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Wire terminations

unitink72

Well Known Member
One thing I'm not too keen on is people using vinyl clad crimp connectors in aircraft. They don't offer great strain relief. I prefer non-insulated ones, solder or crimp and then slide a long piece of double wall, glue infused heat shrink over the joint. Time consuming and a PITA to do in many locations and cases but WAY better strain relief, corrosion protection and retention qualities. See the photos below:




Brought this out from another thread. This makes a lot of sense to me. Where do you get these terminals, and the heat shrink tube? Do you need a different crimper than the one usually used for PIDG terminals?
 
The PIDC terminals have proven to be very reliable, particularly over soldered terminals. There is not really a need to use the uninsulated terminals and heat-shrink. And don't solder them unless you know what you are doing, otherwise you will be far worse off.

Thant said, you can get the heat-shrink at Frys, Harbor freight, online, lots of places. For the terminals, order quality parts from an electronics vendor like digikey, mouser, stein, ACS.
 
Minor correction; it's PIDG, not PIDC.

http://www.te.com/usa-en/products/terminals-splices/intersection/pidg-terminals-splices.html?tab=pgp-story

The real PIDG has nylon insulation, which I believe is higher temp than vinyl. But firewall back, that really isn't an issue. (To head off the naysayers, *ALL* wire insulations omit noxious gasses if they get hot enough. Fuses/breakers prevent the wire overheating, and if the fire's already there and big enough to ignite wire insulation, you've got more pressing issues than wire insulation.)

Be aware that 'one and done' crimpers are not symmetrical; there's only one proper way to insert the terminal (though it will fit either way). Properly oriented, the insulation grip area gets slightly less crimp than the wire.

As others have said, solder and crimp are equally effective if done properly, and both need strain relief. PIDG has it built in; the bare terminals must have something added, whether crimped or soldered. Crimps were designed for production, where any meat sack is forced to make a proper crimp to get the tool off the work, and get it done fast. Solder takes a bit more skill & time, but costs a lot less money.

"You pays your money and you takes your choice."
 
I've been using and very happy with this heat shrink available online at reasonable cost. It is heavy duty and seals the connection. Getting it back off, on the other hand, is not so easy, which is means it seals very well.

You can get cheap stuff that is very thin (think HF) but you'll have to double it up, IMO.

Get it black or read and various sizes. Comes in 4' lengths.

I like AMP connectors/terminals for most jobs.
 
Was taught not to solder...

The reason was when soldering the solder will wick a small way up the wire and cause a rigid connection. The aviation grade wire has multiple strands for flexibility. Of course those were F4 Phantoms I was working on.


Paul
 
Sigh...

We were taught to not go lean of peak on Lycs, too.

Look at that pic of the crimped connector before the shrink wrap is applied. Think there's no stress riser there?

Attachment method matters not. What does matter is supporting the wire beyond the stress riser point.

Sorry, but this solder/crimp thing just seems to be a bigger thing than primer wars, sometimes.

Charlie
No Holiday Inns recently, but a couple of past lives as an electronics tech.
 
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I agree that there is nothing wrong with a properly soldered, heat-shrinked and supported wire.

However, I can make a good solid crimped connection in about 2 seconds vs about 2 minutes or more to do a solder connection. If I was wiring your aircraft and getting paid by the hour which method would you want me to use :D

I'm pretty sure crimp connections were invented so the production world could save time.
 
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Walt,
I agree. Please look back at what I wrote in post #3. I guess I should have completed the sentence with 'for parts and tools.'
 
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PIDG

It looks like usage of the PIDG terminals is the most popular option. The thing I don't like though is that when you use the ratchet tool thats not $1500, the insulator support at the back isn't as well formed as it was meant to be.

I wonder if it wouldn't be wise to add a 1" length of shrink-wrap that covers half the PIDG insulation to give some extra support there. Moisture shouldn't be able to get in there and be trapped. However maybe it could delay detection of a broken connection because the shrink wrap alone would resist your pull when you tug on these things at annual.

Just thinking out loud.
 
Also consider that heat shrink may hold a loose connection together (poorly) giving you an intermittent issue hard to chase down.

