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New afp fuel pump picture ?

Lan Vinh Do

Well Known Member
I am upgrading my fuel pump in my rv-10 for the new style of airflowperformance aux fuel pump.

Anybody have this setup and picture to give me idea for the plumbing in a rv-10.

Thank you
 
I am upgrading my fuel pump in my rv-10 for the new style of airflowperformance aux fuel pump.

Anybody have this setup and picture to give me idea for the plumbing in a rv-10.

Thank you

I have the older style, so I can't provide a photo of the newer one.

Have you given Don Rivera a call? Knowing Don, he usually has installation photos on everything. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have one for the pump in a RV-10.
 
Again---I wish I had pics of all the different install stuff we've done over the years.
The new version AFP pump is easier!. And-if you screw the filter in the pump supply port, it saves several connections, AND still fits in the stock brackets!
Tom
 
Not sure if this helps, but I did my plumbing over the weekend. I decided not to attache the filter directly to the pump since it will get pulled every year, if I mess up a flare to a nipple that is easier to fix than the end of the pump or filter, just my thoughts. Let me know if you can't see the link. I also replaced the nipple in the bottom of the valve with a straight one, instead of the 45 Van's supplied in the kit.

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Loop between the fuel pump output and the flowscan?

That is what i was looking for. I was thinking like you to put the pump vertical.

I was wandering if i should do another loop after the fuel pump to have the 5 inch straight before the fuel flow sensor. In my actual setup, i have higher fuel flow when the pump is on probably because of the turbulance ( i have the flowscan and not the Redcube
 
That is what i was looking for. I was thinking like you to put the pump vertical.

I was wandering if i should do another loop after the fuel pump to have the 5 inch straight before the fuel flow sensor. In my actual setup, i have higher fuel flow when the pump is on probably because of the turbulance ( i have the flowscan and not the Redcube

I thought I had a better picture of the front connection, if you want more pics let me know, you can kind of see how I looped the pump to the red cube. I couldn't find a spec on needing so many inches of straight before the sensor. I have a friend with the red cube in the same spot and he just has a loop to it like I have and we haven't seen any issues with reporting to the screens.

v-Bv0-fbylJ9lINdTKhqcvlaLYF8oJUvT4IzSZpVeZ1j6hW5NNVwcdYMtX4P0LJw00wm4_gDi8EFiPE8N0gtZWi3JikTrQMiMERgLtWd5-BJoDzX-LtME3RMYaUNL5grdBHzM-wwCJlsScHu14Ff02Lsnh8n9JcgIY40YL27MeACmmnbzBh6PkyI0PKIUMXRZVN1qiJPeokJ5jCW0IsBVlaK8Taa3ODQjZ2wAsDDJI-6aUBeg_4L0MjgUaNfUvVUvZHyliQ8krVXiW4UgZBFTSGMCt5anxgITpWZsPpnPOsaEukTDKou6gLEKA1AgdG4N0gsuKakQiu4lb5mpaA8F4dkuOaKrFRtlqUMpb0jbhPvR54bLc9jIGtsJtUCvzrcR4cEnxVjnniit1eOK8TOFR5qqvyG240WgshbTTg3KwpyeG7DiKK4PliLHTV_Q4qTHmMcX64aQorECrfYG0cYHvhjiCtUoz-VMUGAVgzr2zed9mhKzTQUedSWY485sYQfEeBhPbjOgedwKY6p2G2nJGpJGkfbiE_LgKyif1KtT6obNUweAldFd6YbHPDbcB6BBPLqNmDfJM2ljakqQkLyQhO_0it4spXysQsxx0ti4Qq0Dwfu7LfVg_AtUki0ddp2xKzT48IrGsNu5K4gAeQDMXzeiXHFNUWANt0rOZdhwX4=w596-h794-no
 
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Can't see the last picture

I can't see your last picture. I am on my phone. I will try to see it at home on my computer. If you have more pictures you can send it to me.
Thank you very much for your help.
 
I'll take a few more tonight and send them to you.

I can't see your last picture. I am on my phone. I will try to see it at home on my computer. If you have more pictures you can send it to me.
Thank you very much for your help.
 
I don't know if I see the picture but do you have teflon tape on your transducer connection ? If yes I think we are not supposed to use Teflon tape on fuel line.

Also here is the link to the transducer installation that suggest straight line of 5 inch before the sensor.

http://www.grtavionics.com/documents/EIS/fuel flow - EI FT-60.pdf

You are correct, no Teflon tape.

