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RV-8QB: SB 16-12-16 Missing Center Section Bolts

Its Drawing Number 11 for early RV-8QB

The early RV-8QB plan sets do not have a drawing 64. The Center Spar section is in Drawing 11. I only have the preview drawings with me at home but there is no reference to these bolts in that drawing dated 1996. I will check my full plan set next time I am at the airport to verify.

Chris
 
Read the SB and saw the reference to difficulty to access with wings installed.
I am not near my fuselage or plans but can I assume on a canoe with no wings attached yet that the inspection and installation of the missing hardware while possibly aggravating would be possible without opening holes in the skin or upper flange?
 
These Missing Bolts

were the subject of another post of mine, addressed by the Mothership about three weeks ago. I think these bolt holes were left open in case the center section was going to be used as a nose dragger, and can easily be overlooked when building a tail dragger.
If the wings are not installed it is relatively easy to use thin plywood, about the width of a yardstick, as a nut holding jig to start the nuts, with access through the wing root area. Use a little drop of superglue to hold the washer to the nut.... once started, revert to the use of a wrench to finish the torque sequence. Took all of 30 minutes. The holes in the upper cap, as shown in the service bulletin, are probably a better solution in the case of an aircraft with wings mounted and wires installed.
 
Ok, that is kind of what I was thinking it might be but not being near the project to look at it I wasn't sure.
When I got my QB fuselage I started at the beginning of the SB instructions and surveyed what had been done or not step by step over a couple days and I thought I had done a decent job but I guess I missed that because I sure don't remember looking for a dozen bolts in the spar. Makes me want to go back and do it all again to see what else I missed.
 
Read the SB and saw the reference to difficulty to access with wings installed.
I am not near my fuselage or plans but can I assume on a canoe with no wings attached yet that the inspection and installation of the missing hardware while possibly aggravating would be possible without opening holes in the skin or upper flange?

Yes, particularly if the control column is not yet installed so that you have full access through the pass through hole.
 
That is even better news. I had the control system totally fit up and installed but I have recently removed all of it in preparation of painting the interior.
Thanks Scott.
 
Yes, particularly if the control column is not yet installed so that you have full access through the pass through hole.

Going though the center or from the sides is about equally difficult. I built a tool by duct taping a wrench on a 2' stick to hold the nut in place. A piece of duct tape on the back of the wrench keeps the nut in place. Getting the washer on was a little more difficult, but I used long forceps. All this while the control column was installed.

Even with wings on, I think this could be done without resorting to cutting holes, but I'm glad I didn't have to do that.
 
JB Weld

I had to remove the gear mounts for my RV-8A, issues with the QB installation.

I made a long reach wrench by taking some square small steel tube and a cutoff box end wrench, i used JB weld and it is a permanent and strong junction. I could reach in from the wing side all the way past the middle.

Just and idea, cheap wrench from Harbor Freight.

Cheers
 
For this SB, is there a serial number range or perhaps a a kit "vintage" date? I checked my -8QB this morning, bolts were factory installed. Which is good I guess... 2004 QB fuselage, been flying for 10 years.
 
For this SB, is there a serial number range or perhaps a a kit "vintage" date? I checked my -8QB this morning, bolts were factory installed. Which is good I guess... 2004 QB fuselage, been flying for 10 years.

Me too. I confirmed today my late 2008 QB (delivery date of fuselage)also had the bolts installed.
 
The earlier (pre-2006, pre-punched) 8's came with factory rivets installed in these holes. I called vans and they said this was ok.
 
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Center Section Bolts

The earlier (pre-2006, pre-punched) 8's came with factory rivets installed in these holes. I called vans and they said this was ok.

Be careful with this assumption. My 2003 QB had the open holes that needed the fasteners installed.

Skylor
RV-8
 
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My 2002 kit

had the open holes. I guess it is a pre-punch kit, it for sure is not a quick build. I am noting a lot of variability in the reports from the field here.
 
Does this apply to "A" Models

The SB does not mention RV-8A but it also does not say that it does not apply. My guess is that it does not apply (NA) since these holes are used to attach the main gear weld-mounts.

I want to confirm so that I don't make a needless compliance entry into my aircraft records.

Cheers
 
The SB does not mention RV-8A but it also does not say that it does not apply. My guess is that it does not apply (NA) since these holes are used to attach the main gear weld-mounts.

I want to confirm so that I don't make a needless compliance entry into my aircraft records.

Cheers

The assumption is that if an RV-8A hasn't lost its main gear legs that the bolts are likely installed. :rolleyes:

If it applied to both it would say RV-8 and RV-8A
 
The earlier (pre-2006, pre-punched) 8's came with factory rivets installed in these holes. I called vans and they said this was ok.

