What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Teen Flight (teenagers building an RV-12)

DeltaRomeo

doug reeves: unfluencer
Staff member
....questions about the Teen Flight program posted here will be answered by one of the program mentors.


Additional Info On 'Teen Flight' ...courtesy Scott McDaniels
"A few more factoids to go along with the article written by Van about the 'Teen Flight' program in the new RVator (page 7)"
  1. We have 12 teens ranging from 14 to 17 years old.
  2. All boys (I got no interest from any girls other Ken K's, and my daughters, but they were not quite old enough).
  3. The teens have a wide range in their level of interest in aviation...a couple have taken some flight training. A couple of others were just recently introduced through a Young Eagles flight. The rest fall somewhere in between.
  4. There is a somewhat equal mix of school backgrounds with some home schooled, some in alternative schools, and some in public schools.
  5. They are all very sharp kids. They learn quickly, and are already very knowledgeable about all the different aircraft rivets and hardware, the different drill bit sizes associated with that hardware, etc.
  6. There are about 20 mentors involved. 10 or so are on a regular rotation schedule and the rest are standby or special projects (videography and photography).
  7. Every attempt is made to keep the teens doing all of the work with the mentors supervising, and demonstrating how to do something when needed.
  8. I hope to have a completed and ready to fly RV-12 by the end of the traditional school year. Considering our progress so far it looks doable.
  9. We have a blog that we are trying to keep up to date with the progress we make each week. The address is www.teenflight.blogspot.com
    - One of the secondary goals is to document the program as much as possible to make it easier for someone else to repeat the program if the were interested in doing something like this (an EAA chapter, RV builders group, etc.)


 
Last edited:
credit toward an A&P

As I understand the FAA does not allow time spent working on Experimentals to be applied to the work experience portion of an A&P license. Can experience building an LSA be applied toward an A&P license?
 
As I understand the FAA does not allow time spent working on Experimentals to be applied to the work experience portion of an A&P license. Can experience building an LSA be applied toward an A&P license?

Even if an RV-12 is built as recommended by Van's Aircraft it is still an experimental category aircraft but it is experimental LSA instead of experimental amateur built.

It has been a while since I looked at the rules regarding using work experience to meet the training requirements to be eligible to take the written and practical tests for an A&P license, but I don't remember it specifically stating that work on experimentals would not qualify, just that the work has to be under the tutelage/supervision of a certificated mechanic.

This seems to be one of those areas where it depends on what FSDO office you are working with and what FAA person you are talking too. I know of a number of people that have received their A&P this way, and a few that were told it wasn't possible.
 
Regardless of the A&P question ...

Regardless of the A&P question it is a fantastic experience that you are providing these young people. I do not mean "fun" or "cool" or any trivial thing equivalent to watching television. This is the experience of creation. It's a wonderful thing you are doing.

Bob Axsom
 
Regardless of the A&P question it is a fantastic experience that you are providing these young people. I do not mean "fun" or "cool" or any trivial thing equivalent to watching television. This is the experience of creation. It's a wonderful thing you are doing.

Bob Axsom

I'll second that...Scott was also very unselfish in keeping us "old" people on track when we were building our 12's. Everytime we would question some engineering wisdom and threaten to be smarter, he would step in and say, "did you consider...." Thanks Scott
 
Replace the RV-12 with "J-3 Cub" and what you have is the same kind of outstanding opportunity that I was given at age 13 by an FBO who formed an Explorer post to get teens involved in aviation - almost four decades ago! It worked then, it will work now! I know several of the kids in my group went on to aviation carers - probably 20% - and that is a huge number taken in context. I could never have afforded to get involved in "Real Airplanes" without the opportunity - I think EVERY city should have a program like this - maybe our looming pilot shortage would be averted.

Great program!
 
I'll second that...Scott was also very unselfish in keeping us "old" people on track when we were building our 12's. Everytime we would question some engineering wisdom and threaten to be smarter, he would step in and say, "did you consider...." Thanks Scott

Us young guys too! :eek:


;)


This is an excellent idea. One that I will explore for my next RV-12 build. I would love to get some of the local high schoolers involved in pulling rivets and deburring, not as slave labor, but like Paul said, it is a great opportunity. Taking kids for rides in airplanes might be fun, but we need to get them involved, with hands on.
 
Last edited:
Blog updated...

The Teen flight blog has been brought up to date and more photo's will be posted soon.

www.teenflight.blogspot.com

The team took a break this past Saturday for the Thanksgiving holiday weekend but they will be back at it this coming Saturday
 
Sponsors

Scott,

Any chance you have web address' for any of the other sponsors (besides Vans and Avery's) so that we could let them each know how much we appreciate their participation in two things so many of us are passionate about: kids and flying.
 
