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Cold flying

olderthandirt

Well Known Member
Went up today, temp outside was 28 degrees...highest temp engine ever got to was 131 degrees...in the black on widget..flew for I/2 hour and decided it might not be good for engine to fly at this temp so aborted flight....question is was I correct in worrying with temp at 131...I can cover oil cooler but then always worry if temp outside goes up will it over heat??? Very...I mean very hard to start...
 
Would advise for sure - -

You need some type of engine pre-heater. Starting a very cold 912 is a good way to ruin the sprag in the starter system. Very expensive to fix.
 
You need some type of engine pre-heater. Starting a very cold 912 is a good way to ruin the sprag in the starter system. Very expensive to fix.

I second the expensive comment since I just replaced one.

Mark aka "Skunkworks" had one of these and I got one. I am very happy with the heater. Low electric bill for the cold months in Maine

https://aerothermheaters.com/

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Blow warm from the bottom and suck the return from the oil door.
 
Went up today, temp outside was 28 degrees...highest temp engine ever got to was 131 degrees...

I have a thermostasis kit from Aircraft Specialty, covered the oil radiator 2,25" and have the "Bender baffle". Last week it was also around 28F in the Netherlands. Hangar was about 45F. Before startup I fully close the Bender Baffle. When I arrive at the holding point (2000ft taxi distance) the engine is around 120F. During flight I was able to maintain all temps around 210F. With the baffle almost closed I used approximately a quarter cabin heat otherwise it will be too hot in the flight deck.
 
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Good evening.

We specifically developed a Thermostasis install kit for the RV-12 which has proven to be popular in the colder weather climates. It significantly reduces engine warm up times as well as allows the oil temperature to remain much higher in flight and descent. No baffles are required. The complete kit includes hoses, fittings and the thermostat.

The hoses are all conductive Teflon fire sleeved hoses with an unlimited service life and a 10 year warranty.

If you have any questions, we are more than happy to discuss the installation. Please feel free to contact us or see our detailed install manual on the website.

They are built to order, and right now lead times run about 1-2 weeks.

This kit was released in late 2014 and we have had very good reports from those installing them.

Happy Building/Flying
Steve
 
pre heat

o.k. like Aircraft specialties thermostasis kit but still need engine warm so it will start...what is best pre heater for RV 12/rotax setup..thanks
 
Very pleased with - -

REIFF Pre-heat kit. I have mine plugged in all winter long. It is about 6 years old or more. Keeps entire engine about 90+ degrees if you cover engine with a cover of sorts. Was about $220 I think back then. Nothing against other more expensive kits, but just adds cost and complexity. Not hard to install REIFF.
 
Last year I used two hair dryers with short pieces of scat tubing shoved into the two cowl holes. I put a blanket over the cowling and a hunk of foam into to oval air inlet. At 30F ambient it took about 20 minutes for the EMS to show 70F on both oil and water temps. Worked pretty good.

That said, I'm saving up for a REIFF pre-heat kit which will have a safety timer turned on by remote cell phone switch. I plan on "calling" the plane a few hours before I drive out to the hanger and it will be warm when I get there. If I get weigh-layed the timer will shut off the heater for safety.
 
Reiff pre heat

I ordered the Reiff engine heater, they shipped same day..looking forward to putting it on and using aircraft once again during these very cold and clear winter days...only draws 100 watts so not costly to run..like a 100 watt light bulb...so will keep it plugged in all winter...
 
I ordered the Reiff engine heater, they shipped same day..looking forward to putting it on and using aircraft once again during these very cold and clear winter days...only draws 100 watts so not costly to run..like a 100 watt light bulb...so will keep it plugged in all winter...

Just ordered mine too.. Just decided it was a less expensive way to go then chance damage to engine with cold temps.

Also going to install "Bender Baffle" for crew comfort��
 
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Engine heater

So now the discussion at hanger is: Leave it plugged in all the time or just night before flying...however I never know if I will fly because weather change so much overnight...and it was brought up that leaving it plugged in all the time contributes to moister condensation on inside of engine resulting in rust forming on cam and cylinder walls....guess there has been record of this happening on Lycomings etc....comments appreciated
 
Are you talking about your Rotax? Does the heater go on the oil reservoir or on the engine? To pre-warm the oil, it would need to go on the reservoir which would make the condensation issue moot since its not on the engine. If the heater is on the engine, I don't see the point of that. There's no oil in there and condensation would be a concern.
 
So now the discussion at hanger is: Leave it plugged in all the time or just night before flying...however I never know if I will fly because weather change so much overnight...and it was brought up that leaving it plugged in all the time contributes to moister condensation on inside of engine resulting in rust forming on cam and cylinder walls....guess there has been record of this happening on Lycomings etc....comments appreciated

Are a number of articles on the Reiff website that support leaving the system plugged in 100% of the time. The Aviation Consumer article specifically addresses condensation and corrosion.

