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Tip Up Flip Over?

pilot28906

Well Known Member
After reading the post about "sweet escape's" flip over (good to hear you two are OK) I would like to know if there is anyone who has been in a flip over with a tipper that would share the outcome? I am building a tail dragger with tipper and am a little concerned about the roll bar in the back. Will it keep the canopy from colapsing?
 
You can figure the canopy will shatter but the roll bar will hold up, based on the pictures I have seen of such things.

It is kind of an question if it is better have the roll bar right behind your head or in front of you. Some time back, someone posted a picture on this forum with a line drawn between the slider's roll bar and the top of the VS and a tip up with the line drawn from its roll bar to the top of the VS. In that diagram, the slider had more head room; however, I'm not sure that is a true representation of what will happen if you go over.

I'm sure someone else will comment on this.
 
Had a close friend flip his RV-6 tip-up. The roll bar, being almost exactly over his head gave great protection. He was able to break the canopy and slide out within seconds.
 
Don't know if it will help your concerns, but given the track record of the trike 2 seaters off airport, you're probably less at risk in your taildragger (assuming reasonable taildragger skills).

Charlie
 
After reading the post about "sweet escape's" flip over (good to hear you two are OK) I would like to know if there is anyone who has been in a flip over with a tipper that would share the outcome? I am building a tail dragger with tipper and am a little concerned about the roll bar in the back. Will it keep the canopy from colapsing?

Here is an account from my web archives of a tip-up which flipped in a field following a bird strike:

Bird Strike and Flip

The tip up roll bar is a very robust structure.
 
I have a tip up and love the unobstructed visibility. I do keep a hammer between the seats in case, heaven forbid, I ever need to break out. I imagine Van gave considerable thought to the strength of the roll bar.
 
Tip Up Flip Over

After reading the post about "sweet escape's" flip over (good to hear you two are OK) I would like to know if there is anyone who has been in a flip over with a tipper that would share the outcome? I am building a tail dragger with tipper and am a little concerned about the roll bar in the back. Will it keep the canopy from colapsing?

I am sure the tip up still provides protection with the roll bar structure in the back. I am a tall person at 6'2" and my head sits high in the canopy. I have not had an incident like I experienced last week while in a tip up, however my thought is that if you draw a line from the top of the spinner to the top of the roll bar in the tip up canopy, you will find there is a lot less room that when you have the slider frame protecting you. Obviously the speed and impact of the tip over is also a factor to how much force there would be. Just my opinion after experiencing my tip over on 9/20/15.
 
After reading the post about "sweet escape's" flip over (good to hear you two are OK) I would like to know if there is anyone who has been in a flip over with a tipper that would share the outcome? I am building a tail dragger with tipper and am a little concerned about the roll bar in the back. Will it keep the canopy from colapsing?

You may also want to send Chuck Hagerty a message since he also had the same experience with a tip up.

because my 7-A is a tip up and when I ended up in that position, the damage to both pilot and passenger was a bit more significant. Fortunately, I had good insurance and was able to have a reputable company restore the plane.
I've been through all the paperwork with insurance, FAA, and NTSB, so if I can help answer any questions, contact me off-line.
Again, so glad you both weren't hurt.
 
I am sure the tip up still provides protection with the roll bar structure in the back. I am a tall person at 6'2" and my head sits high in the canopy. I have not had an incident like I experienced last week while in a tip up, however my thought is that if you draw a line from the top of the spinner to the top of the roll bar in the tip up canopy, you will find there is a lot less room that when you have the slider frame protecting you. Obviously the speed and impact of the tip over is also a factor to how much force there would be. Just my opinion after experiencing my tip over on 9/20/15.

Byron,

Draw the line from the spinner to the top of the vertical stab instead. From the 7A tip over that a friend of mine in Maine rebuilt the VS took much of the blow.

Btw, it was also a tipper. The roll bar held up marvelously!

:) CJ
 
Don't know if it will help your concerns, but given the track record of the trike 2 seaters off airport, you're probably less at risk in your taildragger (assuming reasonable taildragger skills).

