plane. It does actually say externally for metallic aeroplanes. (page 4)

http://www.ackavionics.com/images/Model_e-01_ELT_Manual.pdf


gil in Tucson

PS ... I like the cell phone ON idea.... I usually do it just because I forget to switch it off when I put it in my flight bag... :)
 
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Perspective

I flew Search and Rescue helicopters for law enforcement for years. I had the opportunity to be first on the scene of a few aircraft accidents. I can only remember ONE accident (including all of the units flights) where we found the aircraft based on ELT signal. And, it didn't matter.

For RV's it seems the majority of problems occur on landing with flip over being more common than not. Why not mount the antenna vertical DOWN?

From my experience of seeing many aircraft accidents, a tail mounted unit and antenna has the best opportunity for survival and activation. Other than that if there is a serious accident the antenna will most likely become exposed.
 
Interpretations.... and DAR sign off...

Dana... interesting interpretation of which ACK antenna is which.... :)

model_e01.jpg


I believe the "remote" antenna is the one that is shown clipped on the side... but that's just my interpretation... :)

You are correct that it may be somewhat useless, but it is mandated by the FARs that we must live by.

Our ELTs must meet the standards of TSO 91a

FAR 91.207
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part91-207-FAR.shtml

The FAR calls for "approved" ELTs, and the TSO 91a defines the approval.

I'd be interested to hear what the DARs on this list do for these installations with antenna locations that do not meet he manufacturer's installation instructions. Do they regard these as "approved" installations (because the builder/manufacturer said so, in spite of the TSO and ELT maker's FAA aproved instructructions), or do they just say "it's up the builder to follow the regulations"?.... :confused:

gil in Tucson
 
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Ok, I'm sure that for every picture like this someone could come up with something else but take a look and study this picture. See which part of the aircraft is most intact and what parts are not. This is the aircraft that we searched for that I spoke about in my earlier post. Assume that the ELT had activated. We would have found the plane within a few hours. If the antenna was in the tail horizontally or in the fuselage the effect would have been the same as the ELT not activating. We are waiting to see the final NTSB report but it is possible that the aircraft did not have over a 5g impact to set it off.

n7604gjp3.jpg


We dealt with the family (whom we knew, the pilot was a clubmate) for days. The pilot's sons were at mission base each day and were allowed to join a ground team. Think about the anguish the entire family went through for 5 days. The pilot died on impact but we didn't know that until we found the crash. What if he was alive for a 2 days strapped in his seat?

How does this relate to the aruguments presented by everyone so far? Very simple, use every tool you have available to make finding you as easy as possible. Granted an ELT may not save your life but finding you is very important for a multitude of reasons.

The argument as whether an ELT is necessary is moot because it's already been mandated by law and it's placement is also mandated by the manufacturers instructions. Complain about it all you care to but it doesn't take away the fact that you still need to have it. Heck, I love to speed down the highway at 80 mph and can justify it many ways but it's still not legal. I would love to fly in minimums....it's legal but is it safe. Slider or Tip-up, Pimer or Not, this is a different disagreement that has a mandated answer.

Thanks to you guys on both sides of this that appreciate what the CAP does. We do it from our hearts because we care about our community and helping others.
 
Capflyer said:
Ok, I'm sure that for every picture like this someone could come up with something else ....use every tool you have available to make finding you as easy as possible.

Both true. If you really think about it, we should all be required to paint our planes day-glo orange. This would probably do more to aid rescue than a dozen smashed up ELTs.
 
Tell you what - go ahead and mount your antennae inside the fusilage. IF the DAR approves the installation, we WILL be discussing your contribution to the Darwin Awards at some future juncture..."You won't believe how stupid the guy was - pulled off an FLWOP and couldn't get out of the airplane. Froze to death because the CAP couldn't get his ELT - the fool had mounted it inside the fuse..."


The Darwinian reference (and the assertion a deadly crash will occur) wasn't a very good way to make friends with the RV-3 pilots......the FARs don't require them to have an ELT. ;)

Matter of fact, it sounds like the position taken is stating that all of us are going to end up in a crash........ :(

Seriously, this is a subject where all of us as adults need to use some common sense and assume that each of us is smart enough to evaluate the risks inherent in our pursuit of aviation and our comfort level with those risks. Calling each other idiots is probably not the most productive way to extend this discussion.

I would not hesitate to fly a beautifully-crafted RV regardless of the location of its ELT antenna.
 
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szicree said:
Both true. If you really think about it, we should all be required to paint our planes day-glo orange. This would probably do more to aid rescue than a dozen smashed up ELTs.

Whoooaa there Steve. Let's not give the FAA any ideas.
:D
 
go tigers

szicree said:
Both true. If you really think about it, we should all be required to paint our planes day-glo orange. This would probably do more to aid rescue than a dozen smashed up ELTs.

this would work well for clemson fans :D
 
So you reckon carrying a cell phone will cut it in an emergency?

Here's a map of cell coverage in the continental USA.

CelCoverage-USA-T-Mobile.jpg


The yellow areas are no coverage - that's about 70% of the map.

Here's Canada:

canada.gif


85% not covered.

A lot of the guys I fly with have instructed on contract in the Middle East. When the brown smelly stuff hits the fan, it's not unusual for the (middle eastern) student to fold his arms and say inshallah (If God Wills It). Funny, I never thought I would see it on these boards.
 
ELT Usefulness

My partime job is with the Air Force Reserves working as a SAR coordinator for the Pacific theater at Hickam AFB, Hawaii. We coordinate military and civilian SAR operations with the US Coast Guard, CAP, US military, and foreign civil SAR agencies.

Primarily the 121.5/243.0 ELT signal we get here is from the SARSAT. We (or the USCG) get a satellite pass about 1-2 times per hour for a resolved beacon hit. Yes, they move around and the position uncertainty I've seen can vary 5-20 miles from each hit, but remember this is just the starting point for SAR forces. The Coast Guard waits for 3 "resolved" hits before calling us for help, which means the CAP or a military asset to DF the signal. The CAP is pretty good here in Hawaii and usually locate the ELT in a few hours. The procedure is probably similar in your area. I agree it's an antiquidated system but is does have some utility.

In summation: Use every tool in your toolbox. ELT can reach a receiver in remote terrain where the cel phone towers don't exist or the signals is blocked. I agree with all on the use of mature judment in assessing your risks of flying--don't forget your passengers, too. We fly my RV-6 around here with the life vest on and a fully stocked survival vest (yes-smoke and mirrors and more). Sorry for the long post.
Greg
 
Sam Buchanan said:
The Darwinian reference (and the assertion a deadly crash will occur) wasn't a very good way to make friends with the RV-3 pilots......the FARs don't require them to have an ELT. ;)

Matter of fact, it sounds like the position taken is stating that all of us are going to end up in a crash........ :(

Seriously, this is a subject where all of us as adults need to use some common sense and assume that each of us is smart enough to evaluate the risks inherent in our pursuit of aviation and our comfort level with those risks. Calling each other idiots is probably not the most productive way to extend this discussion.

I would not hesitate to fly a beautifully-crafted RV regardless of the location of its ELT antenna.

I would not! I reason that if the builder didn't follow instructions installing ELT equipment designed by enginers/manufacturers they probably skimped or failed to properly follow work instructions in the construction in other areas of their aircraft... Some or one of the areas could be critical... Pretty paint can hide a turd but it can't take the smell out...
 
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