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GPS dilemma -Garmin 430W vs. GTN 650 Plz Help.

jeffsvan

Well Known Member
Hello,

Maybe someone can chime in regarding GPS choices.

In the middle of installing a 430W which was bought new in December.
Only have the antenna installed (same antenna GTN650 uses)
and am making a wire harness, so basically the 430 is still new in the box.

I am pondering selling the new 430W (taking a $1+k loss i assume)
and buying a new GTN 650.

Questions.. in a nutshell and simple explanation. what will the 650
give me other than the touchscreen. I read it now has airways?
Otherwise it doesnt look too much different than the 430?

I also worry about future ADS-B compatability as well as support from Garmin.
Even though Garmin says it will sell the 430w new for a few more years, I am hearing from several people it is already been listed in the discontinued section of Garmins website.

My biggest concern is I will spend the $8k to put this 430W in and
a year from now I will be needing or wanting the 650.

I am connecting the 430W to a 496 panel mounted.
So I will have all the features of the 496 as well.
 
"Even though Garmin says it will sell the 430w new for a few more years, I am hearing from several people it is already been listed in the discontinued section of Garmins website".

This not true, they discontinued the the 430, not the "W". I'm sure many will upgrade over time but for most of us there is not much incentive to make change. I was surprised that Garmin did not make a plug and play for the new 650 and did not offer a trade in program. There are a lot of 430Ws out there and I don't beleave people are talking about spending $10,000 more dollars to have a touch screen. Sure it has some nice new features and it looks "great" but the 430W is a fine tool and if you know how to use it, it works great. I would rather put the money in to synthetic vision or many other things, who knows? I'm waiting for the 950, I hear its going to be even better!!;)
 
I also upgraded to a 430W at the first of the year and wasn't pleased to see the new 650 but I think that the new units don't add enough to make me want to change. I don't have to have the latest and greatest just want trouble free and depenable. What will linking the 496 to your 430W allow you to do? Good luck with your install.
Dave
 
I think the confusion on if the website was due to the fact that they must have had an error or some one screwed up. For a day or two, they did show the 530W & 430W as discontinued but only on some of their webservers. Luck of the draw on what version you got.

I think that has been corrected now if you go to their site, there is an automatic filter option turned on that removes the 530W & 430W series. Uncheck that filter and they show up as current products...
 
I think if it was me and was at the build time, I would at least look more into its new futures/adds-on and possibly change to 650 despite a $1000 or so loss and another $$$ extra for the new unit. However, I am very leery on touch screen function and seriously doubt my ability to manipulate it during some turbulence with the kind of ease that would be to my comfort level during an IFR approach

Not knowing your other instruments, I believe the difference in $$$ can go in other places that would give me much more bang for the buck. I love my syntactic vision/EIFS and the updates and new features that are coming to those, often for free. Now days you can have geo-referenced approach plate on EIFS and/or IPAD, how long before Garmin comes up with new features to their already expensive unit?
 
Garmin isn't scared quite yet (and will charge lots of $$$) because nobody has a WAAS unit that can compete!
 
more...

What will linking the 496 to your 430W allow you to do? Good luck with your install.
Dave

It will supposedly allow me to enter my flight plan into the 430 and it will be automatically transferred to the 496. I wont have to enter it individually into each unit. Having the 496 following along allows me to use its much more detailed maps while in flight, also taxiway diagrams, weather, ect..

Having the two units working together may defeat the thought of needing/wanting to buy the GTN650.

It is only one or two wires to connect from the 430 harness to the 496.
 
When I start shopping for my panel, I'll be looking for some cheap 430s or 530s that have been replaced by the "latest and greatest". Just because the touch-screen/remote transponder control/etc bling box comes out, doesn't make the 430 any less capable than it was.
 
When I start shopping for my panel, I'll be looking for some cheap 430s or 530s that have been replaced by the "latest and greatest". Just because the touch-screen/remote transponder control/etc bling box comes out, doesn't make the 430 any less capable than it was.


Be careful. Garmin DOES NOT SUPPORT THE 28 VOLT 430 UNITS. A friend has a 28V 430 with a bad nav board. It will make a great boat anchor. Garmin will not repair it.
 
That would be great but there is no such thing as a cheap 430/530.....deals too good to be true are 95% of the time.
 