Scott,

Any chance you have web address' for any of the other sponsors (besides Vans and Avery's) so that we could let them each know how much we appreciate their participation in two things so many of us are passionate about: kids and flying.

Sorry I don't.

I think you (or anyone else that was interested) could post a comment on the blog. Many of the donors are monitoring the progress via the blog and would see it there.

It would be great if you did that...the reality is that the program wouldn't be happening if they hadn't come through with the funding.
 
Looking good! I put an article on the group in our last Chapter newsletter!

www.eaa75.com Feb 2010.

Thanks Marty, for spreading the word about our program.

As you mentioned in your article, our hope is that there will be other people who will develop enough interest that they will start similar programs elsewhere (we hope to be able to provide them with program materials to make that easier). Hopefully in the future their will be a bunch of teens getting exposed to this hobby we all enjoy...if flying for fun is going to survive for future generations, we need to find ways to get the future generations interested.
 
Silly Question...

Hello There!

Although I understand (and support) the "educational" benefit of the group build approach, I have to wonder about the repairman's certificate, and also about how the FAA will view the concept, insofar as the 51% rule applies.

I'd love to hear your comments... Thanks!

John Slemp
 
John,
These are Experimental Light-Sport aircraft. The 51% rule does not apply.
Also, the repairman certificate is available to the owner after he/she completes an approved training course.
 
Hello There!

Although I understand (and support) the "educational" benefit of the group build approach, I have to wonder about the repairman's certificate, and also about how the FAA will view the concept, insofar as the 51% rule applies.

I'd love to hear your comments... Thanks!

John Slemp

John,
These are Experimental Light-Sport aircraft. The 51% rule does not apply.
Also, the repairman certificate is available to the owner after he/she completes an approved training course.

Like Mel already pointed out, as long as an RV-12 is built meeting the requirements to make it eligible to be certificated as an E-LSA (versus an experimental amateur built) aircraft, the 51% rule does not apply. In fact a person can legally build an E-LSA RV-12 for another person and be paid for his work.

BTW, their is nothing in the rules preventing an experimental amateur built airplane from being built by a group of people just like the teen flight project is. The only requirement is that proof can be provided to show that all party's involved did it for their own education and recreation...that no one was paid for doing any work (at least none beyond what is allowed to meet the work completion requirements as outlined in Form 8000-38).

Eligibility for the repairman's certificate is an entirely different issue. A selected person from the group would have to be able to demonstrate to a DAR's satisfaction that he is familiar with all of the aspects of this particular airplane to the extent that he can properly perform a condition inspection.

For the E-LSA RV-12, a Light Sport Repairman Inspector rating is the required level of certification needed to be allowed to sign off a condition inspection. This can not be obtained just by completing construction of the airplane. It requires taking a 16 hr course. If every member of a builders group wanted to be able to sign off the condition inspection, all they need to do is each take the course.

As far as maintenance and repairs go...anyone can can do that work and sign it off in the log book for the E-AB or the E-LSA airplane. The repairman's certificates mentioned above are for certification to sign off the yearly condition inspection only.
 
This can not be obtained just by completing construction of the airplane. It requires taking a 16 hr course. If every member of a builders group wanted to be able to sign off the condition inspection, all they need to do is each take the course.

Small clarification. To be eligible for the repairman certificate with inspection rating, the applicant must be a registered owner of the aircraft.
 
Small clarification. To be eligible for the repairman certificate with inspection rating, the applicant must be a registered owner of the aircraft.

Right Mel...I was assuming the context of all members of a builders group working together constructing an RV-12 that they would all be partner/owners in.
 
Progress

Scott,

What a wonderful program and opportunity for these kids. Are the kids going to be able to learn to fly in it? What is the future plan for the finished -12? You are providing an experience that is going to change the direction of some of these kids lives. Keep it up.

Richard
120002
 
Scott,

What a wonderful program and opportunity for these kids. Are the kids going to be able to learn to fly in it? What is the future plan for the finished -12? You are providing an experience that is going to change the direction of some of these kids lives. Keep it up.

Richard
120002

At this point the final outcome is a bit uncertain.

An original program goal was that at the very least each team member get an opportunity to fly in the airplane they helped build, and an extended hope that they might be able to take some primary flight training in it.

