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No throttle, no check ride--

Skyhook

Well Known Member
My spoilsport of a CFII says he needs to have some access to the power if he's to give me my biennial check. Humph. Looks like it's to be in the Pitts again. :rolleyes:

What I would like to do is put a throttle back there. I contacted Vans and was told they do not make such a thing.

So-o-o-o, knowing somebody has done it (right?) I wonder if I might get some help and advice on this little problem?

Thanks,

Jim
 
bfr

See if you can get your instructor to give you your bfr from the ground. It is legal, a couple of bfrs ago I had mine done that way as I fly a single seat RV3. He comunicated with me via hand held and observed my stall series, short and soft field take off and landings and engine out from the comfort of a lawn chair. The oral was pretty intense but all worked out. Of course this would only work at a non towered airport.
Just a thought
Tom
 
Cfi

Are you current now? Maybe you should change CFI's? He doesn't have to be able to manipulate the controls, you are the PIC as long as you are current. Does he have some reason to suspect that you may hurt him? :eek:

If I know the pilot and he is current, I don't have any need to manipulate the controls. I will tell him what I want him to do and he will demonstrate it. The whole concept here is to make sure you are safe. I do like to teach the person something new, or demonstrate (i.e. take over and get to do some flying myself ;) ) that becomes difficult, but lets get back to the main reason for the flight - you demonstrate you can safely handle the plane.

Good luck!

Stewart
 
7pilot, you gave me a couple of chuckles along with your sound advice.

I think it is a kind of 'control' issue and I can't really fault him for that. I'm not claiming I haven't scared others and myself once or twice- ;)

tin man, I'll give the ground check some serious thought and see what I get for a response.

ww2planes, I will be looking into what DJM has to offer. It seems the rear seat quadrant could also come in handy in demo flights, etc.

Thanks for the excellent responses, guys!
 
Rear Throttle Quadrant

Hi Jim

Here are the images of my throttle quadrants
00002270vq.jpg


00002281yd.jpg


00002299gx.jpg
 
Hummmm

tin man said:
See if you can get your instructor to give you your bfr from the ground. Just a thought Tom
Really! All I have to say how does he know you flew with in the standards for your rating? Airspeed, Altitude, smoothness. I think of a BFR as recurrent TRAINNING. As a CFI I would not do it, and not sure it is kosher. Not saying it can't be done but it sounds odd.:

"FLIGHT REVIEW" 61.56
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (f) of this section, a flight review consists of a minimum of 1 hour of flight training and 1 hour of ground training. The review must include:

The word FLIGHT TRAINING should say something.

I just doubt it and would call the FISDO if it was asked of me. Personally even if the FAA said OK I would not do it. I want to not only evaluate the pilot but give them some training, such as hood time, which most VFR pilots have little total or recent experience in. I would hate to watch a guy do 1 hour of touch and goes from a lawn-chair and than a few months later find out that pilot rolled it into the ground on a night takeoff over sparsely lit area on a moonless night.

With out a stick, rudder and throttle I would not fly. Now if the pilot is current, medical, last 90 days and BFR has not expired a CFI can fly with OUT dual controls, since the pilot is the PIC. Most CFI's will not. I would consider it with a pilot I knew very well. I get "line checks" from the FAA and they are on the jump seat. You don't need to have controls to teach or evaluate. However most CFI's and examiners will not waive their right to have control. If the pilot is out of currency there is NO doubt full controls are required, since the CFI is PIC.

George CFI
 
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tin man said:
See if you can get your instructor to give you your bfr from the ground. It is legal, a couple of bfrs ago I had mine done that way as I fly a single seat RV3. He comunicated with me via hand held and observed my stall series, short and soft field take off and landings and engine out from the comfort of a lawn chair. The oral was pretty intense but all worked out. Of course this would only work at a non towered airport.
Just a thought
Tom

From Joe Norris at EAA:

"You cannot do a flight review in a single seat aircraft. The regulation (14 CFR 61.56) specifically requires one hour of "flight training", which means dual instruction. You'll have to take your flight review in something that allows dual instruction."

Tony
 
Single seat

Tony Spicer said:
From Joe Norris at EAA:

"You cannot do a flight review in a single seat aircraft. The regulation (14 CFR 61.56) specifically requires one hour of "flight training", which means dual instruction. You'll have to take your flight review in something that allows dual instruction."

Tony
Thanks, that is what I thought "FLIGHT TRAINING" meant. I guess that means RV-4/8 fall under that right? George CFI/ATP
 
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Throttle....back?