Charlie

Most all of the reports I have ever read ALL RVs (tailwheel or nose wheel) that land off airport will end up on their back.
 
In 2013 a local RV-6 tip-up guy made an off airport landing near here, and ended up on his back. The roll bar held up just fine and protected the pilot until help arrived and lifted the plane up to assist him with egress (he was about 80 and not terribly nimble.) Last I heard the airplane was bought by a well-known RV build outfit our west and was repaired.

As a tip-up builder/ flyer myself, I've studied this and thought long and hard about it. Bottom line is that I'm perfectly comfortable with the security provided by the tip-up roll bar. I think those who believe that the slider to be superior is this regard are deluding themselves, particularly when they think they can simply slide the canopy back in a rollover situation.

I also carry a small backpacking axe for emergency egress, and if push comes to shove, aluminum (tip-up) chops easier than 4130 (slider.)
 
Most all of the reports I have ever read ALL RVs (tailwheel or nose wheel) that land off airport will end up on their back.

I agree.

The main wheels on a tail dragger are even further back than the nose wheel on a trigear (closer to the C.G.)

If the ground is soft or there is vegetation tall enough to grab the gear, going over is highly likely.
 
The main wheels on a tail dragger are even further back than the nose wheel on a trigear (closer to the C.G.)
While this is true, the main gear on a TD also deflects up and back when compressed, offering compliance and energy absorbtion while not tending to "dig in". The nosegear on a NW deflects back and down, digging further into the ground.

So as soon as a nosewheel comes down on rough/soft/uneven ground, it's going to be digging in, while on a tailwheel aircraft you will likely bleed off some speed decelerating before anything really grabs.

Of course, everything will depend on the stackup of a lot of factors in any off-airport situation... The third wheel placement will only be one of those factors, and I believe the TW has a slight edge in that regard.
 
You can read about N369RV.

I built N369RV which was a RV-9A Tip-Up and I had an off-field landing the resulted in a flip over. The roll bar sure helped, but it is a little lower than the high point on the canopy which did help when you impact the ground. I was knocked out for a few minutes and had to be put in a brace until the x-rays came back. I had a very stiff neck for 2 months and it still bothers me on occasion today, which is 11 years later. The canopy did break but it was only around the top where your head is. I could see that at the time but pounding on the sides of the glass would not break it. It wasn't until I realized it was broke over my head which is now in the ground that I started breaking it piece my piece up to the side rail until I had a big enough area to crawl out of. All this time the most horrible part is the smell of gas. Even with the fuel valve off, I had mostly full tanks and it will just gravity flow out of the vent lines in the RV-7/9 fuse the way it's designed.


Thanks

Ray
 
While this is true, the main gear on a TD also deflects up and back when compressed, offering compliance and energy absorbtion while not tending to "dig in". The nosegear on a NW deflects back and down, digging further into the ground.

So as soon as a nosewheel comes down on rough/soft/uneven ground, it's going to be digging in, while on a tailwheel aircraft you will likely bleed off some speed decelerating before anything really grabs.

Of course, everything will depend on the stackup of a lot of factors in any off-airport situation... The third wheel placement will only be one of those factors, and I believe the TW has a slight edge in that regard.

Analyze it all you want Rob, but accident evidence shows that a tail dragger or trigear RV landing in the conditions that existed for this recent accident, the end result is generally the same....
 
In my forced landing in a plowed field with my 6A, I luckily flared a bit too late, lacking the prop wash over the elevator and hit level at about 60 knots which immediately sheared the nose gear leg upper bolt and folded the leg flat with the cowling. We simply slid along the ground for 150 feet on the flattened gear leg/ tire/ cowling (turned 90 degrees to lie flat against the cowling bottom). We didn't flip.

The main legs were splayed a good 20 degrees outward from a 7G vertical impact according to the G meter.

There are lots of possibilities here but generally if you land in a plowed field with an A model and try to hold off, the gear will slowly fold back on the first impact and you'll flip. Probably the same for a non- A given the position of the gear. The anti-splat stuff won't make any difference in a rough field landing since it's not strong enough to prevent the leg from folding and could even make things worse here.

