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Picked up an earthX LiFePo4 battery at Oshkosh

What Paul said. I'd also like to see the basic stuff -- comparison of your battery to an AGM, SLA or other more "traditional" battery chemistry including weight, capacity, cranking power, discharge characteristics, failure modes, charging requirements, etc.

Most of all I'd love to see a cutaway of an actual production unit showing how your battery is put together. That would tell me a lot of what I really want to know.
 
Thanks and great question and demo idea. Quick question, you say "Potential failure modes of common BMS's built in to some of the popular LiFePo batteries".....I do not know of any other LifePo battery in this market that has a BMS at all, let alone potential failure modes the BMS could have, can you enlighten me on the brand so we can research this?

Fly Lightly,
Kathy

I suppose I assumed that there were other players in the market sporting a BMS. This highlights my ignorance on the matter I suppose. Exactly why your presence at a forum is needed!

As far as failure modes, we can probably agree that any electronic or mechanical device CAN fail. In what ways could the EarthX BMS possibly fail? What happens if it does? With your redundant BMS's, is it completely impossible for the failure of one to take out the other? Why? What happens if it does?

Saying something cannot fail catastrophically is fine, but teaching us why it can't fail, or that when it does it's only going to cause a minor headache rather than a truly bad day, is the ticket to getting on more and more airframes. We homebuilders will eat up an education like that! :)
 
Kathy,

This sounds like it would be a great source of info and answer many questions that folks have.

Would you please make the presentation available for those unable to attend Oshkosh?

Absolutely! We are going to compile questions/answers for the forum/presentation and will be happy to share.

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
I suppose I assumed that there were other players in the market sporting a BMS. This highlights my ignorance on the matter I suppose. Exactly why your presence at a forum is needed!

As far as failure modes, we can probably agree that any electronic or mechanical device CAN fail. In what ways could the EarthX BMS possibly fail? What happens if it does? With your redundant BMS's, is it completely impossible for the failure of one to take out the other? Why? What happens if it does?

Saying something cannot fail catastrophically is fine, but teaching us why it can't fail, or that when it does it's only going to cause a minor headache rather than a truly bad day, is the ticket to getting on more and more airframes. We homebuilders will eat up an education like that! :)

Another great set of questions that I have copied into the "Questions category" to be answered.

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
What Paul said. I'd also like to see the basic stuff -- comparison of your battery to an AGM, SLA or other more "traditional" battery chemistry including weight, capacity, cranking power, discharge characteristics, failure modes, charging requirements, etc.

Most of all I'd love to see a cutaway of an actual production unit showing how your battery is put together. That would tell me a lot of what I really want to know.

Thanks Dale,

We do currently have this on our website right now but it would be great to have a slide show presentation of this as well. Thanks!

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
Kathy,

--- snip ---

Would you please make the presentation available for those unable to attend Oshkosh?

In the past, most if not all AirVenture Forums are audio recorded and available for purchase. I will pass on the link to the AirVenture Forum recordings once I pickup the info at AirVenture 2016 but it may be in another thread.

Here is a link to what Google gave me for 2015.
 
Oshkosh is around the corner but the deals are now!

It's hard to believe that Oshkosh is just around the corner! We are very excited to be in Hangar C and look forward to meeting you if we haven't already!

As you might know from past years, our booth gets very busy and it is hard sometimes to even get close to the table. We are pre-selling now with Oshkosh pricing available. The batteries do not get discounted ever....I know they are expensive but they really are priced as low as we can price them and do not ever have "sale" pricing so you know you are getting your best deal available. We do however deeply discount our accessories!! :D

Give us a call or email us to find out the pricing and place an order now if you are in the market. [email protected] or 970 674-8884.
 
"Deals" clafification from EarthX

Wow, thank you for the huge response to the previous post about Oshkosh and deals.

I want to clarify the deals.....THE BATTERIES are not discounted as they are priced year round at the lowest possible pricing.