I like heat shrink but tend to only use it where elements are a factor.
 
Hi Josh,

I've never used the $1500 crimper. What's different about strain relief formation using the hidollar version, on the same PIDG terminal?
 
Hi Josh,

I've never used the $1500 crimper. What's different about strain relief formation using the hidollar version, on the same PIDG terminal?

Oh, you haven't LIVED until you've used a $1500 crimper :)

Seriously, though...there is abundant information on Nuckolls' site, and you can find these AMP crimpers all over Ebay for around $100 last time I looked. I picked one up for about that back when I started the electrical stuff.
 
IIRC, the abundant info on Aeroelectric Connection says that the sensibly priced crimper works good enough. (And better is the enemy of good enough...)

Thought you had other info to the contrary.
 
IIRC, the abundant info on Aeroelectric Connection says that the sensibly priced crimper works good enough. (And better is the enemy of good enough...)

Thought you had other info to the contrary.

I was being somewhat ironic :) I'm sure the less expensive ones will work just fine.
 
OK, some quantitative information here...

Two lengths of Mil-W-22759/16-22 22ga white wire crimped into identical AMP-brand PIDG ring tongue terminals. Both ring tongue terminals screwed to the same floor joist in my basement workshop. Both supported more than 50lbs dead weight on a vertical downward pull. I don't have a means of measuring exactly how much more, but one termination failed with somewhat more additional load than the other - maybe 5lbs difference.

One was crimped with the 3-in-1 tool purchased from Stein. The other was crimped with a real AMP PIDG crimper. The stronger connection was done with the AMP crimper.

Ask yourself... does it really matter once you've got a terminal that will withstand 50lbs pull force, or more? While I'm a dyed-in-the-wool fan of the AMP crimpers, I won't hesitate to use the Stein-supplied or similar ones in my own aircraft. The AMP crimpers do make a nicer job of the insulation crimp and I suspect that's what provided the slightly better pull-out force for that termination.
 
Now, to make the test statistically significant, repeat it at least 100 times but make it a blind test with someone else doing the load testing.

Of course, the real deal is not pull out strength, but whether you get a gas-tight (meaning corrosion resistant) joint between wire & terminal. The AEC site shows a favorable comparison between the big bucks crimper and the one that's affordable to mere mortals.
 
LoL yes, I could have done this a hundred times, but I'm not getting paid to test! :)

With respect to "big bucks" crimpers, I picked up my last AMP PIDG crimper at a used tool store for less than I paid Stein for his generic crimper.

One other "plus" for the real AMP crimper is that its head is much less bulky than the generic crimper, plus the longer handles make it much easier to cycle, especially in tight working spaces.
 
Bill,

Do you know what model crimp tool will work with those connectors you linked to? Seems the "real" ones are very expensive. Is there a cheap or generic alternative?

I never found a cheap alternative, but I bought my gmt232 crimper used but in good shape for $40 on the big auction site. There are usually a selection to choose from.

Bill
 
I never found a cheap alternative, but I bought my gmt232 crimper used but in good shape for $40 on the big auction site. There are usually a selection to choose from.

Bill

Question -

I'm sure the 'real' adjustable crimpers have a daily calibration process to get the crimp adjustment correct, probably with fixed go/no go gauges.

If we are buying used professional crimpers and not performing the factory calibration process - essentially just doing it by the "that looks right" method - are we really getting better crimps than the cheaper tools?
 
I never found a cheap alternative, but I bought my gmt232 crimper used but in good shape for $40 on the big auction site. There are usually a selection to choose from.

Bill

Thanks for the part number... I'll keep my eye out. I wish the DMC AFM8 would do it... as much as I like tools it seems silly to get one for about 10 total connections. Oh well.


Chris
 
You do realize you can get PIDG butt splices, and crimp them with the same tool you use for terminals, right?

If you have locations you actually *need* sealed ends (uncommon to rare on our planes), you can always just slide a length of heat shrink over the splice...
 
Question -

I'm sure the 'real' adjustable crimpers have a daily calibration process to get the crimp adjustment correct, probably with fixed go/no go gauges.