Wiping the nose gear off like I did, could be an alternative strategy to not flipping even if it's against your natural reactions. Just food for thought.

The plane had almost no damage other than all 3 gear legs and a hole punched through the firewall and the battery box by the nose gear leg and of course all the wheel fairings and a brake rotor.
 
I had always hoped a water ditching would have the best outcome. Also thinking that whatever the landing surface, that I would be able to keep my TW right side up. After watching the midair/off airport landing on the beach in Italy I see how foolish my thinking was. I will avoid a ditching, even take trees before water and will always plan on being inverted when coming to a rest.
That video was an eye opener.
 
My slider will have pull pins on the front rollers, if I'm going swimming, my canopy is going first!
 
should it be standard practice to jettison the canopy at low speed if you have an off field landing? it seems it does more harm than good in the event of a flip over. probably need a set of safety glasses in place before jettison.
 
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I had always hoped a water ditching would have the best outcome. Also thinking that whatever the landing surface, that I would be able to keep my TW right side up. After watching the midair/off airport landing on the beach in Italy I see how foolish my thinking was. I will avoid a ditching, even take trees before water and will always plan on being inverted when coming to a rest.
That video was an eye opener.

My takeaway from that video is to keep the canopy closed and land in deeper water. I think the worst water outcome would be to try to egress from an inverted plane with the canopy taking on water but held in place by the sea floor. I've always figured I would be outside the break anyway to keep from hitting swimmers or surfers. My plane is hangered at the beach so my local area is the shore.

If that pilot had braced for impact by wedging his hand against the roll bar, the canopy would have easily crush his hand or worse.
 
Roll Bar

There is a lot of precedent for the roll bar in front of the pilot. T18 Midget Mustang etc.
If you look at any type of race car as well as some sports cars that are not raced, the roll bar is ALWAYS behind the drivers head. That is the location that provides the optimum protection for the pilots and passengers heads.
Forget about after the flip. One needs to survive the flip with the skull intact or you will not be getting out anyway.
Protection from the vertical fin is also a fallacy. What if the vertical tail is buried half its height in mud??
A much heavier airplane but Charlie Hilliards fatal accident at Sun n Fun 1995 makes an excellent case to study. Roll bar removed, flipped in soft ground, fin did not provide much protection.
 
Water

There is a fairly recent video of an airshow pilot in a 450 Stearman hitting the water quite hard at the bottom of a looping maneuver. IIRC the airplane flipped and he got out on his own, essentially uninjured.
 
After this long I am still surprised how every time one of these discussions develops here on VAF, there are recommendations that jettisoning the canopy before a forced landing is a good option.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and everyone has to develop their own plan, so this is not meant to flame anyone, but I hope it will induce some very serious thinking (and possibly some thoughtful conversation) before anyone would settle on this as a good option (whether it be a forced landing in water or on land).

Even though we tend to get the idea that the canopy is very fragile (because of occasional cracks near drilled holes, etc.) acrylic is actually quite strong. Try and purposely break some sometime if you have the chance. I have done tests. It is not easy.

When RV's flip and the top of the canopy gets broken, that implies that a lot of impact load was absorbed by the canopy. Would you really rather have nothing between your head/face and what ever surface the canopy would have come into contact with (if it was still there)?

What about water? Anyone participate in high speed water sports (water skiing, etc.). Water at only 40 MPH feels very hard... and that is when moving somewhat parallel to its surface. Imagine what it might feel like if you where to be rapidly slammed into it nearly perpendicular to the surface.
I choose to have a canopy between my head and that hard water surface.

Back to forced landing on land.... what if the ground is soft... you got rid of your sliding canopy... the flip is violent enough that you still have fwd (now backwards) movement once inverted... the windscreen / roll bar assy. now acts as big scoop in the soft ground which induces enough fwd load to fail the roll bar by folding it fwd.... you may have now lost any escape benefit you hoped to have.

Going into trees... it is fairly common for airplanes to roll, yaw, tumble as they come down through trees... my preference is to have something between me and all of the tree limbs trying to poke inside.