The ACCESSORIES are discounted such as the chargers, battery boxes, LED light, and portable jump packs. For example the multi-use battery box is $59 retail but right now you can order it for $35. :D

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
Wow, thank you for the huge response to the previous post about Oshkosh and deals.

I want to clarify the deals.....THE BATTERIES are not discounted as they are priced year round at the lowest possible pricing.

The ACCESSORIES are discounted such as the chargers, battery boxes, LED light, and portable jump packs. For example the multi-use battery box is $59 retail but right now you can order it for $35. :D

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
Oh man! I just bought one of the multi-use battery boxes and put it on my plane the last week of May. :( I paid the $59 plus shipping! But then again, the battery would not fit in my existing PC680 Vans battery box so had to have it. what's a guy to do? Lose $$ here, gain $$$ there. I am sure it will all come out in the wash sometime.

Live Long and Prosper!
 
EarthX wins!

After 3.5 years on my old sealed lead battery I was experiencing slow starts. So I placed my complete package order from EarthX including their Van?s clone battery box to fit the original mounting holes, the special charger designed to reset a dead battery and the LED ?fault? warning light. The battery box is quite K.I.S.S. which I like. The special charger was a little bigger than I hoped (as I will add this to my longer overnight trip luggage) and weighed in at 1.6 pounds. But I hope to never drain the battery. As a side note there is a way described in the battery directions to reset a drained battery with another 12 volt battery, and then a "normal" charger can charge the battery in a pinch.
BTW; thank you Kathy for shipping my package so fast!
What came in my shipment;
11sglm9.jpg

Dropped into the new aluminum box the battery weighed in at only 4.4 pounds. What a difference, and so easy to pull in and out of its new home in my plane.
2njhenr.jpg

And the old anchor. Confirming as advertised 11 pound savings! A hangar neighbor, also with an RV got out his scale because he could not believe it! The EarthX box was a little lighter too as these pictures show the boxes being weighed with the batteries.
23kdjlv.jpg

I made a new Z bracket for my starter relay and master solenoid to mount to the new box.
1pggt0.jpg

And after thinking about it, I decided it would be easier and better to use my Dynon Skyview EFIS to alert me of a battery fault. This gives me a good visual scan of electrical health plus voice warning. A hook-up from the wire at the battery to a general discreet input on the Dynon EMS module is needed.
3029ht1.jpg

Operation;
When I received the new battery and charger I test charged, cell balanced and tested the charge holding capability. All this is automated with the charger and takes overnight. The next morning the charger tells you the results and battery condition, all good! Then after installation into the airplane I did some EFIS programing for about 30 minutes. So the big moment was at hand as I rolled out of the hangar! I have never had my prop spin so fast or the engine start so easy. It was more like a car starting. I took a quick look at the gauges and found the battery taking 28 amps for several seconds but as I taxied it was down to 9, and at run-up it was at 1 amp. This is all normal as the battery sucks more juice at start-up if it has been discharged some.
So bottom line, better performance, great weight savings and an expectation of more dependability!
Cheers to fast starts and blue skies!
 
Thanks Bruce for your business and your detailed information posted here! Awesome write up and I am very happy you are so pleased. :p

Fly Lightly,
Kathy
 
Lead Acid Ah vs. Lithium Ah explained

Dear Vans Forum Readers,

EarthX has a new informational sheet that will be uploaded onto the website soon (it will be located under the DOCUMENTATION tab as soon as our website designer does it) about one of the frequently asked questions we receive about explaining lead acid Ah's vs. lithium Ah's.

And as promised, we are letting you know about it here first! As soon as I have a link I will provide it so you can read the information which we think will answer a lot of questions you might have and you will come away a bit wiser. :D

I didn't realize the link I originally posted had required a login and password to access it. My apologies. I would be happy to send a PDF file to anyone who wants it, just email me and I will reply with the attachment.
 
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Hi Eric,

You shouldn't need anything to open it, just click and read. Is anyone else out there having a problem opening the link?
 
