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Pictures with registration application - Canada

Flying Canuck

Well Known Member
Patron
Very Canada specific question here. I've just received my final inspection paperwork which enables me to apply for my registration with Transport Canada. With that application I need to submit 2 pictures, the first one with the data plate - no problem there, the second is described as

3/4 side view photo of the completed aircraft showing registration marks affixed.

I have 2 questions that I've asked MD-RA that maybe someone here has run into before.

  1. How completed does the aircraft need to be? Right now I don't have my cowling, wing root fairings or empennage fairings on. My front top skin isn't riveted on and my canopy isn't on. How many of those things are going to be needed to be completed before taking the picture? I want to get my application off at the earliest possible time so I'm not sitting around ready and waiting for that registration.
  2. I used the provision for smaller fuselage letters with the large under wing letters. Do I need to send in a picture of the under wing letters?

Thanks for any experiences my fellow Canadians may have.
 
Send it in now, ASAP. It can take a few months. In your email subject line specify “aircraft registration”. The person in charge does not read emails that do not have specific subject lines. 20 years ago registration took a long time, then it got a lot better. It seems we are now back in the bureaucracy era. Expect four or five months, unless you make a spelling mistake, then it could be longer.
Send under wing pics as well
 
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My RV-8 was no where near ready to fly, but I just put all of the pieces on and, in some places, used duct tape and/or hockey tape to hold them in some semblance of flying condition. I took the picture, then took it apart and carried on.
 
1. I'm fairly certain it is supposed to be a picture of the completed (ie. flyable) aircraft. If you can make it look like that, then go to it... But if your canopy isn't fitted yet and skins aren't riveted, they won't be happy with a photo of skins cleco'd in place.

2. No. Don't send them more than they've asked for. They want a side 3/4 view of the aircraft, send them a side 3/4 view of the aircraft. They will assume if your letters are on the tail that you have letters under the wing as required... Your MD-RA inspector is supposed to check that.
 
Rob - I don't wish to sound argumentative, however my recent experience (2017) through the Ontario regional office in Toronto provided evidence that the aircraft does not have to be complete.

In our case the engine cowl wasn't in place, nor the windshield. Importantly, on our aircraft the horizontal stabilizer is removable. The photos I provided with the C of R application showed the horizontal stabilizer missing from the airplane.

The intention of the photos is to reflect the location of the registration marks and to provide sufficient visual references to allow an approximate scaling of the registration marks to ensure they are at least close to the required size and of the appropriate font.

Agree totally with not providing more info than needed and that MD-RA will inspect the registration marks in detail for conformity to the regulations.
 
Application Submitted

Thanks for the feedback guys. I threw on the bottom cowling, the canopy, the empennage fairing and clecoed on the top skin and took the requisite pictures. I just emailed the whole package in, we'll see how it goes. I sure hope it isn't 4 months...
 
When I was waiting for mine we were having threats of a postal strike. TC was on the ball that day, after waiting probably a month for it to be delivered (called to ask my cue)I called again to see what was the hold up. They were holding it for me because the Postal service might go on strike. One would think they could have called and asked how I wanted to deal with it. I live in Nova Scotia , their office for registry is down town Vancouver and I told the lady to hold on a bit longer as I would be picking it up in person. She never even asked why (did not have a care in the world) and I did not tell her. I was headed for transition training in Oregon and thought I would drive up to BC to visit my niece if I had time.
 
I think I missed something here, but how can you submit photos with "showing registration marks affixed" when you are applying for the registration?
 
You can apply for your registration marks and reserve them in Canada before registration.
 
Rob - I don't wish to sound argumentative, however my recent experience (2017) through the Ontario regional office in Toronto provided evidence that the aircraft does not have to be complete.

There seems to be much inconsistency in the system in Canada.

I also completed my 7 last year and dealt with the Toronto office. I was told the aircraft was to be complete with registration marks and data plate installed for the photo. I put everything in place that would be visible from the 3/4 angle, taped on cardboard marks and took the photo. I then continued working on the plane. The MDRA final inspection notice was also required for the C of R application as well as the BOS. TC has a standard of 60 working days (on their website) in which to reply. I called after a month to see where I was in the cue and was laughed at before being told I was a long ways down the line. She would not give me an estimate. Two weeks later my reg arrived in the mail.