I could go on and on..... maybe others have ideas as well.

Bottom line, when making a plan, think through the entire accident scenario. Not just a single aspect that you think might be the most critical point... a wrong decision could easily shift it from one thing to another
 
Off airport is not the problem

Most all of the reports I have ever read ALL RVs (tailwheel or nose wheel) that land off airport will end up on their back.

Vlad would respectfully disagree with you. Likely a few hundred off airport landings in his 9A and it's still a very useable 9A.

RV's and other trike and TW AC can be landed off airport, however, any landing surface that is too soft will very often result in a flip over.

The small 5.00 x5" main wheels require a firm enough surface to roll. A dry pasture, a dirt or gravel road would provide a firm enough surface for a landing roll.

Vlad has even been known to use wet sand to land on and take off from.

On the flip side my neighbour landed his cub in my field one night, and almost flipped. The field was just seeded and very soft, even 6.00 tires sunk in and produced more drag than he was expecting.
 
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AIR BAG on Top

A large enough air bag mounted on the top of the firewall and or on top of the vertical stab. that fired when the top of the V STAB impacted might provide better impact protection and/or better egress after the event. You sure would not want any deployment in flight. Perhaps a manual fired air bag or bags might be a better option.
Possibly a nose gear failure could fire the bags on top.
 
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Vlad would respectfully disagree with you. Likely a few hundred off airport landings in his 9A and it's still a very useable 9A.

RV's and other trike and TW AC can be landed off airport, however, any landing surface that is too soft will very often result in a flip over.

The small 5.00 x5" main wheels require a firm enough surface to roll. A dry pasture, a dirt or gravel road would provide a firm enough surface for a landing roll.

Vlad has even been known to use wet sand to land on and take off from.

On the flip side my neighbour landed his cub in my field one night, and almost flipped. The field was just seeded and very soft, even 6.00 tires sunk in and produced more drag than he was expecting.

I'm curious what you define as an off airport landing? To me, an off airport landing is putting your aircraft down somewhere no one has ever landed or even done a preliminary check with a vehicle, such as in an emergency. Grass strips, abandoned airports, and any other surface where numerous other people have already landed and proven the surface safe to do so does not fall into the category of what is being discussed here in my opinion.
 
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After this long I am still surprised how every time one of these discussions develops here on VAF, there are recommendations that jettisoning the canopy before a forced landing is a good option.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and everyone has to develop their own plan, so this is not meant to flame anyone, but I hope it will induce some very serious thinking (and possibly some thoughtful conversation) before anyone would settle on this as a good option (whether it be a forced landing in water or on land).

Even though we tend to get the idea that the canopy is very fragile (because of occasional cracks near drilled holes, etc.) acrylic is actually quite strong. Try and purposely break some sometime if you have the chance. I have done tests. It is not easy.

When RV's flip and the top of the canopy gets broken, that implies that a lot of impact load was absorbed by the canopy. Would you really rather have nothing between your head/face and what ever surface the canopy would have come into contact with (if it was still there)?

What about water? Anyone participate in high speed water sports (water skiing, etc.). Water at only 40 MPH feels very hard... and that is when moving somewhat parallel to its surface. Imagine what it might feel like if you where to be rapidly slammed into it nearly perpendicular to the surface.
I choose to have a canopy between my head and that hard water surface.

Back to forced landing on land.... what if the ground is soft... you got rid of your sliding canopy... the flip is violent enough that you still have fwd (now backwards) movement once inverted... the windscreen / roll bar assy. now acts as big scoop in the soft ground which induces enough fwd load to fail the roll bar by folding it fwd.... you may have now lost any escape benefit you hoped to have.

Going into trees... it is fairly common for airplanes to roll, yaw, tumble as they come down through trees... my preference is to have something between me and all of the tree limbs trying to poke inside.

I could go on and on..... maybe others have ideas as well.