Sorry about the link. As soon as it is loaded on the website, I can provide the URL link that will take you right to it.
 
Distribution in Africa from EarthX

Not really sure where to put this announcement but as many requests have been made for aircraft batteries in Africa, and they are a prohibited item to have air shipped into Africa, we now have a distributor in South Africa that is bringing in stock via ocean freight.

If you are interested, you can contact Alpha Engineering directly at [email protected] or contact EarthX at [email protected].

Thanks!
 
Need an idea if people are interested in this?

I know this is an aircraft forum, but many of you also have other hobbies that include power sports so I am trying to plan ahead for a tradeshow next week in Long Beach, California to see if there is any interest from pilots from this geographical area that are attending the IMS Progressive Motorcycle show November 18-20th and if so, would you want EarthX to have aircraft products there? Typically we do not bring our aircraft products to a motorcycle show but I wouldn't want to disappoint if you were going and hoping we do.

Thanks for your input! If you are interested, please send an email to [email protected]
 
I'm based at LGB and while I didn't plan to attend the MC show, I would sure be interested in seeing what you have. Any chance you will have some extra time or will the show be the only chance to see your procucts?

~Marc

I know this is an aircraft forum, but many of you also have other hobbies that include power sports so I am trying to plan ahead for a tradeshow next week in Long Beach, California to see if there is any interest from pilots from this geographical area that are attending the IMS Progressive Motorcycle show November 18-20th and if so, would you want EarthX to have aircraft products there? Typically we do not bring our aircraft products to a motorcycle show but I wouldn't want to disappoint if you were going and hoping we do.

Thanks for your input! If you are interested, please send an email to [email protected]
 
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11 volts

Okay 11 volts?

Amended request:
To EarthX how many minutes can a fully charged ETX680 last at a constant 10Amp down to the BMS allowed minumim voltage, and what is that voltage? What is the time for a PC680 under the exact same conditions to the same voltage and at the same outside air temperature?

Thank you
 
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Long Beach IMS Show

I'm based at LGB and while I didn't plan to attend the MC show, I would sure be interested in seeing what you have. Any chance you will have some extra time or will the show be the only chance to see your procucts?

~Marc

Hi Marc,
Thank you for your response. We typically do not ship all of our aircraft batteries to a motorcycle show and as we didn't get a big response here :)() We shipped only 1 ETX680 there. The show hours are 3-8 Friday the 18th, 9:30-8 on Saturday and 10-5 on Sunday. If you really want to see the ETX680 in person, we can make it happen! Just send me an email with your contact information and if a certain time works for you outside of the show hours. [email protected]
 
Okay 11 volts?

Amended request:
To EarthX how many minutes can a fully charged ETX680 last at a constant 10Amp down to the BMS allowed minumim voltage, and what is that voltage? What is the time for a PC680 under the exact same conditions to the same voltage and at the same outside air temperature?

Thank you

Thank you for your question. We do have a detailed manual which includes the data you seek in a graph format for each of the batteries. But to answer the question about EarthX, at a 10 amp draw, you have 74.4 minutes of use of the ETX680/ETX680C and at that time the voltage will be approximately 11.6V. Check out the manual at: www.earthxbatteries.com and click the manual button on the right side of the page or go to documentation tab to find it.

The manual for the Odyssey batteries is: www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-TM-002_1214.pdf. They do not list a graph with time/voltage and amperage so to get an accurate response, we recommend you contact them.
 
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Thank you for your question. We do have a detailed manual which includes the data you seek in a graph format for each of the batteries. But to answer the question about EarthX, at a 10 amp draw, you have 74.4 minutes of use of the ETX680/ETX680C and at that time the voltage will be approximately 11.6V. Check out the manual at: www.earthxbatteries.com and click the manual button on the right side of the page or go to documentation tab to find it.

The manual for the Odyssey batteries is: www.odysseybattery.com/documents/US-ODY-TM-002_1214.pdf. They do not list a graph with time/voltage and amperage so to get an accurate response, we recommend you contact them.