My MDRA inspector didn't pay too much attention to the marks, only enough to see they were there. No measurements or checking the angle. He was an AME and did a thorough inspection and runup with lots of attention to the paperwork...fuel flow, w&b, C of A, log book entries....

Good luck with yours!
Al
 
Rob - I don't wish to sound argumentative, however my recent experience (2017) through the Ontario regional office in Toronto provided evidence that the aircraft does not have to be complete.

In our case the engine cowl wasn't in place, nor the windshield. Importantly, on our aircraft the horizontal stabilizer is removable. The photos I provided with the C of R application showed the horizontal stabilizer missing from the airplane.
Good to know, I was under the impression they wanted a photo of the complete aircraft, so they had record of paint scheme, marks, etc. for identification purposes.

The intention of the photos is to reflect the location of the registration marks and to provide sufficient visual references to allow an approximate scaling of the registration marks to ensure they are at least close to the required size and of the appropriate font.
Not to be argumentative, but scaling registration marks off a photo is never going to happen. At best, they'll look at the photo and see if things look "about right". TC has contracted MD-RA to take care of the details that need measuring on-site... ie. checking that letters are large enough and in the right place. And yet, i've lost count of the number of RV's i've seen where the registration marks don't meet the size requirements...
 
I just got an answer from MD-RA on my question (only took a week).

Transport Canada requires a 3/4 Side view of the Aircraft. Doesn't have to be fully assembled.

Submitted my application last Friday, no sign of my registration yet :)
 
It sounds to me like the MDRA final inspection was carried out before the aircraft was complete. The regulation requires the aircraft to be presented for the final inspection, ready for flight.
 
This isn't about the final inspection, obviously the aircraft needs to be ready for flight before final inspection. I'll need all inspection panels and cowlings off, but everything else on.

The question was the level of completeness required to submit the application for registration. Registration needs to be on hand at final inspection and there is a fairly long wait time for this. Final inspection can't even be scheduled until the registration is received.
 
To add another layer of clarification with respect to the order of operations.

In order...
1) apply to MD-RA for final inspection... MD-RA will then send you an information package which includes instructions to help with applying to Transport Canada for a Certificate of Registration

2) apply to Transport Canada for a Certificate of Registration - this is where the photos are required - so this is well in advance of the aircraft being fully ready for for final inspection

3) Once the C of R is in hand, the MD-RA final inspection can take place.

Remember, the outcome of MD-RA final inspection is the issuance of a Special Certificate of Airworthiness. An airplane can't have a CofA unless and until it's registered. MD-RA won't do the final inspection until the aircraft is registered, simply because the presence of the C of R is a mandatory prerequisite for them to be able to issue a Special C of A.
 
That's exactly how I understand it too. Of course each step comes with it's own fee schedule. And the time between steps is a big unknown. I received my authorisation for Final Inspection with the registration package in less than 48 hours after faxing in my application for Final Inspection (and paying $1300). The application for registration is another $110. The wait now for my C of R will take as long as it does. Then it's just a matter of scheduling the inspection directly with the assigned inspector (same local guy who did my pre-cover). After successful inspection, the Special C of A is supposed to happen within a couple of weeks.

In short, lots of time and money. Neither of which is foreign to this build your own airplane game.
 
Anybody know why MD-RA's fees are climbing so high? Hopefully the inspectors are getting paid as I cannot see running the office requiring these high fees.
 
Fee's

That's exactly how I understand it too. Of course each step comes with it's own fee schedule. And the time between steps is a big unknown. I received my authorisation for Final Inspection with the registration package in less than 48 hours after faxing in my application for Final Inspection (and paying $1300). The application for registration is another $110. The wait now for my C of R will take as long as it does. Then it's just a matter of scheduling the inspection directly with the assigned inspector (same local guy who did my pre-cover). After successful inspection, the Special C of A is supposed to happen within a couple of weeks.

Just traveled this road 20 months ago and have a precover inspection tomorrow, I nearly fell off my chair when they asked for $610. for the first inspection,
Heaven forbid I fall in love with another registration , cost $100 to reserve the first one and I'm scared to ask this round !
 
Anybody know why MD-RA's fees are climbing so high? Hopefully the inspectors are getting paid as I cannot see running the office requiring these high fees.

Here in the Toronto area the inspectors are volunteers. They only get paid mileage for the inspection. Not sure why the costs are so high.