The best rear seat RV4 throttle I have seen was painfully simple and cool looking. The owner drilled holes through two fuselage bulkheads and ran a small diameter straight aluminum rod through the holes (plastic guides in the holes) bent it 90 degrees at the front, put it through the throttle handle and drilled it with a washer and cotter key. At the back he threaded a golf ball onto the end of the rod...push me-pull you...I have a temporary back seat throttle even simpler, a wood dowel with holes at both ends, tie wrapped to the throttle and through one at the back...

BTW, My Dad gave a friend his BFR in a "throttle-less" back seat RV4..

Rob Ray
 
Ooooooh, k. Now this sounds simple enough even for me to accomplish.

Thanks.

(Still digesting info....)


Jim
 
Flight Review

Hi,
It is correct that you can give a Flight Review from the ground as stated above. A CFI could also give a Flight Review without controls if the pilot is current, example - Beech with flop over controls!!!!! But it is up to the CFI and if he/she is comfortable flying without controls. I became a CFI in 1972 and it would be on a case by case bases if I would give a Flight Review without a complete set of controls. I would taking into consideration the pilot, aircraft, etc. before making the decision. Remember, the person taking the review only log the time as duel if he/she does not pass the review.
Tom CFII
 
The best rear seat RV4 throttle I have seen was painfully simple and cool looking. The owner drilled holes through two fuselage bulkheads and ran a small diameter straight aluminum rod through the holes (plastic guides in the holes) bent it 90 degrees at the front, put it through the throttle handle and drilled it with a washer and cotter key. At the back he threaded a golf ball onto the end of the rod...push me-pull you...I have a temporary back seat throttle even simpler, a wood dowel with holes at both ends, tie wrapped to the throttle and through one at the back...

Rob Ray


Something simple like this?

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=16474&highlight=Rear+Seat+Throttle
 
Looks like your CFII has RV envy and wants an excuse to try her out!:D

That's what I was thinking! :D
Personally I find it slightly akward to have someone in MY airplane, who's never flown anything like it, try to teach me how to fly it. :confused: Add one to the oxi-moron list...

My bi-annuals are done in whatever plane the fbo has sitting around.
 
Flight Review

Tony,
First, it is no longer a BFR it is now and has been for years a Flight Review, I still call it a BFR at times. Remember you are looking at government regulations and they do not always tell you the complete story in one place. To go through the entire thing it would take some time and would just raise more questions. You can check the flight instructors hand book and talk to the local FSDO. You can probably talk to two inspectors in FSDO and get two answers, at least one should be what I stated. Another thing if you look at FAR 61.56 (i) "A flight simulator or flight training device may be used to meet the flight review requirements --------". But with a flight simulator there is a lot of conditions. Again, think about the Beech's that had the throw over controls. There has been a lot of Flight Reviews given in them. To add to the discussion, a CFI does not have to have a current medical if he is giving instruction that does no require him to be the PIC, example is a Flight Review, Commercial Pilot training, etc when the pilot is current and the operation or aircraft does not require a second pilot, find that in the regulations. As I said before, I would have to know the pilot's capability real well before I would give a Flight Review in an aircraft with only one set of controls.
Out here,
Tom CFII
 
Flight review in single place aircraft?

Tom,

Not having much faith in my ability to decipher FAA regs, I contacted EAA and FAA early in the construction of my RV-3. Here are the responses:

"After some research and speaking with 2 operations inspectors I have an answer for you. In order to do your BFR your must have an aircraft in which you can be observed (2 person or better). You would not be able to do your BFR in the RV-3 with the CFI observing from the ground." Rick Litka, Greensboro FSDO, 336 662-1069.

This from Joe Norris at EAA:

"The reg used to allow flight reviews to be observed from the ground, but when the reg was changed to specifically include one hour of "flight instruction" this option went away."

I then asked Joe who's arse would be on the line if it were done from the ground.

"On the question of who's arse..., the answer is BOTH. The pilot is flying without a valid flight review, and the instructor signed a flight review without performing it in accordance with the reg."

Fearing Falcon Insurance more than the FAA, I did my last flight review in a J-3.

Tony
 
Flight Reviews

Like many things that involve "regulations", there are many opinions. Many times, things are worked through, and assumed to be done correctly, because no one said otherwise. If I were to give a flight review from the ground, or give a flight review in a Bonanza with throw-over controls, and sign the person off, who would ever question it, barring an accident etc.? The bottom line is both of the above conditions are not legal for a CFI to give a review under. It has been quite a few years since reviews have been legal in throw over yoke airplanes or single seats. There is presently a waiver (through the FAA) CFI's can apply for to instruct in throw over yoke aircrart. There are quite a few CFI's that have applied for and received this waiver. If you are interested in the details, look at American Beechcraft Societie's website. The FAA presently does not require dual brakes for the CFI, but all other controls must be present for "instruction". Since a flight review is considered "instruction", the controls must be in place. Finding someone who doesn't know the rules and will give you the review is possible, but why? Remember, you can't flunk a flight review! Go take it correctly and enjoy the experience with an open mind and try to pick up some tips.