Kathy
I hope EarthX truly appreciates your continuous and professional response on this forum.

You are quite literally building EarthX's reputation in the aviation industry by answering and dealing with all of the detailed questions that are thrown at you.

Pilots are a skeptical bunch and you are always here to provide a detailed and honest response to all of the questions raised about your batteries.

Your not just answering emails here, you are personally building a strong market segment for your company. I hope EarthX understand this.

Gary Welch
Cloverdale, Ca
 
Marvin,

The PC680 will last around 80 minutes to what's considered discharged condition (10.02V), based on the graph in the Odyssey doc.

FWIW, the actual voltage voltage at 'end of life' isn't that critical in this case; just that they both have a lifespan that's fairly close to equal. One potential difference is that the BMS in the EarthX is likely to shut it down for its own self preservation, while the PC680 will continue to supply what it can, for as long as it can. Might not be very many minutes past that 10.2 V point, but if your critical 'stuff' works down to, say, 8V, then whatever time the PC680 takes to get down to 8V is there to use. :)

Charlie
 
Thanks for the info

To both Kathy and RV7Charlie:
That info is very useful. My critical systems will run down well below 10.2 volts; however, 74+ minutes is enough for my concerns. I have built my system around the PC680, but may change to a ETX680 at some point in the future.

I think jumping into a fully electrically dependent aircraft is enough for now. Because of my dual systems the weight difference is over 20 lbs, but the cost difference is substantial. I will wait to see if the cost difference declines over time. I probably need to go on a diet anyway.:)
 
New ETX1200 size

Hope all of you are having a fantastic start to the holiday season!

Just wanted to give the Vans forum readers the latest news at EarthX. :D

Effective yesterday, 12-1-2016, the ETX1200 is being built in the same case size as the ETX680 and the ETX900 so you have the ability to easily upgrade and use the custom made battery box or the multi use battery box with this model.

Also, our South Africa distributor, Alpha Engineering, will have the aircraft batteries in house by the 10th of this month! Getting product into South Africa is very difficult but this distributor was very motivated to have the EarthX batteries for sale as South Africa has many experimental aircrafts! The infrastructure of roadways is minimal at best in Africa and many people have aircrafts as this is the only way to get from point A to B!
 
Cranky SkyTec 149-LSX Lightweight Starter

Anyone having positive results with an EarthX ETX 680 battery and a SkyTec LSX lightweight starter?

By positive I mean, its spins the prop and starts on the first attempt.

My SkyTec LSX / Odyssey 680 combo takes 2 to 3 tries before I can get the prop turning with the battery indicating 12.6 V.

I have an RV-8 with high compression IO-360.
 
PC680 cranking

My PC 680 (B & C starter) cranks my 10:1 Lycon IO-360 briskly and will do multiple starts without any charging. I would check your grounds and wire gauge etc. or consider a B&C!
 
I have an RV-8 with IO 360 M1A, Sky-Tec 149-12LS. Recently installed EarthX ETX 680 due to age of Odyssey 680. The EarthX spins the prop much better with easier starts - no problems whatsoever.
 
Anyone having positive results with an EarthX ETX 680 battery and a SkyTec LSX lightweight starter?

By positive I mean, its spins the prop and starts on the first attempt.

My SkyTec LSX / Odyssey 680 combo takes 2 to 3 tries before I can get the prop turning with the battery indicating 12.6 V.

I have an RV-8 with high compression IO-360.

I have an RV-8 with IO 360 M1A, Sky-Tec 149-12LS. Recently installed EarthX ETX 680 due to age of Odyssey 680. The EarthX spins the prop much better with easier starts - no problems whatsoever.

Thanks for the response John. I received positive response from another RV-8 owner via a PM.

I'm trying to get my starter to turn the prop like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pTj-Gsibqg

Instead of this:

https://youtu.be/R3URjpaJyfU

(Videos borrowed from "Mantry" thread, "SkyTec 149-NL vs 149-LSX Starter Cranky!")