If we are buying used professional crimpers and not performing the factory calibration process - essentially just doing it by the "that looks right" method - are we really getting better crimps than the cheaper tools?

John posted this link earlier in the thread: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html

The high dollar tool has four choices for the strain relief crimp. Put another way, it has three chances to do it wrong. Not sayin' it's a bad tool. If I was doing production work, it's what I would use, calibration or no.

As for the cheapo tool, I don't care what Electric Bob says. Not on my airplane. The metal to metal cross-section in the photos look ok, but overall, the terminal looks like it was squashed with a pair of pliers....notably the "strain relief" end.
 
John posted this link earlier in the thread: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html

The high dollar tool has four choices for the strain relief crimp. Put another way, it has three chances to do it wrong. Not sayin' it's a bad tool. If I was doing production work, it's what I would use, calibration or no.

As for the cheapo tool, I don't care what Electric Bob says. Not on my airplane. The metal to metal cross-section in the photos look ok, but overall, the terminal looks like it was squashed with a pair of pliers....notably the "strain relief" end.

Interesting link (it always is to Aerolectric Bob) but my cheapo crimper (maybe from Stein) does not have symmetrical jaws like Bob's crimper. If the PIDG terminal is carefully placed in the jaws I get a wire insulation crimp pretty close to the expensive one that Bob pictures.

Perhaps el-cheapo crimpers come in different versions?

I'm thousands of miles from my shop so I can't take any pics.
 
As for the cheapo tool, I don't care what Electric Bob says. Not on my airplane. The metal to metal cross-section in the photos look ok, but overall, the terminal looks like it was squashed with a pair of pliers....notably the "strain relief" end.

The terminals look to be the wrong size the the aeroelectric article and they all look plain nasty. I wouldn't have stuff like that in my plane either which is why I posted the photos copied in the first post on this thread. Nothing beats the long term reliability if a properly sized, uninsulated terminal, properly crimped with a long length of double wall, glue infused shrink tubing on it- period. You don't need a super expensive crimper to do a good job. There may be faster ways to get a good connection but there are no better ways than this IMO.

I've built multiple thousands of wiring harnesses over the last 20+ years (my main job at SDS) and I've seen some scary stuff done by customers returned to us. Some of these took them out of the sky. Don't be one of those guys. Most folks take years to build their RV, don't rush the wiring job. Your life may depend on that wiring.

BTW, these open terminals might work in Nevada but I'd be wary in Florida or places with equally high humidity and possibly salt air. Properly heat shrunk stuff keeps this out of the joint which is a big deal 10 or 20 years down the road.

Like Dan, I only want to do the job once and have no desire to try to find a connection issue deep in the bowels of a completed aircraft some years down the road.

The #1 issue we see when people complain that our electronics "don't work properly" is a poor electrical connection, generally grounds with high resistance and way more from areas with high humidity.
 
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Reading back through the last few posts, I'm not sure how carefully some of us are reading Bob's analysis, nor whether some of us understand their own crimper's action...

edit:I just peeled the nylon off a crimp made with the elcheapo I've had for years (bought from either Stein or B&C; I forget which), and it has the hourglass shape and flaired exit as shown in Bob N's images from the hidollar crimper.

NOTE: The elcheapo crimper (at least the one I own) DOES NOT HAVE SYMMETRICAL JAWS. You can't tell by looking, but if you close the mechanism to just shy of releasing, and check each side of the opening with your selection of numbered drill bits, I bet you'll find one side is more open than the other. If you insert the connector/wire assy backward, you'll likely get the 'crushed look' exit instead of the nice oval.
 
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Reading back through the last few posts, I'm not sure how carefully some of us are reading Bob's analysis, nor whether some of us understand their own crimper's action...

I carefully read the bit about el-cheapo jaw symmetry (one of his big points) and I know that my cheapo one is not symmetrical.

It's similar to this one -

http://www.cleavelandtool.com/Rachet-Terminal-Crimper/productinfo/WTC380#.WmJ_ZrpFyyI

or this similar one from Stein - a few $$ more but has the option of additional jaws for co-ax -

https://www.steinair.com/product/ratcheting-crimper-frame-only/

And a good crimp will give me a nice formed crimp of the PIDG terminal metal ring portion that surrounds the wire insulation.

