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Renovating an RV-4?

CKrause

I'm New Here
Greetings, all

I've been looking at the whole build/buy dilemma on the RV-4.

Buy looks like it could (initially) be quite a bit less expensive; with the caveat that you're only buying a partial engine reserve.

The Build option looks like a lot of fun - but it's also 1500-2000 hours of time, while the buy option is pretty much "instant gratification". I don't mind the work, but the idea of being grounded for 2-10 years of build time doesn't appeal. Buying has the drawback that I get the plane as someone else decided to build her.

What are people's opinions on a third option: renovation.

The idea is to buy a serviceable airframe, get a full AP mechanic inspection / sign-off on the "bones" of the aircraft, then do a full engine / avionics / interior / paint job replacement.

From what I can tell, this isn't any less expensive.

From what I can tell from Barnstormers, an RV-4 in serviceable condition, with ~50% engine reserve comes in around $USD45K / $Cdn55K. Some of this could be "clawed back" by selling/trading-in the existing engine ($Cdn20K? more? less?).

Are there other options here? For what I'm thinking, I don't need the aircraft to be flyable - just that her airframe is intact (or repairable?).

Throw in a new Lycoming OI-360 (~$Cdn45K installed), $Cdn15K in avionics/instrumentation (say a Dynon 7" panel, with autopilot servos, airspeed and altitude steam guages + a TruTrak Gemini PFD as backup, manual backup engine/oil gauges, Dynon 2.25" dial sized transponder and VHF radio, tac, hobbs, chronometer). Throw in $Cdn 5K to have her professionally repainted, maybe $Cdn10K to have the interior/panel redone.

Prices are pessimistically figured at the "I hire someone else to do it" level. I realize that doing as much of it as I can myself is a trade off of time for money.

By my "spitball" calculations, this comes out to around $Cdn100K "all in", for a fully tuned RV-4, with new engine/interior/panel, "turnkey". From what I can tell, that's about the same as the build cost would be for a comparable configuration.

Renovation isn't saving any money, but it might save time - say 6-8 months of renovation (by professionals - more time for me), vs. 2-10 years of build time, while still ending up with as custom an aircraft as I would be able to develop as a kit build.

Plus, it potentially saves one of these beautiful planes from the scrap yard :)

What do you think? Does my logic hold - or am I missing some major consideration here?

Thanks,
 
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There are several 4's that have come up for sale on here that are very nice and not very pricey. If it were me, keep a keen eye out for a good deal, get an RV'er to do a pre buy and buy one in good shape. Post a WTB for one too to get ahead of a line. Good ones here usually go in a couple of days, so set your triggers for classifieds. It might take a year, might come in a week. Be ready to act decisively.

Then, if after you know the plane, decide of you want to build one to your specifications, and keep the flyer for reference. Just one opinion, or 2 cents.
 
RV-4

It took me 9 years of looking, especially on Barnstormers then one finally popped up in Guelph Ontario. I had my good friend who built and flies an RV-4 check out the aircraft and give his ok. Once the deal was done he flew it back to Nova Scotia and checked me out the following summer. Only concern I had at the time was the time on the engine. My friend told me as long as compressions were good and it didn't burn to much oil it wouldn't stop him from purchasing it. I have been flying it since the summer of 2010 and have had no major problems with it. It uses 1 litre of oil every 13.5 hours.

As Bill said just keep looking and be patient and you'll find a good one for the price out there. Definitely get an RV guy to give you a hand.
 
Look for a kit that is almost complete. I think that's your best bet. Then you can finish it to your liking.
 
Welcome to VAF!

Greetings, all

Charles, greetings back at ya-----------and
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to VAF
 
CKrause, with all the things you're looking at doing to an already flying -4, i'd say that this part of your post stands out the most for me:

CKrause said:
...the idea of being grounded for 2-10 years of build time doesn't appeal...

The reality is that all the work you're talking about would be at least a 2 year project on its own, especially for someone with no former RV experience. I've been around RV's for 20 years and owned one for 5, and I wouldn't expect to complete such an extensive upgrade without a couple of summers having passed me by in the process.

Now, if you're not in a hurry to have *all* of those things done at once, then you might consider something in-between. Find a good solid airframe, airworthy and flying. Then upgrade it a bit at a time... Panel one year, engine another year, paint another year, etc. Put a year or two in between each of these, and the cash flow won't bankrupt you or get you divorced, either. :)

The nice part about this is that it will get you flying an RV, and after you've owned and flown one for a while you'll be better able to evaluate what you want when you upgrade.
 