From the Aviation Consumer, March 2007, pg. 23


Can't print the article due to their copyright, but you can buy a copy off their web site. Here are a few excerpts:

They instrumented a Continental 520 on a Bonanza that was equipped with our the Reiff Standard System. The preheat system was plugged in and they recorded internal crankcase temperature and %RH (relative humidity) data over a 7 day span. During that period ambient temps ranged from teens to 30F.

Results... The internal RH started at 60%RH at ambient temperature. After about 12 hrs of heating it stabilized at about 120F and 15%RH and it held pretty constant for 7 days.

Conclusion... "These findings don't support the view that preheaters cause corrosion."

"Clearly, a preheater seems to dry the engine out, not cause it to behave like a terrarium."

"While our experiment is far from definitive and doesn't consider all possible ambient conditions, it does seem to show that far from causing corrosion, an always-on preheater actually appears to benefit the engine."
 
Electric heaters are used for the purpose of preventing condensation in cabinets containing electrical and/or electronic equipment. My opinion is that electric heat will cause dryness, not dampness. Unvented propane or natural gas heaters WILL cause dampness because one of the byproducts of combustion is water.
 
on the other hand.........law of physics says you double the chemical reaction rate for every 10 deg. c. rise in temp. rusting is a chemical reaction.
i talked to reiff about this at osh a few years ago but as i remember you were still better off with the heat.anyone else talked to reiff about that aspect?
 
condenstion

it is my very non professional opinion that plugged in all the time must keep things warmer and less condensation, consequentially less rust etc..plus being able to fly at drop of hat...thanks for all the help and comments..
 
Corrosion

OK Folks ….. I’m going to go out on a limb here regarding the corrosion issue and say heated or unheated, the corrosion issue would be minimal in the Rotax engine as installed on the RV-12. I may be all wet about this, but I feel the ideas mentioned thus far need to be narrowed to the Rotax engine specifically.

My reasoning is based on my belief that the Rotax oil system is a closed system …. in that, there is no direct venting on the Rotax crankcase directly to the atmosphere as opposed to a traditional aircraft engine, which vents directly to the crankcase of the engine. This is a BIG difference. Thus, it would appear to me that it would be very difficult to develop significant moisture deep inside the Rotax engine once the oil has been above 212 degrees for an extended period of time … because at that point, there is no moisture inside the engine and no direct path for atmospheric moisture into the crankcase via a crankcase vent tube as there is with a traditional engine. Because of the location of the Rotax oil tank in the RV-12, the oil lines between the oil tank and engine isolate the atmosphere presented to the oil tank from the vent line … thus preventing atmosphere from directly entering the Rotax crankcase because residual oil in the oil lines block the direct path for moisture to get inside the engine’s crankcase from the oil tank.

Of course, as with any standard aircraft engine, there is a path for moisture to get into the cylinders through open intake or exhaust valves. To my way of thinking, the potential corrosion areas would be any exposed cylinders themselves, the heads or tops of the pistons … as it would be for any standard aircraft engine. Seemingly, the majority of the internal engine components such as the crank, rods, cam, push rods, lifter/rocker arms, valve stems, and the clutch/gear reduction unit would, by in large, be spared from corrosion due to the lack of direct contact with the atmosphere.

As such, I suspect the use of a block and oil tank heater on the Rotax will be beneficial overall for starts in really cold weather without the worry of creating an atmosphere for corrosion developing deep inside the engine. For the Rotax, guessing turning on the heater the evening prior to a desired flight would be sufficient to minimize the moisture buildup inside the combustion chambers of those cylinders with open valves.

The above is just a theoretical guess on my part and not based on any conclusive testing. I would be very interested in hearing what others think about this. Perhaps one of the more experienced Rotax mechanics can offer some real world experience to the topic.
 
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ACS remark

Good luck calling ACS anytime I have nobody knows anything about the products they sell.
 
It has been said that regularly used flight school aircraft engines operate for more hours between overhauls than infrequently used private aircraft engines. Engines get hot while running. Does that mean that hot engines corrode less? :D
The temperature at which an engine is stored is not as important as the temperature at which an engine is started. Starting a cold engine causes a lot more wear than starting a warm engine.
 
Yes, but how do you explain automobile engines operating in northern climates? The engine in my car has been started hundred's or even thousand's of times at below freezing temperatures with no pre-heat. My car sits cold-soaked all winter long and I'm unable to detect any ill-effects or reduction in service life.
 
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Yes, but how do you explain automobile engines operating in northern climates? The engine in my car has been started hundred's or even thousand's of times at below freezing temperatures with no pre-heat. My car sits cold-soaked all winter long and I'm unable to detect any ill-effects or reduction in service life.
Lower cold cranking ampherage and this engine is built with a much, much tighter tolerance. That compression ratio is a lot more. Throw in freezing temperatures and that is what you get.
 