More

Just read the red edit above, and remember that my cheapo crimper is slightly different in closed jaw height, but the jaw with the least height is also a bit narrower. Reversing the terminal would certainly give poor looking results.
 
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You do realize you can get PIDG butt splices, and crimp them with the same tool you use for terminals, right?

If you have locations you actually *need* sealed ends (uncommon to rare on our planes), you can always just slide a length of heat shrink over the splice...

And you do *realize* that if I used PIDG splices for the CANBUS or RS232 splices on the backshell the bundles would be enormous, right?

Just trying to follow what TFM says.
 
And you do *realize* that if I used PIDG splices for the CANBUS or RS232 splices on the backshell the bundles would be enormous, right?

Just trying to follow what TFM says.

No, I didn't. When did you specify that as what you're doing? Who/what is TFM?
 
No, I didn't. When did you specify that as what you're doing? Who/what is TFM?

Bill,

Do you know what model crimp tool will work with those connectors you linked to? Seems the "real" ones are very expensive. Is there a cheap or generic alternative?

I use these butt splices from aircraft spruce and though they are a bit pricey they work great. Just got to get the proper crimper and they install quickly and are a sealed connection. https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/splicesAWG20-16.php

Bill

Charlie - my interest in this thread was mainly for the environmental splices for purchase at aircraft spruce that Bill linked to. As you pointed out, that's an expensive way to make a simple butt splice connection.

However, those environmental splices are the only endorsed method for the CANBUS and RS232 connections. Here's what the Garmin installation manual says:

24.4.8 Splicing Signal Wires
NOTE
Figure 24-13 illustrates that a splice must be made within a 3 inch window from outside
the edge of clamp to the end of the 3 inch max mark.
WARNING
Keep the splice out of the backshell for pin extraction, and outside of the strain relief to
avoid preloading.
Figure 24-13 shows a two wire splice, but a maximum of three wires can be spliced. If a third wire is
spliced, it is located out front of splice along with signal wire going to pin.
Splice part numbers:
?Raychem D-436-36/37/38
?MIL Spec MIL-S-81824/1

Trust me, if I could use the PIDG connectors I would gladly do so.
In the case of the GTN 625 and G3X installs, Garmin requires the use of these Mil Spec 81824/1 environmental splices - at least according to the manual. I'm just looking for the right (read: cheap) tool to make those connections. As you pointed out, I'm not sure where else in an RV these types of connections would be required.


TFM stands for the.. manual. :)

Enjoy your weekend
 
OK; now that I see the constraints...

The next question is, how open are you to 'alternate method of compliance' (to twist an FAA phrase)? If you're willing to do what will effectively accomplish the same thing without using the specified devices, I'd suggest looking at these:

https://www.google.com/search?q=solder+sleeve&oq=solder+sleeve&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.12296j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

If you can get past the old 'stress riser'/rigid connection argument (realizing that the shrink provides the support/strain relief on either side of the joint, just like a crimped connector), those little gadgets will get you to the same place, with only a book of matches as your crimper. And you can get them from the same source, Spruce (in addition to any decent electronics supply house).

Charlie
 
No need to start a "primer war"

Sigh...

We were taught to not go lean of peak on Lycs, too.

Look at that pic of the crimped connector before the shrink wrap is applied. Think there's no stress riser there?

Attachment method matters not. What does matter is supporting the wire beyond the stress riser point.

Sorry, but this solder/crimp thing just seems to be a bigger thing than primer wars, sometimes.

Charlie
No Holiday Inns recently, but a couple of past lives as an electronics tech.

Charlie, I have been in the business too. I was referring to what the USAF would accept when I was keeping F4 Phantoms in the air. I agree there are places for soldering as well. On the F4 the connector for the pitch actuator was a crimp only mandate. The wire traveled with the actuator movement. You would find yourself scrubbing hangar floors with a toothbrush if your boss found a solder joint on a repair you did on that connector. Same with the autopilot amplifier. Here's todays rule book from NASA. It shows both crimp and solder but is controlled by the application. NASA-STD-8739.4A ? 2016-06-30

Former tech, avionics specialist and still an engineer 50 years later.
 