The reason for the uncertainty right now is that because of the way the sponsor nonprofit organization, (Airway Science for Kids) is structured, they can own an airplane but it can never fly while it is under their ownership because of the type of insurance they have, etc.
We still hope that another nonprofit can be established with the airplane transferred to it. The problem is that none of the people involved in this program know anything about how to do that. There is also the question of using an E-LSA airplane for flight training in an environment where the students have no ownership in the airplane...would the FAA consider that commercial use even if the use is donated to them. I have made some initial contact with someone in our local FSDO and they said they thought there was a way to structure it to make it possible but it would have to be looked at in more detail.

So to answer your question...we would like to give them an opportunity to take some training in the RV-12 (four of the twelve have already had some basic flight training varying from an intro. lesson to a few hours of dual). I think we can even get some sponsorship money to help with the cost. We just need to find a way to structure it so as to deal with the liability black cloud and satisfy the FAA.

If anyone reading this has any experience with a flying club type of organization geared specifically towards flight training for teens, I would really like to here from you. Particularly if it has operated more as a not for profit business.

Our long term dream for this program is two fold....

1. That we would succeed with the pilot project to demonstrate a way to make the program work, and use that experience to build a program documentation package that could be provided to any other EAA chapter or aviation interest group with an interest in doing something similar in ther area (kind of an outreach to support other groups in spreading the good news of sport/general aviation to young people).

2. Demonstrate the viability of the program to the point that it would enable us to acquire sponsorship for a second RV-12 kit. The construction program could then be repeated with a new group of teens while some of the team members from the first group fill some of the mentor positions in exchange for flight training in the first airplane. At the completion of the second airplane the first could be sold with the proceeds funding a kit to build a third (and probably have enough left over to help cover costs involved with giving the flight training) and then the whole process starts over again....hopefully making a self funding/perpetuating program that could go on as longs as the needed volunteers were available.

Big dreams I know, but I think it could work if it is structured properly.

Thanks for your interest, kind words, and encouragement.

It has been a big commitment of time for the past 7 months but it is very rewarding. These 12 teens have learned a lot in that amount of time, and I think any one of them could fit right in to RV-12 conversations here on VAF.
 
Contact Port Townsend Aeromuseum

If anyone reading this has any experience with a flying club type of organization geared specifically towards flight training for teens, I would really like to here from you. Particularly if it has operated more as a not for profit business.

I sent you a pm before I saw this thread. Contact Jerry at the Museum. He has ran a non profit training program with students for many years out of the Museum. If anyone knows how to put this kind of thing together, he will.
I strongly believe in these programs, anything to get kids interested in what I consider a dying "hobby". I am a life time member of the Museum and donate annualy to the program. When you get yours up and running, count me in as a donor.
 
It has been a big commitment of time for the past 7 months but it is very rewarding. These 12 teens have learned a lot in that amount of time, and I think any one of them could fit right in to RV-12 conversations here on VAF.

Bravo to all of you!

PS: What sort of primer do they prefer? :eek:
 
Inspirational!

A big hooraay to the adults giving their knowledge, time, patience and money. A bigger Hooray to the teens who appear to be very enthusiastic and interested. There is bound to be a future builder and/or pilot in this crowd of kids. Man... I sure wish I could have been involved with this sort of thing when I was in high school.
 
Questions for the group

I am a group member building an RV12 at the EAA105 hanger, Twin Oaks. It is fun to watch your progress and estimate our schedule. I am interested in the set up that you used for getting the Team Flight program established. Age of the students, how many, selection and qualifing process and how funding the cost worked out. What are the plans for the airplane when it is completed. Will it be maintained for the flight training of the student builders? How tough would it be to get another group started on a similar project in say Bend. Thanks, Paul Grimstad
 
Saw the same story this AM on Northwest Cable News. Other than the mis-identification of the model, it seemed to be a nice story. Good to see some positive aviation news.
 
I am a group member building an RV12 at the EAA105 hanger, Twin Oaks. It is fun to watch your progress and estimate our schedule. I am interested in the set up that you used for getting the Team Flight program established. Age of the students, how many, selection and qualifing process and how funding the cost worked out. What are the plans for the airplane when it is completed. Will it be maintained for the flight training of the student builders? How tough would it be to get another group started on a similar project in say Bend. Thanks, Paul Grimstad

Paul,
Thanks for your interest. I think most of your questions are answered in the first post of this thread, but I will hit on a couple that my not be.

This is a program where a few people with an interest in doing a project like this got together and made it happen. Someone took care of contacting people or foundations with aviation interests, which have the financial means to fund a project like this. All of the funding was donations made to a non profit organization that we operate the program under.
We have a desire to make it possible for the teens to at least take a flight in the airplane they built. The bigger dream is to provide them with some primary flight training in it. We are still working on the process to make that happen. The long-term goal would be to advance the program to the point where a second airplane could be funded. Some of the (now experienced) teens from the first session would act as mentors for the second session in exchange for flight training using the airplane they helped build (this would require some additional funding but I think we could acquire that). When the second airplane was completed, the first one could be sold, with the proceeds paying for a third kit and some flight training for the second session teens. From this point on the program could conceivably be self sustaining for as long as kids and mentors that want to participate, could be found.