Bottom line, when making a plan, think through the entire accident scenario. Not just a single aspect that you think might be the most critical point... a wrong decision could easily shift it from one thing to another

Excellent advise for emergency preparedness. Think of all the scenarios and work through possible outcomes.
Just want to add additional food for thought. Where will the canopy go in the process of separating from the airplane? Most likely hit the vertical tail or even could whack you in the head.
 
Thanks for all the info and insights. It does seem that ending up on your back with an off field landing is very probable. There may not be a "best" option with the canopy as both seem to provide good protection.

Thanks again.
 
After this long I am still surprised how every time one of these discussions develops here on VAF, there are recommendations that jettisoning the canopy before a forced landing is a good option.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and everyone has to develop their own plan, so this is not meant to flame anyone, but I hope it will induce some very serious thinking (and possibly some thoughtful conversation) before anyone would settle on this as a good option (whether it be a forced landing in water or on land).

Even though we tend to get the idea that the canopy is very fragile (because of occasional cracks near drilled holes, etc.) acrylic is actually quite strong. Try and purposely break some sometime if you have the chance. I have done tests. It is not easy.

When RV's flip and the top of the canopy gets broken, that implies that a lot of impact load was absorbed by the canopy. Would you really rather have nothing between your head/face and what ever surface the canopy would have come into contact with (if it was still there)?

What about water? Anyone participate in high speed water sports (water skiing, etc.). Water at only 40 MPH feels very hard... and that is when moving somewhat parallel to its surface. Imagine what it might feel like if you where to be rapidly slammed into it nearly perpendicular to the surface.
I choose to have a canopy between my head and that hard water surface.


Back to forced landing on land.... what if the ground is soft... you got rid of your sliding canopy... the flip is violent enough that you still have fwd (now backwards) movement once inverted... the windscreen / roll bar assy. now acts as big scoop in the soft ground which induces enough fwd load to fail the roll bar by folding it fwd.... you may have now lost any escape benefit you hoped to have.

Going into trees... it is fairly common for airplanes to roll, yaw, tumble as they come down through trees... my preference is to have something between me and all of the tree limbs trying to poke inside.

I could go on and on..... maybe others have ideas as well.

Bottom line, when making a plan, think through the entire accident scenario. Not just a single aspect that you think might be the most critical point... a wrong decision could easily shift it from one thing to another

All true observations; no water skier would disagree about what it feels like. But when I consider an over-water crossing like the Pamlico Sound that lies between me and the Outer Banks, I factor in the likelihood of ending up on my back in water with an average depth of seven feet for miles in any direction, and make the crossing at an altitude that allows gliding to shore. My canopy jettison handle was removed from the panel when I realized there was no way a tip-up 6 canopy would be jettison-able in flight without further mods to the forward deck (slots) and I didn't want rain leaks. Having to live with that choice means I will never be comfortable with a water ditching scenario and subsequent drowning.

Maybe someone will develop a drogue/sea anchor that could be released at the moment of impact in a water ditching. Not that it would ever be worth the weight or risk of inadvertent deployment, but it might mitigate the nose-over.

To make water ditchings survivable in RV's (except 10's, I suppose - doors are different) we must
make the nose-over event unlikely;
add floatation such that for at least a minute the canopy can be opened in shallow water while inverted (wings full of ping-pong balls?);
be able to jettison canopy before impact;
or provide rescue air for all occupants several minutes' worth of hatchet/breaker tool work upside down in flooded cockpit with dim to no visibility.
 
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How about a slider with Sikaflex?

It has been brought up that breaking out a canopy set in Sika could be much more difficult. Anyone with this experience?
 
It has been brought up that breaking out a canopy set in Sika could be much more difficult. Anyone with this experience?
I would suspect that if it goes upside down, the canopy is going to break, regardless of how it is fastened to the airframe. Once it is cracked, kicking the rest of it out isn't going be that difficult.

One thing that I noticed that some people do on this forum is to pack some type of canopy breaking tool. I would suspect that if you are upside down, hanging from your harness, or if you have released your harness and are scrunched up in the cockpit, on your knees, you will not have the room to swing a hammer/hatchet/whatever with enough force to break out your canopy and that the only tool that will really work is your foot.

Thoughts?
 