You've got far more experience than me, and better credentials, too. :)

I agree with you; different conditions call for different techniques. If we don't understand what drove the original requirements, it's obviously safer to stick with established procedure.

But...

Many times, especially with highly structured projects, choices are made that might not be driven purely by safety, but by...well, for lack of a better term, convenience. As has been pointed out, it's a lot easier to ensure consistent results in a production environment if the tooling does it, instead of the random craftsman. For instance, some milspec/aerospace wire is surfaced with nickel, some with silver, some with tin, etc. The info I've seen (you'd probably have direct experience) says nickel surfaced wire can't be properly soldered, but it's great for crimps. Obviously, a tech who, for instance, tried to repair nickel plated wire with solder would be making a grave error. So in critical situations, the 'book' tells the tech exactly how to do every job, and he just does it, without question or variation. He doesn't even need to know why.

Now, the question is, does that apply to us? If we buy surplus milspec wire off ebay, as some of us {me} do, it might. Certainly, if we {I} don't do our homework.

On the other hand, if we know we're using the more common tin plated milpsec wire, I believe I have a bit more flexibility in the processes I choose, while still remaining safe.

Are we close to being on the same page?

Charlie
 
Nothing beats the long term reliability if a properly sized, uninsulated terminal, properly crimped with a long length of double wall, glue infused shrink tubing on it- period.

I'm with you. Of course, as heretics in a world dominated by the Church of PIDG, we'll both probably get boiled in oil ;)
 
OK; now that I see the constraints...

The next question is, how open are you to 'alternate method of compliance' (to twist an FAA phrase)? If you're willing to do what will effectively accomplish the same thing without using the specified devices, I'd suggest looking at these:

https://www.google.com/search?q=solder+sleeve&oq=solder+sleeve&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.12296j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

If you can get past the old 'stress riser'/rigid connection argument (realizing that the shrink provides the support/strain relief on either side of the joint, just like a crimped connector), those little gadgets will get you to the same place, with only a book of matches as your crimper. And you can get them from the same source, Spruce (in addition to any decent electronics supply house).

Charlie

These are similar to the heat shrink/solder sleeves specified by Garmin for making connections to the outer ground sleeve of multi-conductor interconnect cables.
 
These are similar to the heat shrink/solder sleeves specified by Garmin for making connections to the outer ground sleeve of multi-conductor interconnect cables.

But be careful not to confuse typical shield terminating solder sleeves with "butt splice" type splder sleeves, they are not the same thing. Butt splice solder sleeves are great but the cost is quite high. For the CAN bus and 232 wires that have to be spliced, my method is to solder and cover with double wall adhesive shrink tube.
 
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Walt, that's what I do, as well, but I have the soldering skills. I've got quite a few soldered/heatshrunk joints in my project. A lot of builders don't have the skillset & tools to do soldering, and don't have the interest in learning.

Most of the solder sleeve prices I'm seeing are around $.80 each; about half the price of the crimps shown in earlier posts.

EDIT: or maybe, less

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ILSEDWI/ref=asc_df_B01ILSEDWI5343019/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B01ILSEDWI&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167132652162&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11364294122261798903&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9013952&hvtargid=pla-362741562167

Charlie
 
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Walt, that's what I do, as well, but I have the soldering skills. I've got quite a few soldered/heatshrunk joints in my project. A lot of builders don't have the skillset & tools to do soldering, and don't have the interest in learning.

Most of the solder sleeve prices I'm seeing are around $.80 each; about half the price of the crimps shown in earlier posts.