On the pipe threads going into the sensor, you may want to use a very small amount of thread sealant. Be sure not to get any sealant near the end of the connector. Sealant in the fuel line will cause things you don't want to happen.

On the AN fittings with the beveled end, don't use anything. Just torque them properly.
 
You might reconsider and move that flow transducer to after the engine fuel pump. If you plan for an IO engine it will fit nicely on the oil pan rail before the fuel distribution unit.

Also, urge you to perform an air pressure leak test on the tunnel fuel system. Plug off at the firewall and add appropriate adapters and pressure gage at the wing root connection to the tank. Pressurize to 30 psi close a valve and leave it over night. Do both sides of the system with the selector valve in place.

A bench test of just the fuel pump assembly may save some time. 90% probability you will find at least one leak.
 
You are correct, no Teflon tape.

On the pipe threads going into the sensor, you may want to use a very small amount of thread sealant. Be sure not to get any sealant near the end of the connector. Sealant in the fuel line will cause things you don't want to happen.

On the AN fittings with the beveled end, don't use anything. Just torque them properly.

Nope no Teflon tape, just thread sealant:
DBenglowEQwh1eLG28Uh1msOJvwRGX8CQ8axyqsP7IwxvLj_cfYgFPRxidDZ3s_CcrRJuSd8rGsRpVYrAO0MwZkyMHAR6fZAojo_w4rUHyTD_jiLGaZjhExPewEXWscBgkd4ix3vjtaxHFMdW7zaGmuI9bMhlL_QvwoJIoCGl4CThB87D6M1HVhvPUT8IVp_30eZwll3zZckI9sZMVTXDPQHHgl1K-CpwIblr_rEaWMYyApzCtGZdHoYFPL0ONOpmTcNBh9DUc_6e0taJ7KdApy5x0CtL1GxHEvt71uo1wOkgdSuenEMqXgz10XEum82JtBs8xgMu_pTo-1ru9jSHRjnp3kQWRiQiFKmbKz22FI7tXAny7NmQs1IHliHKuWHFFsdTjHTGAPBx3UTbUHda9Av_p_gzjMKCYXygGSCPMS4NxQI6_tS1-ublM4uaioILcZtDMBBJk-JJpplumcpSTES1kHQYqAbGsq1X0gsqRp_43nRfelOXlURaBpnCDKVl4nrgOkuAivdf6nOxHf-Tj9KCjidAtq4ahkLQmpruGPjBBedw-lrskerwQ6E7iOT0aYzaSF6Rdduon5ZoEf6wRLxOJG9pBAy61D1tefohPfire-i3OxYEA=w596-h794-no
 
The recommended location by AFP for the flow sensor is between after the metered output of the FI control/servo. This provides the most accurate reading.

Having installed a JPI 830 on a carb'd engine, they required it to be after the mechanical fuel pump and above the carb.
 
I would consider making some changes. Please. With the loops in the suction lines where is a possibility of trapping air in the tops of the loops between the filter and the pump. Also excess tubing can pick up more heat from the tunnel and transfer it to the fuel. You'd be surprised at how low the fuel flow is in those 3/8" lines during cruise. Plenty of time for the fuel to get warm. I actually put Firesleeve on my fuel lines inside the tunnel. I just replaced my old style AFP pump with the new style, and by using a Phoeinx coupling available at Spruce I was able to keep the pump in line with the filter using the same hose clamp arrangement and only needed to fabricate a new line from the fuel valve to the inlet of the pump. Heating those lines on the suction side is only asking for trouble. If you were to get a vapor lock in one of those loops, there's a good chance that the suction from the pump would not be able to overcome it, resulting in fuel starvation to the engine.

Here's the fitting:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/phenixadapt8.php?clickkey=81861

It's a lot shorter than you can make at home. :)


Also, you might consider moving the flow meter to the engine side, between the servo and the flow divider. The flow meter in the tunnel can be an issue with pressure drop on the suction side of the engine pump and incorrect or fluctuating readings in flight. When I moved mine after 1000 hours in the tunnel I was amazed at how much more accurate the sensor became, and it never changes with activation of the fuel pump.

Vic
 
for whats its worth dept--

I agree with Vic on the rigid tubing. NOT the use of rigid tubing, but the tall loops. Remember that once the boost pump is turned off, the mechanical pump need to draw the fuel from the tanks, through the valve, filter and pump, and the associated plumbing. Tall loops will make a big elevation change, and make the pump work harder. ( Note--for you RV7/9 builders, that why we like to use the upper holes in the spar brackets--they are more inline with the tanks, and alot less elevation change.) Greater 'possibility' of fuel stalling in the lines.