Thanks for posting this Tracy. My -8QB kit was delivered March, 1999. It has rivets installed, no bolts. I spent about three hours going through the SB, my drawings, and a special trip to the hangar to inspect my spar looking for these bolts. Obviously no luck finding the bolts or empty holes since they weren't a part of the spar design at that time. So why the discrepancy on dates and results as reported in this thread? That's a mystery.

P.S. If it helps my serial number is 80898, first kit order in December 1998.

Chris
 
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Are there possibly some cherry max rivets that could be used here? I have open holes. Obviously missed this step in the manual and am lothe to drill holes to access the nuts.
 
I checked mine today (QB) about 6 years old and the bolts are missing, i also checked a slow build in the hangar thats about 10 years old and the 4 outside bolts were missing, so its not just QB kits affected!
 
SB done, in a flying one.

An SB is always an important thing and we have a big fortune that Van's give us this service.

My 8 is flying from 2010, serial 82317 (January 2007), is the one of the last QB not PP from mothership.

During the construction I put the central 8 bolts as per manual and lost the 4 external one - the worst. These are probably in my Open Item list (mind) never written :( [you forget, planes don't]

Was time for acting. Not so happy to drill big holes into my upper flange, I applied my strategy.

1) make the spar hole control column passage accessible. So remove front floor completely, aileron push-pull tube bolts, spring from aileron trim, front and aft sticks.

2) In my ground adjustable rudder pedals is necessary to remove the four bolts that hold the rudder pedals to the floor (so I was able to slip the control column under them to remove it).

3) The missed bolts will go from aft to fwd (easier option).

4) I put the borescope into the hole that I had to reach with the bolt.

5) With a lot of DIY momentary tools and looking into the borescope monitor I centered all four bolts (no its not easy but doable, I had 32 to 36 F° into the hangar)

6) Applying the same DIY activity I was able to reach the bolts head with a wrench. Now using the torque wrench into the nuts was a piece of cake.

I had the opportunity to check a lot of hidden places, clean everything with deep inspection activity and I took the option to trash the brake reservoir line for two brand new Fluid Reservoir small tanks that are waiting to be installed.

Total time spent : 15 hours.

"Anything... you would have done differently if you... had to do it again? Yes. I would've done it in July" - Jeff Skiles from "Sully".
 
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big holes

...Was time for acting. Not so happy to drill big holes into my upper flange, I applied my strategy. ...
Ciao Luca! Thanks for the writeup. I've been traveling since the SB came out so I have not been able to look at my QB to see if it applies.

So, it seems that you did not need to drill the big holes to apply the SB? If so, that's going to be a big relief to a lot of -8 owners!
 
Hi Mike ! No bottom/top 1" holes in my plane. Hope this helps.

It's not a big deal.

Ciao

Ciao Luca! Thanks for the writeup. I've been traveling since the SB came out so I have not been able to look at my QB to see if it applies.

So, it seems that you did not need to drill the big holes to apply the SB? If so, that's going to be a big relief to a lot of -8 owners!
 
Does Not Apply To -8A

Called Vans yesterday afternoon to ask if SB applied to -8A. They said it did not.

I checked anyway - bolts were installed.
 
data point

My RV-8QB 82007 from 2003 had all the bolts in - no action needed.
 
SB Complete

I saw the Service Bulletin Tuesday evening and emailed it to my partner. Next morning Mitch said "I'll bet money those bolts are not in there". A quick inspection revealed 12 missing bolts in the center section. The fuselage QB kit was delivered in August of 2014. The aircraft is nearly complete, the wings have been on since January. I had just installed floor pans, carpet and seats the day before in preparation for W&B - bummer.
I removed the seats, some carpet and the seat ramp to gain access to the spar center section.
Removed aileron tubes from the control column.
Fuel line adel clamps forward of the spar were removed.
10 of the 12 bolts, nuts and washers were installed using magnets, mechanical fingers, mirrors, modified hemostats, Garmin camera and a borescope.
The two upper-outboard bolts proved so difficult we elected to drill the two upper holes described in the SB. A 7/8" diameter hole was sufficient. Measure carefully if you elect to drill! The hole should fall centered between the two thick spar bars.
Bought 3' of 3/4" clear tubing and taped to the vacuum hose to clean the metal chips out of the center section.
If the control column is removed I think the job would be a bit easier.
I estimate the job took about 12 hours.
 
For Vans data collectors..

I ordered my QB on 14 Jan 2008 and it was delivered the following May. All bolt are there.
 
I should have my -8QB Fuse delivered from the mothership sometime in the next week or two..

Can I assume this would have been rectified at Vans before delivery???
 