Seems like this can be achieved with the EarthX as opposed to a new starter.

Please share the results of your experience using the EarthX ETX 680 battery and a SkyTec LSX lightweight starter.

Thanks again!
 
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Charlie,

Before spending the big bucks, have you monitored battery voltage *on the actual battery posts* while cranking? That will tell you a lot about whether you really have a battery problem. You can see the same symptom if you have a poor connection anywhere in the electrical path from post, through all the joints to the starter, and all the way back to the negative post of the battery.

When you check, be sure the voltmeter probes are on the actual battery posts; not the bolt or wire terminal.

Charlie
 
Voltage drop test

Do what Charlie wrote before you start to replace things
it is called Voltage drop test I am sure you can find info on it online
you have 2 contactors on the way to starter check drop on each one
I dont remember the Amps rating on them but they must be working close to there limit when cranking.
bad contact = small gauge wire usually overheat when high Amps passing through
Using EarthX with bad contactors = BBQ
 
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Charlie,

Before spending the big bucks, have you monitored battery voltage *on the actual battery posts* while cranking? That will tell you a lot about whether you really have a battery problem. You can see the same symptom if you have a poor connection anywhere in the electrical path from post, through all the joints to the starter, and all the way back to the negative post of the battery.

When you check, be sure the voltmeter probes are on the actual battery posts; not the bolt or wire terminal.

Charlie

Do what Charlie wrote before you start to replace things
it is called Voltage drop test I am sure you can find info on it online
you have 2 contactors on the way to starter check drop on each one
I dont remember the Amps rating on them but they must be working close to there limit when cranking.
bad contact = small gauge wire usually overheat when high Amps passing through
Using EarthX with bad contactors = BBQ

Thanks guys. I have the troubleshooting guide and will check it out as suggested before dropping coin. I've done this once before and I'm getting more than a 2 volt drop during starter activation with my Odyssey PC680 and SkyTec LS combo. The best I've seen my fully charged Odyssey at was 12.7 volts but that degrades pretty fast with the activation of my master switch and fuel pump.

I have to bump the starter 2 - 3 times before I can get my prop to fully rotate and start my engine.

I think the combination of my Odyssey's voltage drop and relatively low rated CCA (170) on this 18 month old battery is causing the issue.

I'm trying to determine if there are any folks out there who saw improved cranking with the EarthX (320 CCA) and the SkyTec LS combo.

My battery is on the firewall. I have a Hartzell CS prop on an IO-360. The EarthX would help me shed a few pounds up front.
 
Hi Charlie,

I just installed an EarthX 900 in my -4. My aircraft has an IO-360 with a Skytech lightweight starter. It cranks noticeably faster and starts much quicker than with the Concorde lead acid gel cell I replaced. I attribute the quicker starts to the lower voltage droop. My Pmags seem to like voltages above 10 volts. My old (3-4 years) Concorde battery would drop to 9.8 or 9.9 on starts and the engine would often catch upon release of the starter button (as the voltage recovered, I believe). I only have 3 or 4 starts on the new battery, but so far it seems great.

Good luck,

Dean
 
Thanks guys. I have the troubleshooting guide and will check it out as suggested before dropping coin. I've done this once before and I'm getting more than a 2 volt drop during starter activation with my Odyssey PC680 and SkyTec LS combo. The best I've seen my fully charged Odyssey at was 12.7 volts but that degrades pretty fast with the activation of my master switch and fuel pump.

I have to bump the starter 2 - 3 times before I can get my prop to fully rotate and start my engine.

I think the combination of my Odyssey's voltage drop and relatively low rated CCA (170) on this 18 month old battery is causing the issue.

I'm trying to determine if there are any folks out there who saw improved cranking with the EarthX (320 CCA) and the SkyTec LS combo.