Jim Baker
CFI-IA
RV-6
 
Here's how I do it

Show your CFII some acro manouvers in his new RV7a...Once he can do a hammerhead (which were a little weired doing from the right seat) he'll do anything for ya...:)

As I only have a LH throttle mine sat thru my whole IFR training with nothing to play with..and (smewhat miraculously) he's still alive!...:)

Frank
 
Chase Ship

In the AF we give check rides all the time, tactical and instrument, with the evaluator in a chase ship. They will chase you through the maneuvers and approaches to include the overhead pattern. So the question is can a CFI if in a comparable aircraft give a flight review while observing from another aircraft? Just food for thought. Formation work is popular in the RV world, it would seem that this might be the perfect option for the RV-3 boys to get a flight review and some formation work as well.

Cheers
 
Show your CFII some acro manouvers in his new RV7a...Once he can do a hammerhead (which were a little weired doing from the right seat) he'll do anything for ya...:)

As I only have a LH throttle mine sat thru my whole IFR training with nothing to play with..and (smewhat miraculously) he's still alive!...:)

Frank

I donno, as a cfi, I think I would only _REALLY_ feel confident in YOUR flying ability if you can demonstrate an avalanche, followed by a crisp 4-pt roll, then into an inverted half-cuban. Maybe then ;)
 
Well thanks Bruce!

I donno, as a cfi, I think I would only _REALLY_ feel confident in YOUR flying ability if you can demonstrate an avalanche, followed by a crisp 4-pt roll, then into an inverted half-cuban. Maybe then ;)

After you've looked at my youtube acro vids, can you sign my logbook?..:)

Oh..you want me to do that from YOUR right seat...that might be a litle tricky for me..

Frank
 
Flight Review

FAR 61.45 e (3)



(e) Aircraft with single controls. A practical test may be conducted in an aircraft having a single set of controls, provided the:
(1) Examiner agrees to conduct the test;
(2) Test does not involve a demonstration of instrument skills; and
(3) Proficiency of the applicant can be observed by an examiner who is in a position to observe the applicant.

Known of this for years, as a CFI I can observe from the ground.
 
Flight Review

Since my last posting I have looked up the regulation (FAR 61.45 e (3)) and have talked to three FAA Inspectors from two FSDO. Two agreed with me and one did not. When I ask the one who did not to look at FAR 61.45 e (3) he then said maybe you are correct. Anyway here is FAR 61.45 e (3):
(e) Aircraft with single controls. A practical test may be conducted in an aircraft having a single set of controls, provided the:
(1) Examiner agrees to conduct the test;
(2) Test does not involve a demonstration of instrument skills; and
(3) Proficiency of the applicant can be observed by an examiner who is in a position to observe the applicant.
Sooooo it is up to the CFI.
Tom CFII
 
Flight review/FAR 61.45

A CFI is not an "examiner". A Flight Review is not a "Practical test", it is instruction....

Jim Baker
CFI-IA
RV-6
 
Flight review/single controls

This was copied off the Beechcraft Societies site. Many have e-mailed me asking to clarify, as they could not access the site being non-members. The rules are pretty clear, flight reviews can not be legally given unless the plane is equipt with dual controls. This will carry over to RV's that don't have dual controls also, with more emphasis on tandem aircraft which don't leave much room for interpretation of whether the controls can be reached by the second pilot. Also, this explains that there is a difference between the intent of the FAR's on "examiners" and "CFI's", and what they can and can't do legally. Hope this clears up some of the confussion. Bottom line is Flight training, other than instrument, as well as Flight reviews are not legal in throw over yoke aircraft or RV's not equipt with dual controls. Practical tests "may" be given if the "examiner" agrees to it.
Jim Baker
CFI-IA
RV-6

__

Instruction in Single Control Airplanes


Flight Instruction in Single-Control Beechcraft

updated 7/19/2007


ABS frequently gets questions about the legality of flight instruction in airplanes with a single control yoke. Here’s the applicable Federal Air Regulation, with emphasis added:
? 91.109 Flight instruction; Simulated instrument flight and certain flight tests.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft…that is being used for flight instruction unless that aircraft has fully functioning dual controls. However, instrument flight instruction may be given in a single-engine airplane equipped with a single, functioning throwover control wheel in place of fixed, dual controls of the elevator and ailerons when—

(1) The instructor has determined that the flight can be conducted safely; and

(2) The person manipulating the controls has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings.