Seems to me..

.. the best of all worlds would be to find a project that's almost complete, airframe-wise, but not flying. Then you could either finish it up yourself or pay someone else to do it (like you would for a renovation). In the end, you'd have a new, customized bird for a fraction of the time and cost..
 
Buy or build?

Biggest question is: are you a builder or a flyer? I am a flyer so I bought. My opinion, buy a flying RV-4 that is a good airframe and even a high time engine. Then fly a ton and really KNOW what you want or need, then you will know whether to invest money in avionics, engine, prop, paint, ....

When I bought my Rocket, I just wanted to go fast then I got with a group doing formation so my needs changed. Once you have the RV then don't change a thing for 1 year and get 100 hours under your belt. Then start fixing, upgrading, cause then you will know how YOU use the plane.

First thing, jump in with both feet and get an RV now!!! How many guys here are on plane 1, 2, 3, ... 8?

For me: big engine, C/S prop, IFR to be legal, smoke system, desire inverted fuel/oil. Shoot, you might decide to sell and buy an 8 or Rocket!!! But buy, fly then decide!

My humble opinion, (once you have a plane budget, never let it go away or your wife will spend it for you!)
 
I really appreciate all the feedback; thank you :)

The general vibe I'm getting is that I might be trying too hard to do everything all at once - and that might not be the wisest option.

I can certainly see the merit to that argument!

If I really want everything "turnkey perfect", then maybe an Experimental isn't for me, and I'd be better off with something registered or LSA/AULA.

However, the ability to roll up my sleeves, get "under the hood", really understand the aircraft from spark plugs to aerodynamics is something I really want.

So, maybe it can't be "perfect" at first.

I really like Snowflake and Yobo's advice: get flying asap, and work toward that "perfect design" - especially as that design will change with time and experience. Maybe the second RV will be a home built, based on what I know I really do want, from experience.

So - maybe time for some serious talk with my financial adviser, and with the wife, and haunt the Classifieds looking for a plane that will do what I need now (whether that's RV-3,4 or 8).

Thank you :)
 
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Things to check

Based on experience of an Rv-4 and an RV8, two things that I would inspect in VERY close detail - were I ever to buy a near completed kit or even a finished, flying plane - are:

Fuel tank attachment. I have seen two aircraft with way over-countersunk holes in the main spar. On one there was no countersinking at all, just a series of big holes. On the other the holes were all knife-edged. These spars are toast. Vans has a fix for one or two, but not the whole lot. So, the inspection MUST include pulling the tanks and checking the spar flanges.

Empennage attachment. I've just seen an RV-8 where the forward HS attachment bolts just nicked, rather than passed through, the top longerons. So look closely and make sure that the outer bolts are no more than 3/8" from the skin edge.

There must be plenty of structural redundancy in Vans designs but these building errors should not be acceptable to builders or inspectors. Repairing longerons or replacing main spars are not trivial exercises but the alternative is a risk of the proverbial smoking hole in the ground.......

I started out with just your idea/plan. I'm now building from from scratch, having been burnt!

Good luck,

Chris
 
Based on experience of an Rv-4 and an RV8, two things that I would inspect in VERY close detail - were I ever to buy a near completed kit or even a finished, flying plane - are:

Fuel tank attachment. I have seen two aircraft with way over-countersunk holes in the main spar. On one there was no countersinking at all, just a series of big holes. On the other the holes were all knife-edged. These spars are toast. Vans has a fix for one or two, but not the whole lot. So, the inspection MUST include pulling the tanks and checking the spar

There must be plenty of structural redundancy in Vans designs but these building errors should not be acceptable to builders or inspectors. Repairing longerons or replacing main spars are not trivial exercises but the alternative is a risk of the proverbial smoking hole in the ground.......

I started out with just your idea/plan. I'm now building from from scratch, having been burnt!

Good luck,

Chris

Has there ever been an accident related to those holes being countersunk too much? Just to be clear, those holes are on the flange of the spar web, not the cap, so the spar strength is not affected. It is only the tank attachment. Not that tank attachment is not important of course. Has one ever come off? I'm not sure what your claim of a "smoking hole" is based on.
 
RV-4 assembled parts for sale

I have just "what may get you to your goal" in less time than starting from scratch. Please see my ad in Classifieds on page 2 with a "thumbs up" mark. RV-4 Project. Click on the photobucket link and on the web check out the library w/pics.
Thanks!
Annette
[email protected]
 
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