Sure there will be (cheap being a relative term). Avionics shops are already offering trade-in deals on 430s for GTNs. There will be no shortage of people willing to lose a couple grand on their current box to upgrade to the latest and greatest. Just look at the avionics being sold today as people upgrade their panels.
 
I don't think so. Today the average used price of a non-waas 430 is around $5K and that is one that is well used. Anything less is most likely a scam... They have been marked as obsolete for a few years now. The release of the 430W hardly had any impact on the used price for a 430 non W. I doubt the GTN series will have much impact on used prices for older units to us lowly experimental guys. Might bring the cost of installing one down a little in the certified world though.

I have seen no trade in deals advertized for the GTN but they might be out there. Where have you seen em?
 
I got my 430w new in box with complete install kit and antenna for $7900 shipping and tax included back around the first of December 2010.

Lots of folks dumping theirs for the new 650.

Mine I believe works from 11-33 volts or so. NOT an older 28v unit.



I do worry about the touchscreen in turbulance.
 
You can get a brand new one (430W) harness and all for $7460 from a well known dealer but that has nothing to do with the used prices.

I raised this question a couple times before because I could not understand why the used prices for obsolete gear remained so high. Never did make sense to me but that is the way it has been.....

Anyone that has dumped their 430W for a new GTN, please stand up and say I.........
 
I saw a trade deal on Barnstormers. I forget the name of the company but I think I found them in the Avionics section while browsing Garmin. I don't think you'll find too many guys who have dumped their 430s for 650s yet, but give it some time (the 650 was just released, after all).

Just an aside, not from an RV pilot, but I just interviewed with a company that uses a 530/430 stack. Their president is looking into swapping those out for the GTN system. Maybe if I get the job I can snag one of those obsolete, useless devices. :D
 
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I doubt he will having em line up at the door by only giving them a $2K credit AFTER the exchanged item sells.
 
If you want that deal I will give you the stated amount up front and pay for you to ship it to me just PM a phone #
Dave
 
Yeah it's pretty bad. I'm sure there are better deals out there, if not then folks will sell their current units directly.
 
IMO, I don't think you are going to see a glut of used 430's on the market, because for those with 430Ws already the economics don't support a trade-up just to have the latest and greatest. Over in the certified world, don't forget that the cost of these navigators is significantly higher because they have to pay for the install in addition to the box itself. Will some do it anyway? Sure, but not enough to create a large supply of low cost 430s on the used market. The primary buyers of the GTNs will be the OEMs, new experimental builders, and aircraft owners upgrading to a WAAS IFR navigator for the first time (ie not replacing an existing 430W/530W) and that simply isn't going to create a large supply of used boxes. I wish you luck in your quest for a cheap 430, but I'm not very optimistic.
 
stickin' with the 430w...and an FYI

For the past few years I have planned for a 430w in the panel. Cut the panel holes, already have the tray, backplate & harness, etc, etc. Then the GTN showed-up about the same time as I was getting ready to order the 430 unit. I talked to my avionics supplier about the whole deal, 430w vs GTN comparison.
I gave the GTN some serious thought. BUT... harness would need to change, possibly tray / backplate change?, shell out an extra $1800+ and not enough functionality difference to make me want to change my mind. We even discussed the economics of the whole thing...used prices, drop in price of 430 units, obsolescence, etc. I decided to stick with my original plan & ordered the 430w. There'll be some that think I made a mistake for buying new "old" technology...but that's what I did. In the back of my mind I couldn't help but think about everything I mentioned above plus a new package on the market and possible 'bugs' to be worked-out. I just didn't want to go down that road.

...and on another note: My same avionics supplier called and said my 430 would be delayed because the screens for them are made in Japan. You can guess why the delay. Reckon the GTN screens are made in Japan also? :eek:

edit:
Well as it turned out, I ended up getting the 650. The 'new plane...old technology' thing got the best of me.
2200 bucks to change which included a harness fix.
 