In my 6 nothing fancy, just a ball-peen hammer velcroed between the seats next to the fire extinguisher.
 
Brakeout hammer

I was thinking a eye screw in the bottom of the handle and a foot of string.Your hammer will be hanging mid air,right when you need it.
RHill
 
I was thinking a eye screw in the bottom of the handle and a foot of string.Your hammer will be hanging mid air,right when you need it.
RHill

I'm not sure I want something swing around in my cockpit. In the event of an accident, that could be the item that comes loose and kills you. (Then again, I never secure anything in my baggage compartment.)
 
Movable object

I responded to an accident where the truck ran off the road and hit a ditch. Minimal damage to truck and occupant was wearing a seatbelt. It looked very survivable but truck owner failed to secure the toolbox in the bed behind the cab and the subsequent head injury was fatal. Unsecured objects not good. Bill, secure your stuff. 😄
 
I would suspect that if it goes upside down, the canopy is going to break, regardless of how it is fastened to the airframe. Once it is cracked, kicking the rest of it out isn't going be that difficult.

One thing that I noticed that some people do on this forum is to pack some type of canopy breaking tool. I would suspect that if you are upside down, hanging from your harness, or if you have released your harness and are scrunched up in the cockpit, on your knees, you will not have the room to swing a hammer/hatchet/whatever with enough force to break out your canopy and that the only tool that will really work is your foot.

Thoughts?

The comparison is Plexiglass will fracture around rivets and break away. Sika will hold on to every inch of perimeter. So you might break out the plexiglass but might not get it to peel away.
 
I'm not sure I want something swing around in my cockpit. In the event of an accident, that could be the item that comes loose and kills you. (Then again, I never secure anything in my baggage compartment.)

Good point,It's a half baked idea.Maybe on a hinge holder or clip.Point is there is not a lot of space,time to react if your upside down and no one is around to help you out.Odds are good the canopy will brake regardless of attachment type.having a tool where and when you need it.... Fuel leaking out thru the vent lines is a huge concern.Anybody have any thoughts on a way to prevent that?
 
This is a new wrinkle to the situation of being upside down in an RV7A slider.
I have done it, not proud, and it was not fun. I was not hurt. Thank God. Canopy cracked and opened a hole for me to crawl out.

When I got out I did notice that fuel was flowing very slowly out of the fuel vents. Fuel flowed and evaporated almost as fast as it came out. No dead grass on the runway.

Another issue I thought was interesting. The battery was dead short circuited.
What happened when it went upside down, the battery went upside down, slide and the + and - were connected. The battery went dead almost immediately.
This I thought was a good thing, maybe it prevented a fire?

Tip-up or Slider in a up-side down situation? For me, I would take a slider any day. But truthful, it may depend upon the crash circumstances.
I would rather not be upside down at all.
Dave
 
Added Safety!!!!

....Irrespective of the style or type of canopy, its a good idea to have one of our Anti-Splat-Aero "SNAPPER" canopy tools on board in an easily accessible area. The canopy almost always breaks on flip-overs. People all say the problem is the sharp shards of plastic that are almost impossible to break or remove by hand. This little tool will easily snap off these shards to facilitate a speedy exit. It also is designed to open your gas caps with ease. Using it for this purpose will keep you accustomed to grabbing it from its chosen location, should it be needed in an emergency. This is very inexpensive insurance and at only an ounce its not like carrying a hammer or axe as an escape tool. Have a look on our website with complete details if interested. Thanks, Allan....:D
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Allan, I ordered one of your "snapper" tools. It arrived last week and I took it to the hangar yesterday. The tool I received looks similar to your pictures, but not the same. Mine has two notches in the end and are at somewhat different angles. Just saying...
 
Allan, I ordered one of your "snapper" tools. It arrived last week and I took it to the hangar yesterday. The tool I received looks similar to your pictures, but not the same. Mine has two notches in the end and are at somewhat different angles. Just saying...

.....Sorry! I inadvertently posted the wrong picture. Here is an updated photo, showing the added feature of the gas cap removal hook. Thanks, Allan...:D
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