Mine were missing

I can see how this omission might occur. My RV-8 QB fuselage was delivered in early 2007 and the bolts were missing. I noted the empty holes and subsequently installed the required bolts during early fuselage work. I recently went through my drawings and the manual locating the critical info on bottom of my page 8-2 and referencing drawings 30 & 30A. My drawings did not include DWG 64 and the manual page noted in the SB covered another topic.
 
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Quick Build

I should have my -8QB Fuse delivered from the mothership sometime in the next week or two..

Can I assume this would have been rectified at Vans before delivery???

On my 2003 QB fuselage, the quick build fuselage checklist included installation of these fasteners as one of the items that needed to be performed by the builder. Realistically, even though you have a quick build kit, you are the manufacturer of record so it is your responsibility to verify ALL plans and instruction items are installed and completed properly. It is a little alarming to me that these kinds of things are consistently being overlooked by builders. Also, don't assume that factory installed fasteners are fully torqued.

I'm aware of at least one builder that failed to install the cockpit side rail rivets that attach the front seat back weldment and doublers. He discovered the omission after the canopy tracks were installed and knowingly left them out because he didn't want to take the time to remove the rails and properly install the rivets :eek::mad::eek::mad:

Skylor
 
Skylor, you are correct in that we ARE builders here. This QB Fuse is my first QB experience, so still not knowing fully what to expect until it arrives. That said, if it is clearly in the instructions about installing this hardware, then it should be a no brainer.

Certainly, with this SB out now, it will clearly be on my radar early on in the fuse project!

I will let everyone know what is or is not done already about this when this kit shows up in the next week or two...
 
Well apparently I'm an idiot because I missed the bolts. Didn't track down whether the plans or instructions were clear so I would have an excuse as that just doesn't matter. The bolt holes were empty.

Yesterday, Ron Moring made the trip via automobile to lend a hand. I worked at it for probably an hour before he got there taking out the interior, floor plans and such then Ron and I probably were after it for 6.5 hours before all 12 bolts were in, then it was time for pizza and beer! I still have to put the innards back together so you can add that time.

We drilled the holes in the top of the box. The service bulletin shows one on each side, top and bottom towards the outer holes, and I assume the idea would be to remove the control column or have really tiny hands to work through the hole in the spar carry through where column goes through. That wasn't going to get it so we drilled 2 additional holes in the top of the box to facilitate that. Didn't want to drill holes through the bottom skin.

We fished the nuts through the holes with a heavy piece of copper wire wrapped around the nut and being hot glued together with the washer. Ron's idea and it worked well, even for the bottom bolts. Then, with a variety of wrenches and a ground down crow's foot we were able to hold the inside nuts while the bolts were torqued. McGuyver would have been proud.

Some of you will no doubt be convinced that the additional holes in the top of the box will cause a catastrophic failure that will find me in a ball of fire in the middle of a corn field, so please, don't ride with me.

My kit was one of the last QB's built before the -1 (serial 82898)and even though the -1 was available, i took it as Van's offered me a $500 discount to get it off their inventory. A decision I've regretted quite a number of times.

My thanks to Ron for his help and enginuity.
 
Never Mind!! Right after I posted this...'Light dawned over Marblehead' and I went out and tried different combinations of bolts in the various holes until I got them to fit.:)
 
Well apparently I'm an idiot because I missed the bolts. Didn't track down whether the plans or instructions were clear so I would have an excuse as that just doesn't matter. The bolt holes were empty.

Yesterday, Ron Moring made the trip via automobile to lend a hand. I worked at it for probably an hour before he got there taking out the interior, floor plans and such then Ron and I probably were after it for 6.5 hours before all 12 bolts were in, then it was time for pizza and beer! I still have to put the innards back together so you can add that time.

We drilled the holes in the top of the box. The service bulletin shows one on each side, top and bottom towards the outer holes, and I assume the idea would be to remove the control column or have really tiny hands to work through the hole in the spar carry through where column goes through. That wasn't going to get it so we drilled 2 additional holes in the top of the box to facilitate that. Didn't want to drill holes through the bottom skin.

We fished the nuts through the holes with a heavy piece of copper wire wrapped around the nut and being hot glued together with the washer. Ron's idea and it worked well, even for the bottom bolts. Then, with a variety of wrenches and a ground down crow's foot we were able to hold the inside nuts while the bolts were torqued. McGuyver would have been proud.

Some of you will no doubt be convinced that the additional holes in the top of the box will cause a catastrophic failure that will find me in a ball of fire in the middle of a corn field, so please, don't ride with me.

My kit was one of the last QB's built before the -1 (serial 82898)and even though the -1 was available, i took it as Van's offered me a $500 discount to get it off their inventory. A decision I've regretted quite a number of times.