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You can all be sure the 430W and 530W will be discontinued before the end of this year. Remember only a couple years ago when the "W"s came out and Garmin swore they would not discontinue the 480? Yeah....thought you would remember that. So don't hold onto the 430W just because you think it won't be discontinued. Garmin has a history of not supporting a whole bunch of units and the 430/530's are 12 years old. I can also remember a few short years ago when nobody wanted a touch screen phone because of all kinds of silly reasons. It's just as easy to turn a dial too far or push a button too many times when in turbulence and the 430/530 screens have old technology coatings on them that the new units do not have. I think the reason to either keep a 430W or move up is a personal decision because you either like new technology that does lots more in one box and makes flying safer or you relish antiques because they simply function and look pretty.

By the way, just out of full disclosure, I'd be happy to pay a ridiculously low price for a used and functioning 430W so the more people that upgrade the better for guys like me:D
 
Hey Capflyer, I have a 1988 Chevy S-10 Blazer with 274 thousand miles on it. I am not a "get the latest and greatest technology guy" when what I have works quite well. You won't get my 430W for a song :)

Reference a later offer wondering if I will sell my Blazer, every time I fill it with gas I double the value of the Blazer.
 
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Saw a 430W for sale for $5,500... some guy upgrading to 650 is trying to unload it over on the Beech list.. that's actually a decent deal..
 
Hey Capflyer, I have a 1988 Chevy S-10 Blazer with 274 thousand miles on it. I am not a "get the latest and greatest technology guy" when what I have works quite well. You won't get my 430W for a song :)
Ron,
I thought for sure you were going to offer to sell your Chevy for a reasonable price!

Just out of full disclosure, my 430W is for sell so I can upgrade to the new 650. The first $9995.00 can have it and I even cover the shipping to CONUS.
 
I don't think so. Today the average used price of a non-waas 430 is around $5K and that is one that is well used. Anything less is most likely a scam... They have been marked as obsolete for a few years now. The release of the 430W hardly had any impact on the used price for a 430 non W. I doubt the GTN series will have much impact on used prices for older units to us lowly experimental guys. Might bring the cost of installing one down a little in the certified world though.

There seems to be quite a lot of 430Ws available from reputable sources on Ebay for $5000. Logic dictates that the non WAAS 430 has to be significantly cheaper. I note that there's one non WAAS 430 currently on Ebay where the bidding has come to a standstill at $4200. Expect these indicative prices to drop substantially over the next 12 months.

Garmin will not continue to manufacture the 430....period. They will continue to sell units only for as long as it takes them to run down existing stocks of components. That is their commercial modus operandi. That might only take a few months. When that time comes they will officially discontinue the product. Then you will see a major slump in resale value of used units as potential purchasers of used units worry about future support (or lack thereof). It's a universal truth for all electronic devices these days and will be true of the 430 as well. And within 4 or 5 years when some critical repair components are no longer available for the 430 it will go the way of the GX60 and become virtually worthless.
 
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There seems to be quite a lot of 430Ws available from reputable sources on Ebay for $5000. .

Just because an item is listed at a starting bid of $5K does not mean that is what it sells for or what the reserve bid is.

Take a look and tell me how many good 430W's have sold for $5K in the past 90 days????? The lowest one I found was $6222.00.

I note that there's one non WAAS 430 currently on Ebay where the bidding has come to a standstill at $4200. .

If you know anything about Ebay, you know that most serious bidders wait till the last second to place a bid. I did a search of sold 430 non WAAS units and as far as it lets you look back, there were 7 sold from the USA. The average price was $5065.00 for a non WAAS unit.


Garmin will not continue to manufacture the 430....period. They will continue to sell units only for as long as it takes them to run down existing stocks of components. That is their commercial modus operandi. That might only take a few months. When that time comes they will officially discontinue the product. SNIP

SNIP It's a universal truth for all electronic devices these days and will be true of the 430 as well. And within 4 or 5 years when some critical repair components are no longer available for the 430 it will go the way of the GX60 and become virtually worthless.

This I agree with...100%
 
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more..

Still trying to make my decision on what to do.

does anyone know if the database updates are more pricey for the GTN650 vs. the GNS430W ?


Can anyone chime in what else the 650 can do over the 430.
I am only seeing higher resolution, touch screen, and Airways....??

I suppose I need to make another phone call to Garmin too.
 
Can anyone chime in what else the 650 can do over the 430.
I am only seeing higher resolution, touch screen, and Airways....??

IS this all?
 