Again-- my 2 cents worth.
Tom
 
my new set-up afp new style will be and removing the fuel flow

After reading all that, i will go really simple. I have 2 new bracket for fuel pump and filter. Everything will be inline from the selector to the filter, to the fuel pump.

I am a little bit limited on the fuel line from the selector to the filter because de original builder have put the fuel valve very lower than the plan ( can't put a straight or 45 deg fitting)

I can now move everything forward because i decide TO REMOVE THE FUEL FLOW SENSOR FROM THE TUNEL so i have more space and less plumbing. I will install it as recommended between the servo and flow divider. Still need to think about the best way to install it there.

I also copy a email that i received from Don at Airflow performance. Always helpful. Good reliable information. Always had good services with him.

I would also not put the flow meter in the tunnel. This gives incorrect fuel flow readings when the boost pump is turned on and puts additional pressure drop on the suction side of the engine pump that can lead to vapor problems, fluctuating fuel pressure or loss of fuel pressure. And the 5? of straight tubing before the flow meter is not necessary. The correct location for the flow meter is between the fuel control (metered fuel hose) and flow divider. Always install straight fittings in the flow meter (AN816-4-4D). If you need to curve the hose then use a full flow fitting on the hose fitting. I have used full flow fittings (45?s and 90?s ) on one or both ends with excellent results. Do not attach the flow meter directly to the engine. Let the hoses support the flow meter. This keeps engine vibration from wearing out the flow meter bearings.

for the pump :
You can also attached the filter directly to the inlet of the pump inlet manifold thus eliminating another connection
Don Rivera
 
After reading all that, i will go really simple. I have 2 new bracket for fuel pump and filter. Everything will be inline from the selector to the filter, to the fuel pump.

I am a little bit limited on the fuel line from the selector to the filter because de original builder have put the fuel valve very lower than the plan ( can't put a straight or 45 deg fitting)

I can now move everything forward because i decide TO REMOVE THE FUEL FLOW SENSOR FROM THE TUNEL so i have more space and less plumbing. I will install it as recommended between the servo and flow divider. Still need to think about the best way to install it there.

I also copy a email that i received from Don at Airflow performance. Always helpful. Good reliable information. Always had good services with him.

I would also not put the flow meter in the tunnel. This gives incorrect fuel flow readings when the boost pump is turned on and puts additional pressure drop on the suction side of the engine pump that can lead to vapor problems, fluctuating fuel pressure or loss of fuel pressure. And the 5? of straight tubing before the flow meter is not necessary. The correct location for the flow meter is between the fuel control (metered fuel hose) and flow divider. Always install straight fittings in the flow meter (AN816-4-4D). If you need to curve the hose then use a full flow fitting on the hose fitting. I have used full flow fittings (45?s and 90?s ) on one or both ends with excellent results. Do not attach the flow meter directly to the engine. Let the hoses support the flow meter. This keeps engine vibration from wearing out the flow meter bearings.

for the pump :
You can also attached the filter directly to the inlet of the pump inlet manifold thus eliminating another connection
Don Rivera

That's kind of what I did. Using an example in the EI install manual, http://buy-ei.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/II-FP-5.pdf?x57196 , I placed my Red Cube in the fuel line from the engine fuel pump to the throttle body roughly midway between the 2 using just the hoses to support it. I used steel AN816 fittings and covered the whole shooting match with a fire sleeve from ACS: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/gbfireslvft.php?clickkey=4118
 
I would consider making some changes. Please. With the loops in the suction lines where is a possibility of trapping air in the tops of the loops between the filter and the pump. Also excess tubing can pick up more heat from the tunnel and transfer it to the fuel. You'd be surprised at how low the fuel flow is in those 3/8" lines during cruise. Plenty of time for the fuel to get warm. I actually put Firesleeve on my fuel lines inside the tunnel. I just replaced my old style AFP pump with the new style, and by using a Phoeinx coupling available at Spruce I was able to keep the pump in line with the filter using the same hose clamp arrangement and only needed to fabricate a new line from the fuel valve to the inlet of the pump. Heating those lines on the suction side is only asking for trouble. If you were to get a vapor lock in one of those loops, there's a good chance that the suction from the pump would not be able to overcome it, resulting in fuel starvation to the engine.