My thanks to Ron for his help and enginuity.


Jesse, my QB is serial number 81592 shipped in 2001 and Vans says that my wing is a -1. Are you sure yours is not?
 
Status report on SB

With trepidation I went to the hanger last weekend to check on the studs of the mystery bolts. My 8 has been done since 11/13 and is serial number 81415. The bolts were there; lucky me (in a sick way I was looking forward to taking it apart and trying to construct tools to get the nuts on). I did pull out the plan page, drawing #11 (older kit) and read thru the construction manual - there is no call out for these bolts on the drawing or reference to them in the construction manual. Clearly I got lucky and they were installed.

Good luck to the builders who get to do this SB.

Blue skies...

Doug
 
Well I feel better.
I stole an hour this afternoon and stopped by the hangar to take a look at my canoe. I did not have bolts in the holes but when I went back through the build manual to take a look at my initial QB survey work I found the instructions to install the bolts had a big yellow highlight and a note to myself to check if anything was supposed to be attached to these bolts before installing. Then later in the manual at the wing attach instructions I found a big note to myself that says "12 bolts from page 8-10, Dwg 64."
Big picture, I did not have the bolts but I did notice them not installed in my initial survey and would have caught it as the build continued.
 
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Jesse, my QB is serial number 81592 shipped in 2001 and Vans says that my wing is a -1. Are you sure yours is not?

Actually, now that I think about it, the kit/builder number is assigned when you buy the empennage, (or whatever package you buy first) so it would have nothing to do with the vintage of the qb wings or fuse. I would think those don't get numbers assigned until someone actually buys them.
 
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Jesse, my QB is serial number 81592 shipped in 2001 and Vans says that my wing is a -1. Are you sure yours is not?

On an RV-8 (or A), the designation of -1 means different things for the fuselage and wings.
There are a lot of 8's and 8A's that were built with a -1 wing but not a -1 fuselage.

A -1 wing means it is a wing kit after the date which 7 and 8 wing kits were being delivered with many parts common between them. The wing spars are basically the same, with the only significant difference being in the bolt hole pattern for attachment to the fuselage (so the wing kits are not interchangeable to a 7 or 8 fuselage). because of some minor changes in the wing spar at this point, an RV-8 with -1 wing got a 50 lb increase in approved aerobatic gross weight but the max. gross weight stayed the same.

A -1 fuselage means it is a fully match hole/prepunched fuselage kit (introduced sometime around 2005), vs a non match hole kit where for the most part only the skins were prepunched.
 
On an RV-8 (or A), the designation of -1 means different things for the fuselage and wings.
There are a lot of 8's and 8A's that were built with a -1 wing but not a -1 fuselage.

A -1 wing means it is a wing kit after the date which 7 and 8 wing kits were being delivered with many parts common between them. The wing spars are basically the same, with the only significant difference being in the bolt hole pattern for attachment to the fuselage (so the wing kits are not interchangeable to a 7 or 8 fuselage). because of some minor changes in the wing spar at this point, an RV-8 with -1 wing got a 50 lb increase in approved aerobatic gross weight but the max. gross weight stayed the same.

A -1 fuselage means it is a fully match hole/prepunched fuselage kit (introduced sometime around 2005), vs a non match hole kit where for the most part only the skins were prepunched.

Good to know! Thanks.
 
Not if you built it and you know you put them in. Otherwise, yes, check. Very easy to do with a flashlight and an inspection mirror. Pretty cheap peace of mind.
 
It is silly that they don't install these bolts during the quickbuild process when access is much easier. As noted by many posters, this was overlooked during construction so just think about how many folks out there are not on VAF and will not get the message. Vans has taken on a huge risk by not being proactive and thinking through this easily overlooked construction detail by not having them installed during the quick build construction.
 
Builder 80977 looks like no holes just rivets.

SL%2016-12-16


I'm not sure why they won't link? Uploaded them to my photobucket account, copied the link, click the insert image icon, paste the link, click ok to embed the image???????????

http://s776.photobucket.com/user/kevinfas/library/RV8/SL 16-12-16
 
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These bolts are too big

OK...let's REALLY open up a can of worms, and ask for opinions on these puppies! :eek:

http://www.peerlessaerospace.com/Productimages/MG_VISULOK.pdf

My buddies and I made a group order of these expensive bolts, thinking it was the "smart way to go". They can be installed like blind rivets; you only need access to one side of the material. Seemed too good to be true...and it was. We've discovered,...now that we have the bolts in hand, that they do not fit through the holes! They are about 6/1000 too big.
To ream, or not to ream...that is the question.
 
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