The info on the data plate has to match what was written on the Letter of Intent when applying for the final inspection. I was not aware of this and engraved my plate with the model RV-7 but my letter of intent did not have the dash. I was allowed to submit an amendment to the Letter of Intent instead of changing the plate.

Both TC and the MD-RA are very anal about the paperwork! Everything must match or they will hold up the process.

Al
 
To be clear... MD-RA openly tells us that inspectors work on a volunteer basis. In the background the reality is they work for a fixed per-inspection fee which is built into the total inspection fee. Also of importance is the concept that the "head office" guys who do the final review on inspection data packages sent in by the field inspectors are also on a fixed-fee basis (a.k.a. piecework). I discovered this information through conversations with retired inspectors who no longer have a stake in the game.

This information is not widely known and is considered by the MD-RA to be sensitive. I share it here because, frankly, I can't understand why there is any need to hide the fact that our inspectors do not work for free (and I fundamentally disagree with this dishonest policy). Having some insight into the fee schedule, I can say they don't work for free, but they sure don't work for much more than minimum wage (and usually much less) if they're really doing what they're supposed to do with the inspections and paperwork.

I have the utmost respect for our MD-RA inspectors. In the case of the MD-RA inspections performed on our aircraft, both of the inspectors added real value to the process - it wasn't just a rubber stamp. As a result of having gone through pre-cover and final inspections I wouldn't hesitate to fork over the fees currently charged. I would, however, like to get better value from the fees paid to the head office management. They are on piece work and yet seem to feel no incentive to move paperwork along in a timely fashion.

Be aware, also, that Transport Canada is reviewing ALL current aviation fees (for everything from aircraft registration to pilot medical processing to who-knows-what) and is planning on adding new fees for services we now obtain without additional cost.

If one thinks having one's airplane inspected by Transport Canada would be cheaper than having it done by an MD-RA, well, I suspect one might be in for a bit of a surprise.
 
$1300 seems like for one plane but I am sure that it reflects how few inspections there are in our country each year. Considering the level of service we get I believe it to be a bargain. Staff and office expense have to be paid by the users, the builders.
 
Very well said and exactly as I was secretly told also. Why the deception? If the office fees were more reasonable or explained as wages to the inspectors (I do not expect anyone to do a service for me for free) then I would accept this much easier. I work with Transport Canada on a weekly basis and they know how to bill very well. If those doing their work (in TC) were as good at what they do as the guys implementing the fee structure, what a service we would have.
To be clear... MD-RA openly tells us that inspectors work on a volunteer basis. In the background the reality is they work for a fixed per-inspection fee which is built into the total inspection fee. Also of importance is the concept that the "head office" guys who do the final review on inspection data packages sent in by the field inspectors are also on a fixed-fee basis (a.k.a. piecework). I discovered this information through conversations with retired inspectors who no longer have a stake in the game.

This information is not widely known and is considered by the MD-RA to be sensitive. I share it here because, frankly, I can't understand why there is any need to hide the fact that our inspectors do not work for free (and I fundamentally disagree with this dishonest policy). Having some insight into the fee schedule, I can say they don't work for free, but they sure don't work for much more than minimum wage (and usually much less) if they're really doing what they're supposed to do with the inspections and paperwork.

I have the utmost respect for our MD-RA inspectors. In the case of the MD-RA inspections performed on our aircraft, both of the inspectors added real value to the process - it wasn't just a rubber stamp. As a result of having gone through pre-cover and final inspections I wouldn't hesitate to fork over the fees currently charged. I would, however, like to get better value from the fees paid to the head office management. They are on piece work and yet seem to feel no incentive to move paperwork along in a timely fashion.

Be aware, also, that Transport Canada is reviewing ALL current aviation fees (for everything from aircraft registration to pilot medical processing to who-knows-what) and is planning on adding new fees for services we now obtain without additional cost.

If one thinks having one's airplane inspected by Transport Canada would be cheaper than having it done by an MD-RA, well, I suspect one might be in for a bit of a surprise.
 
It's been a month since I sent in my registration application and I haven't heard anything other than an automated email receipt. I just emailed Transport Canada and they quickly told me that they didn't receive my application. Nice. I think the email address that MD-RA shows is outdated. The guy from TC told me to resend to the address I was communicating with him with and he'd get it in the queue, back dated to March 2nd. Who knows, that might actually have sped up the process. Looking at their website, it certainly looks like they are turning registrations around pretty quickly, so hopefully I can get mine soon.