EDIT: or maybe, less

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ILSEDWI/ref=asc_df_B01ILSEDWI5343019/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B01ILSEDWI&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167132652162&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11364294122261798903&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9013952&hvtargid=pla-362741562167

Charlie

These are the ones I have used from Raychem, not sure what the amazon stuff is, these will cost you >$3 each!

http://www.te.com/usa-en/product-448859-000.html
 
Spruce has the Raychem version for cheaper (0.79 - $1.42 depending on size):

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/cata...o above (see Walt's correction below)[/COLOR]
 
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Stein uses the terms Solder Sleeve and Solder Splice intercheangeably

Stein uses the terms Solder Sleeve and Solder Splice intercheangeably

Stein video 006 - first he strips: STRIPPING MULTI CONDUCTOR AVIATION WIRE / CABLE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PuX8yui0VU

Stein video 007 - then he attaches ground wire to shield - SOLDER SLEEVE & SOLDER SPLICE on Aviation Wire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhRCUAYoSXg

TE Connectivity describes three methods of cable preparation:
4.2.1 Center Strip
4.2.2 End Strip
4.2.3 End Strip with Braid Fold Back - recommended for cables rated less than 125C
http://www.te.com/commerce/Document...fEnglishENG_SS_RCPS-100-70_J.pdf375094-000

Since Stein is using the End Strip method one might infer the rating of Tefzel insulation > 125C and from what I can find it is rated 150C.
 
Those are solder shield terminations, not solder splices, not the same thing.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but the only issue should be whether the diameter is too large for the application. In either case, you're soldering tin plated copper conductors to each other with a ring of low melting temp solder, and shrinking a layer of shrink wrap around the joint.
 
We are in absolute agreement...

You've got far more experience than me, and better credentials, too. :)

I agree with you; different conditions call for different techniques. If we don't understand what drove the original requirements, it's obviously safer to stick with established procedure.

But...

Many times, especially with highly structured projects, choices are made that might not be driven purely by safety, but by...well, for lack of a better term, convenience. As has been pointed out, it's a lot easier to ensure consistent results in a production environment if the tooling does it, instead of the random craftsman. For instance, some milspec/aerospace wire is surfaced with nickel, some with silver, some with tin, etc. The info I've seen (you'd probably have direct experience) says nickel surfaced wire can't be properly soldered, but it's great for crimps. Obviously, a tech who, for instance, tried to repair nickel plated wire with solder would be making a grave error. So in critical situations, the 'book' tells the tech exactly how to do every job, and he just does it, without question or variation. He doesn't even need to know why.

Now, the question is, does that apply to us? If we buy surplus milspec wire off ebay, as some of us {me} do, it might. Certainly, if we {I} don't do our homework.

On the other hand, if we know we're using the more common tin plated milpsec wire, I believe I have a bit more flexibility in the processes I choose, while still remaining safe.

Are we close to being on the same page?

Charlie

Absolutely on the same page. With regard to the nickel, I had an experience in my early engineering days where a gold plated lead (they use nickel as the base material) was not plated thick enough with gold. The part, which saw no vibration, nicely unsoldered itself! Anyway, we are in complete agreement.

Paul
 
Perhaps I'm missing something, but the only issue should be whether the diameter is too large for the application. In either case, you're soldering tin plated copper conductors to each other with a ring of low melting temp solder, and shrinking a layer of shrink wrap around the joint.

Not enough solder in the ring to sufficiently wet the wires I think is the main difference. Thats why some sleeves are spec'd as shield termination and others are spec'd as splices.
 
Allow me to speak for bare terminals and adhesive heat shrink.

23i7yis.jpg


Yes, it takes longer. Beyond that, there are several advantages. Every metal-to-metal crimp can be inspected visually. Open jaw plain or ratchet crimpers allow fine stoning of the jaw edges to prep a new tool.

Closed tube inline splice terminal. Good crimp, proper bellmouth:

wmnsb5.jpg


2hf8iab.jpg


Strain relief and vibration resistance is probably an order of magnitude beyond that offered by a PIDG's (hopefully) diamond shaped insulation crimp, and it is sealed, at least at the strain relief end.

dcbrjn.jpg


Less bulky too.

kduxrb.jpg


Adhesive heat shrink can be shaped when hot. Just bend and hold a few seconds to cool. The shape is locked in.

10n4w7l.jpg


I am not knocking PIDGs. They're fast, and mostly good enough. I will argue that the above terminations are more durable in service.
 
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