From what I read it will also display the Garmin SafeTaxi for certain airports and can access select transponders remotely. The 750 has some other additional features as well but thats a whole different story :)
 
There is a nice intro vid on the GTN boxes here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36yNypiPmkA

As an aside, something to think about when considering "all in one" boxes and newer gizmos. Just for background, I don't have a ton of time flying the 430/530, right around 500 hours or so (all IFR single pilot in a fast twin). I also have time in planes using FMS boxes for navigation. What I see in the newer devices is a cleaner look with less buttons and knobs, but more effort (or steps) to access the standard features that pilots often have to mess with. For example, during the video, the Garmin rep demonstrates changing the transponder code through the GTN. To access that, he had to push part of the screen to bring up the transponder function (thus inhibiting the normal nav display), typing in a code, then pushing another button to minimize the transponder menu. In a typical installation you see today with a separate transponder, the pilot would simply press the dedicated transponder buttons to change the code. All the stuff I have flown has had fairly minimal soft keys, and in my opinion, because of that the pilot workload is lower than what appears on the GTN and other devices with "all in one" knobs and soft keys. It will be interesting to hear reports from pilots on whether they're spending more time programming functions on the GTN boxes versus older radio stack setups.
 
650 garmin

Has any one got the 650 installed and had some actual time using it while flying. Getting ready to up grade panel to a 650 or 430w
Tim
 
430W vs 650

The 650 Garmin GPS has a nice featrure using and inexpensive SD card for data storage instead of the expensive Jeppesen data card. Interesting though, that once the SD card is programmed it can only be used in that particular 650. Programming the SD card sure is easier by not needing a data loader for a hundred bucks from Jeppesen or Garmin.

If you are going to fly in another airplane with a 650, one cannot take the nav data card and use it in a different 650, it knows it's own unit..

Clarity of the terrain and airways is a very nice feature in the 650 making transitions much easier. Especially if cleared from a direct flight having to return to a particular airway due to ATC radar coverage or outages. This feature saves from ginning up a tablet/Ipad or flipping paper charts around to become orientated to the airway.
 
Can anyone chime in what else the 650 can do over the 430.
I am only seeing higher resolution, touch screen, and Airways....??

IS this all?

I fly with the 750/650 quite often, the 430w not as much but I know both systems well.

The GTN650 in the airplane (not an RV) is linked with a 750, so the 750 handles a lot of what is going on transponder, audio panel, etc. However, I like to think of the 650 as a combination of the 430 and the handheld series. You get your GPS Map, Weather, Flight Planner, Navaids, Com/nav, Traffic and your procedures from the 430. You then get your Music, Charts, Airport layouts from the Handhelds. Another added benefit of the 650 is the improved radio clarity(personal opinion), vertical guidance on GPS, ADS-b Goodies and frequency database. If I am not mistaken the 650 also takes care of the transponder (Ex. the transponder auto switches from standby to reporting on its own.).

The 650 and company also tries to keep track of range, I don't really think it is all that useful. You put in what 'should' be your burn rate and then how much fuel you have on board at engine start. It is about as accurate as just looking at the fuel gauge. If it was pulling your GPH from your EFIS/EIS, that would be one thing, but its just kinda guessing at what your range 'should' be.

I personally like the touchscreen on the 650. The interface does require some time to get used to, but once you figure it out it becomes second nature. But that's from a Student Pilots prospective.

http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=5379
The link above is the trainer for the GTN series.
 
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650's seem to have dropped in price recently. 9500 can be easily found. They were well over 10k not long ago.
George
 
where?

9500 would be a good price. One on Ebay now, but seller has made it unable to ask questions so poss bogus sale? Please tell me where they are selling for 9500...best price I can get from a Garmin installer is 9800. thx
 
9500 would be a good price. One on Ebay now, but seller has made it unable to ask questions so poss bogus sale? Please tell me where they are selling for 9500...best price I can get from a Garmin installer is 9800. thx

Call Stein Air. Not sure what price you will get but you can't beat the total experience dealing with him and his folks.
 
discontinued

Most likely old news, as this is an old thread. Talked with Garmin rep today. He mentioned should be announced that end of this year, 430W is finished. He checked and zero balance of units in system. (obviously not able to see what dealers have on their shelf) They will continue to service them while they have the parts and said that could be several years. Passing along what I heard. DM
 
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