My battery is on the firewall. I have a Hartzell CS prop on an IO-360. The EarthX would help me shed a few pounds up front.
I can attest that once I replaced my PC680 with the EarthX the engine cranked noticeably faster. The EarthX fires almost immediately once the starter is engaged. I had 6 years on my PC680. It was taking considerable effort to turn my Catto prop over. I also had to hit the starter a couple of times to allow the prop to turn over with the old batter. The new EarthX changed all of that for the better.

I think your described symptoms may be resolved if you change out the battery but as others have stated, make sure there is not some wiring or connection problem in the circuit from the battery to the starter. If you do not find any issues then try installing the new battery. I have no complaints to date with the EarthX battery.
 
Hi Charlie,

I just installed an EarthX 900 in my -4. My aircraft has an IO-360 with a Skytech lightweight starter. It cranks noticeably faster and starts much quicker than with the Concorde lead acid gel cell I replaced. I attribute the quicker starts to the lower voltage droop. My Pmags seem to like voltages above 10 volts. My old (3-4 years) Concorde battery would drop to 9.8 or 9.9 on starts and the engine would often catch upon release of the starter button (as the voltage recovered, I believe). I only have 3 or 4 starts on the new battery, but so far it seems great.

Good luck,

Dean

I can attest that once I replaced my PC680 with the EarthX the engine cranked noticeably faster. The EarthX fires almost immediately once the starter is engaged. I had 6 years on my PC680. It was taking considerable effort to turn my Catto prop over. I also had to hit the starter a couple of times to allow the prop to turn over with the old batter. The new EarthX changed all of that for the better.

I think your described symptoms may be resolved if you change out the battery but as others have stated, make sure there is not some wiring or connection problem in the circuit from the battery to the starter. If you do not find any issues then try installing the new battery. I have no complaints to date with the EarthX battery.

Dean and Steve,

Thank you for the advise and sharing your experiences.

Today I removed all my cables, checked and cleaned the connections, ensured the terminal crimps were good and reassembled it all. With my Odyssey PC680 fully charged my SkyTec LS starter was able to turn the prop on the first attempt. No bump.

Based on the responses I received I will be getting an EarthX. It will have to wait until after Christmas.

Thanks again!
 
Sun N Fun

It is that time of year! Time to dust off those wings and head south. EarthX will be attending Sun N Fun, Hangar A, booth A-64 and would love to have you stop by and say "Hi".

If you are planning on attending and making a purchase of any of EarthX products, give us a call this week (970) 674-8884 so we can guarantee your product is waiting for you and you can avoid the lines. We never discount the batteries as they are priced year round as low as we can go but the accessories have great show pricing.

Looking forward to seeing you there!
 
What are the show discounts?


It is that time of year! Time to dust off those wings and head south. EarthX will be attending Sun N Fun, Hangar A, booth A-64 and would love to have you stop by and say "Hi".

If you are planning on attending and making a purchase of any of EarthX products, give us a call this week (970) 674-8884 so we can guarantee your product is waiting for you and you can avoid the lines. We never discount the batteries as they are priced year round as low as we can go but the accessories have great show pricing.

Looking forward to seeing you there!
 
It is that time of year! Time to dust off those wings and head south. EarthX will be attending Sun N Fun, Hangar A, booth A-64 and would love to have you stop by and say "Hi".

If you are planning on attending and making a purchase of any of EarthX products, give us a call this week (970) 674-8884 so we can guarantee your product is waiting for you and you can avoid the lines. We never discount the batteries as they are priced year round as low as we can go but the accessories have great show pricing.

Looking forward to seeing you there!


Will you have that sealed battery box for the EarthX 900 at the show?
 
Lithium Battery articles

Dear Vans Readers,

We have been granted permission to provide you a link to the articles published in Kitplanes, December 2017 issue, and the EAA Sport Aviation about lithium batteries for your viewing pleasure. Both offer great insights with different styles of presenting the information. A big thank you to both of those magazines for providing educational information about lithium batteries.

https://earthxbatteries.com/magazine-articles

__________________
 
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