Here's the fitting:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/phenixadapt8.php?clickkey=81861

It's a lot shorter than you can make at home. :)


Also, you might consider moving the flow meter to the engine side, between the servo and the flow divider. The flow meter in the tunnel can be an issue with pressure drop on the suction side of the engine pump and incorrect or fluctuating readings in flight. When I moved mine after 1000 hours in the tunnel I was amazed at how much more accurate the sensor became, and it never changes with activation of the fuel pump.

Vic

I do like the looks of that phoenix fitting, I might have to try that out. I've flown a good bit in a 10 with the red cube in this same set-up and the meter has never been a problem and the fuel flow seems to be dead on when it says we burned 30 gallons it takes 30 gallons to fill it back up, not sure how much more accurate it could be, what am I missing?

Lynn
 
With the loops in the suction lines where is a possibility of trapping air in the tops of the loops between the filter and the pump.

The fuel valve is mounted up higher than the top of the loop that you are referring to. Why is it recommended to remove the height of the loop, but not to lower the fuel valve?

Thanks!
Andrew Anunson
 
The fuel valve is mounted up higher than the top of the loop that you are referring to. Why is it recommended to remove the height of the loop, but not to lower the fuel valve?

Thanks!
Andrew Anunson

The height of the fuel valve has been lowered in later kits. Although the length of tubing to the valve is not nearly the length of 2 of those loops in the pictured setup.
The exposure of that lenght of tubing in the tunnel with the heated airduct going right by it is also complicating the situation.

It may work MOST of the time, but all you really need is the right combination of a takeoff in hot weather after a fuel stop, with the fuel on the ground already at 100+ degrees in some tanks, and inadvertaently leave the fuel pump off (or it fails), and things could get dicey in a hurry. With so many airplanes, especially RV10's changing hands these days, an airplane built in the NW or NE with this configuration MAY never see a problem. Then it is sold owner in the desert SW and conditions are totally different. There the problem could rear its ugly head to an unsuspecting pilot at the worst possible time. Or the current owner takes a vacation to a nice hot spot that is much different than what the conditions were when it was tested during Phase I.

I have completed a few airplalnes during the cold season, and I was always on "pins and needles" during the first hot season. And I've always run the airplanes up to max altitude under the hottest conditions to at least satisfy myself that it worked successfully at least once.

Most of the engine failures today associated with AB aircraft are caused by changes in the fuel system or vents. So this is one area where I tend to preach caution when there are changes.

Vic
 
new setup with the airflow performance

So i went very simple.
I move everything forward. I had to add 2 new bracket for the fuel pump and filter right in front of the older one.

Like this, i can go straight from the fuel selector to the filter.
I also end up putting the filter directly on the pump. ( will add a flex hose later from selector to the filter for easier filter removal. )

After removing the fuel flow, i only have another line going directly from the pump to the firewall.
So total of only 2 new line ( many removed) all straight. I have put a firesleeve on the hose near the hot air duct.

Did the air pressure test. Found 2 small leak on the gascolator.

Thank you everyone for your help.

https://goo.gl/photos/E7rPELjrZDUfVzpc7

E7rPELjrZDUfVzpc7
 
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Here's what I did

http://[URL=http://s377.photobucket.com/user/scorwin75/media/2015-10/90C44CE5-6F79-4042-AC22-571A057F2803_zpstqfggtwl.jpg.html]
90C44CE5-6F79-4042-AC22-571A057F2803_zpstqfggtwl.jpg


Attach the filter directly to the pump using the existing brackets per Tom.

Red cube engine mounted by the way
 
I do like the looks of that phoenix fitting, I might have to try that out. I've flown a good bit in a 10 with the red cube in this same set-up and the meter has never been a problem and the fuel flow seems to be dead on when it says we burned 30 gallons it takes 30 gallons to fill it back up, not sure how much more accurate it could be, what am I missing?

Lynn

If you have good fuel pressure (w/o boost pump) up to 15k, or so, then you are probably not missing anything.
 
Modification to the fuel filter fitting

Here is a copy of the email i sent to Don and his answer for people who screw tne fuel filter directly

Hi Don.
I followed all your advice
Smal strait line direct from the selector to the filter.
i have put the filter directly on the fuel pump. ( removed the fitting from the fuel pump and transferred the o ring on the filter fitting. )
removed the fuel flow sensor so i only have another line that go directly to the firewall ( gascolator in canada : ( )

I read in your instruction that i should have call you before removing the fitting from the pump. Is it OK?



Thank You again for your advice

Vinh


Much cleaner and simpler wouldn?t you say? The only thing we do is cut the flare section off the fitting on the filter that screws into the manifold so that it does not obstruct flow into the pump side of the manifold.

Don Rivera
 
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