We hope that there will be other teen flight projects in other parts of the country or around the world. The thought of a whole bunch of RV-12's being built by teens with the help of experienced RV builders and EAA chapter members is very exciting to me. It has the potential to be a shot in the arm for general aviation and flying for fun (in the context of helping to develop the next generation of pilots), and possibly aviation as a whole a number of the current teen flight participants have already decided on careers in aero engineering, aviation mechanics, missionary pilot, etc.

Personally, I think every person active in any phase of general aviation should be doing something to engage young people towards in interest in aviation. We have to be honest...flying just for the pure fun of flying is dying. It is still long from being dead, but it is dyeing a long slow death none the less. If something isn't done to turn the trend around, their will be a time in the future when general aviation is not big enough to battle the government bureaucracy that keeps trying to knock it down, nor will the industry be big enough to sustain the businesses and manufacturers that make flying for fun possible. The airlines and the military will own the skies just like in many other parts of the world already. You don?t need to do something with a whole group of kids to make a difference. Consider just mentoring one of the neighborhood kids. Invite them over to your shop and let them work on simple parts. I guarantee that when they someday get a chance to take a ride in your plane with the knowledge that they help with some of the parts, it will have a huge impact on their life. If all of us did this with just one kid some time during build of our RV project, I think it would have measurable impact on general aviation in the future.
It would be really cool if sometime in the future their was a massively long sticky thread here on VAF dedicated just to photos of all of the different kids involved in RV build projects (without even asking I know Doug would be on it in a heart beat)

Any way?got a little off track?sorry?

So the answer to your last question...we hope people will want to do a similar program where they live. I am currently working on a curriculum package that we hope to make available to anyone that has an interest in doing a similar program. It will have a bunch of info about how we structured our program and lesson and project plans for doing all of the initial training. It will eventually have a promotional DVD that can be shown to EAA chapters and other groups while building the volunteer mentor team, and show to potential donors to demonstrate that it has already been done successfully.

The goal is that with this package, some volunteers, and some donors to fund the program, anyone with a desire to make a similar program like this happen, can.

Stay tuned?.
 
King 5 news (NBC) here in the Seattle area did a news piece on Teen Flight last night on at 11PM. Good story, although they referred to the plane the kids were building as an R7. I wrote them a thank-you and correction.
Arnie

Saw the same story this AM on Northwest Cable News. Other than the mis-identification of the model, it seemed to be a nice story. Good to see some positive aviation news.

Thanks for posting this info.

Yea, I don't knwo how "RV-7" and "Van's Aviation" got into the story (it was not info I provided) but we are happy to get the exposure anyway.

It is nice to see that we are getting wider exposure than just our local station.

I would like to hear from anyone else that sees the program run on other affiliate stations around the country.
Thanks
 
I own some hangars in Southern Oregon, I think I could free one up and build something like this with local teenagers, is there some specific information I can get on how to set up the non-profit, and what are the pros/cons of doing an LLC instead? I wouldn't mind coming up there and seeing what you're doing if you're open for a nickel tour sometime. I can PM you with an e-mail address, if needed.
 
I own some hangars in Southern Oregon, I think I could free one up and build something like this with local teenagers, is there some specific information I can get on how to set up the non-profit, and what are the pros/cons of doing an LLC instead? I wouldn't mind coming up there and seeing what you're doing if you're open for a nickel tour sometime. I can PM you with an e-mail address, if needed.

Hi Cameron,
This is exactly what we are hoping will happen as a result of us doing this first pilot program....that others will have an interest in doing the same.
I have completed some work on a curriculum package that we hope to be able to provide at little or no cost to people or groups that are interested. It will outline how we ran our program from initial planning and fund raising to powerpoint presentations and other documentation that can be used for all of the work projects and training lectures. I don't yet know when this will be available.

The actual program could be organized a number of different ways, but setting up a non profit is a good way to go if you intend to solicit donations to fund the project because it then makes donations contributions tax deductible.

Setting up a visit after we get going again in September shouldn't be a problem.

If you are still interested, PM me your contact info and I get in touch.
 
Looks like a fantastic project for them to be involved with.

But having recently had 5 teenagers under one roof, who could rarely agree on anything, I am curious about something....

How is the final paint job going to be decided? :D
 
Back
Top