FAA interpretation, enforcement action and some insurance claims history consistently rule that a Flight Review as required in 61.56 consists of “flight instruction,” and therefore dual flight controls must be installed. There is no room for interpretation requiring dual controls for any other instruction not specifically limited to “instrument” instruction, for example, instruction toward currency requirements, high-performance and/or complex endorsements, pilot certificates or ratings, and insurance-mandated checkout instruction (for purposes of meeting insurance underwriters’ policy stipulations).



Single-Control Exemptions

Confirming this interpretation, the FAA provides for exemptions to FAR 91.109(a) permitting flight instruction in single-control airplanes under certain circumstances. Exemptions require both pilot and instructor be qualified to act as pilot-in-command, precluding some types of training, including initial checkouts if the pilot receiving instruction does not already have his/her Complex and High Performance endorsements.

ABS’ training partner BPPP, Inc. holds an exemption that allows instruction in single-control single and multiengine Beechcraft, but only when such training is done in a regularly scheduled BPPP event (see www.bppp.org). BPPP's exemption is also subject to the requirement that both student and instructor be qualified to act as PIC.



A few individual instructors have successfully petitioned the FAA for single-control exemptions valid for instruction in single-control airplanes outside of BPPP events. Instructors wishing a single-control exemption must apply to the FAA at this address:

Petition for Exemption
Rules Docket (AGC-10)
Federal Aviation Administration
800 Independence Avenue SW
Washington, DC 20591




There is a sample exemption application published in the Federal Register.



Success in obtaining an exemption seems to hinge on the instructor’s experience in Beech aircraft and his/her personal relationship with their local FSDO. In some cases these exemptions are valid in multiengine airplanes, in others it is restricted to single-engine aircraft.


Instructors Holding Exemptions, and How to Find Them

CFIs holding exemptions to conduct single-yoke training are encouraged to post contact information in the Flight Instructors conference area on the Hangar Flying bulletin board, in the Members Only section of www.bonanza.org. Be certain to indicate you have an exemption to provide single-yoke instruction, whether it permits instruction in single- and/or multiengine Beechcraft, and the expiration date of your current exemption.

Pilots seeking instruction: Please read the "Important: About This Flight Instructor List" before choosing a flight instructor who has posted his or her information in Hangar Flying.



FAA Practical Tests (checkrides) in Single-Control Airplanes (not to include instruction or Flight Reviews)

FAR 61.45(e) gives individual pilot examiners authority to decide whether they wish to conduct practical tests in single-control airplanes, under these conditions:

(e) Aircraft with single controls. A practical test may be conducted in an aircraft having a single set of controls, provided the:
(1) Examiner agrees to conduct the test;
(2) Test does not involve a demonstration of instrument skills; and
(3) Proficiency of the applicant can be observed by an examiner who is in a position to observe the applicant.

Ironically, FAR 91.109(a) permits instrument flight instruction in single-control airplanes, but FAR 61.45(e) prohibits an instrument pilot checkride in that same airplane. ABS is attempting to get a clarification from the FAA concerning this contradiction.



Rental Yokes

Several facilities provide dual yoke rental services. A rental yoke may be shipped to an aircraft owner and quickly installed by a certificated mechanic (a mechanic’s logbook endorsement is required). BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL to check all control movement, trim operation and the proper function of push-to-talk, autopilot disconnect and any other yoke-mounted switches after installing a dual yoke and again when re-installing the single yoke.



Although there may be others, ABS knows of the following dual control rental sources. Contact each for price and availability.



Air-Mech 888-282-9010
CruiseAir 760-789-8020
Cygnet 805-528-2376
Dave Monte 775-792-5282
Garhawk 800-686-9887
Lawson Barber 559-675-0183
 
My spoilsport of a CFII says he needs to have some access to the power if he's to give me my biennial check. Humph. Looks like it's to be in the Pitts again. :rolleyes:

What I would like to do is put a throttle back there. I contacted Vans and was told they do not make such a thing.

So-o-o-o, knowing somebody has done it (right?) I wonder if I might get some help and advice on this little problem?

Thanks,

Jim

Jim

I have fitted a throttle lever in the rear cockpit of my 4. I can take photos and talk you through it.

regards

Stan (G-MUMY)

U.K.
 
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