I'm pretty close to being ready for final inspection - not going to do the first engine start before I get the registration. My engine builder wants to wait as long as possible before I start, no point in adding moisture in the engine much before I can break it in. The one thing that's certain, I won't be flying it this month - I'm doing my transition training at the end of the month.
 
Claude

The process for getting a Canadian C of R for a project is a bit convoluted. I'll try to lay it out in sequence:

Re: TC not receiving your application, did you pay for it, did the cheque clear? They should be able to cross reference it back if that's the case. They may have received it but not doing anything with it till they receive the form I describe below:



1. You should apply for your MD-RA Final Inspection (& pay) NOW (you need to do this now because there is a step in there that has to be done before TC will complete your C of R application). Note in your application to MD-RA that you have already sent the C of R application (or have reserved) to TC for C-XXXX marks. ( I assume you have already paid to TC the $40 or $150 to reserve your custom marks, & $110 to process the registration, the amounts are from my memory, so may not be exactly right). You can arrange with your assigned local inspector to do the inspection on a date when you are ready for him.

2. MDRA will email you back a series of inspection documents, among them will be a form that assigns your local inspector.

3. I think the form C-07B shows you have requested & paid for the Final - and you must send a copy of this form (MD-RA doesn't do it) to TC so they can complete your C of R request. Note to reference your email to TC with your C-XXXX mark.

Neither TC or MD-RA (in their instructions) explain this process very well to us common builder folk...
 
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Hi Ralph.

I've already had figure that process out. You're right about it not being very obvious. I've already got my final inspection letter, everything is paid and I'm just waiting on the C of R so I can schedule the actual inspection with the inspector (who is the same one who did my pre-cover).

Looking forward to your Sportair workshop on test flying your homebuilt in High River in a few weeks (I'm expecting registration info on that from you still).
 
Just went thru that process...

Very Canada specific question here. I've just received my final inspection paperwork which enables me to apply for my registration with Transport Canada. With that application I need to submit 2 pictures, the first one with the data plate - no problem there, the second is described as



I have 2 questions that I've asked MD-RA that maybe someone here has run into before.

  1. How completed does the aircraft need to be? Right now I don't have my cowling, wing root fairings or empennage fairings on. My front top skin isn't riveted on and my canopy isn't on. How many of those things are going to be needed to be completed before taking the picture? I want to get my application off at the earliest possible time so I'm not sitting around ready and waiting for that registration.
  2. I used the provision for smaller fuselage letters with the large under wing letters. Do I need to send in a picture of the under wing letters?

Thanks for any experiences my fellow Canadians may have.

I just went thru the registration process for my Bearhawk....here is what I did:

1- Since the plane was still at home is my single car garage, I took a 3/4 view of the fuselage only (no wing/empennage attached). The cowling was installed, but no prop.
2- For completeness, I?ve also submitted a photo of the markings under the wing. The wing was hanging on the wall...

Sent the two photos (along with the data plate photo) and all the other required information and got my CofR delivered to my house after 2.5 weeks. This was dealing with the TC folks in Dorval, Montr?al.
 
I just went thru the registration process for my Bearhawk....here is what I did:

1- Since the plane was still at home is my single car garage, I took a 3/4 view of the fuselage only (no wing/empennage attached). The cowling was installed, but no prop.
2- For completeness, I?ve also submitted a photo of the markings under the wing. The wing was hanging on the wall...

Sent the two photos (along with the data plate photo) and all the other required information and got my CofR delivered to my house after 2.5 weeks. This was dealing with the TC folks in Dorval, Montr?al.

2-1/2 weeks?!?!?
I'm calling tomorrow, I'm still waiting, it's been 8 weeks. Nice to see that you were able to get registered with the pictures of a clearly unfinished plane. That should at least suggest that the pictures I sent in will be fine.

I just got back from my transition training as well as 2 day EAA Canada Sportair workshop on test flying your homebuilt. Now I'm really itching to get flying.
 
It only took 96 days, several follow up emails and phone calls and the passing of the promised worst case completion date by 2 days, but my registration finally went through yesterday. I cannot understand why it takes so long for what can't be much more than an hour's work. I'm just waiting for the paper certificate now. Now I'm scrambling to finish all of the items that I'd lost motivation for doing while I waited and getting my plane ready for inspection - probably in about 2 weeks.
 
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