All batteries suffer reduced cold-cranking-amps at low temperatures. It's just a fact - autos and airplanes alike, so no difference there.

I'd bet my Toyota Prius engine, with 13:1 compression running Atkinson cycle, is built with very close tolerances. The engine not only has to start in cold temps but also starts/stops dozens of times for each in-city trip.
 
Quick Engine Preheater

I wanted to fly the other day when it was cold and clear. After researching posts here, I put this together out of stuff at the hangar. The blocks of wood support the axles during tire maintenance, the orange heater gets used during annuals and the galvanized sheet metal is a clean drip pan for under the engine. It worked great. Would never leave it un-attended, though and the heater control was left at the lowest setting. Checked belly for warmth and stayed cool enough to hold my hand on it. Air coming out the inlet nostrils was cold at first, then warmed up nicely after preflight and opening the doors and talking to my neighbor. Engine started and sounded nice. RV climbed like a scalded ape in the cold dense air with only me aboard.


RV7%20Heater_zps6ps0j69k.jpg
 
Quick Engine Preheater

PS: That white com antenna in the photo is actually off to one side and not being heated.
 
I wanted to fly the other day when it was cold and clear. After researching posts here, I put this together out of stuff at the hangar. The blocks of wood support the axles during tire maintenance, the orange heater gets used during annuals and the galvanized sheet metal is a clean drip pan for under the engine. It worked great. Would never leave it un-attended, though and the heater control was left at the lowest setting. Checked belly for warmth and stayed cool enough to hold my hand on it. Air coming out the inlet nostrils was cold at first, then warmed up nicely after preflight and opening the doors and talking to my neighbor. Engine started and sounded nice. RV climbed like a scalded ape in the cold dense air with only me aboard.


RV7%20Heater_zps6ps0j69k.jpg

You are going to equip your bird with O2....when you have finished attaching your ram jet mod to the under carriage for flights above flight level 60???
 


Smoking around aircraft is not a good idea, much less operating a blowing flame such as this. There is just too much flammable material around. You would be better off to locate the heater some distance away and conduct the heated air to the aircraft with some appropriate duct hose.

Better yet, get an electric sump/cylinder heater and plug it in.

Bevan
 
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I took my 12 up today in the frigid 49F of PHX. The engine ran rough until 122F oil temp at run up. At altitude OAT was 22F with oil temp at 166F and CHT about 175F. I don't have a thermostat in either the oil or coolant system. The heater was pretty much useless at 22F OAT, and I saw no change in CHT with cabin heat applied or secure. Just posting to add a data point.

Rich
 
I had the Reiff on my RV-7A and I intend to install it on the RV-12 at the appropriate time. I couldn't be happier with it.

I usually just plug it in the night before. On the 7's last flight, the outside air temp was -20. The oil was a toasty 100. Be sure to order the heater for the sump AND the cylinders.

And old sleeping bag slung over the top completes the look.

Propane and kerosene heaters aimed at the plane? Not for me.
 
I wanted to fly the other day when it was cold and clear. After researching posts here, I put this together out of stuff at the hangar. The blocks of wood support the axles during tire maintenance, the orange heater gets used during annuals and the galvanized sheet metal is a clean drip pan for under the engine. It worked great. Would never leave it un-attended, though and the heater control was left at the lowest setting. Checked belly for warmth and stayed cool enough to hold my hand on it. Air coming out the inlet nostrils was cold at first, then warmed up nicely after preflight and opening the doors and talking to my neighbor. Engine started and sounded nice. RV climbed like a scalded ape in the cold dense air with only me aboard.
RV7%20Heater_zps6ps0j69k.jpg
That's a wonderful setup. Gonna' have to try that.
 
That's a wonderful setup. Gonna' have to try that.

I do believe you would have a real problem putting in an insurance claim for a burnt up plane using this method.

Probably wouldn't happen in 100 uses....but would be a total loss not only to plane...also hangar (and other planes in shared hangar).
 
Been using a 1800 watt hair dryer for preheat for years. Easy to use and light(15 oz) to carry along with you in the plane . Even set on low it has things ready to go in about 30 minutes.
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Brad Stiefvater
Salem SD
 
Anything that makes a spark can ignite gasoline. If a hair dryer or heater has a motor with brushes, there are sparks. The on-off switch will also make a spark. So an open flame heater might not be any more dangerous than a hair dryer. Gasoline vapors are heavier than air. So the higher the ignition source is off from the floor, the safer it is. An ignition source sitting on the floor is in an area with the highest concentration of gasoline vapors.
 
A good word about REIFF - -

I installed the REIFF system. Think it was $220 a few years ago. I leave it plugged in all winter. If you cover the engine also, all 5 of the temp sensors are within a degree or two of each other. Can't improve on that. Very happy so far.
 
Prepping the oil sump for Reiff install

Hi all,

I want to install the Reiff oil heaters on my O-360 A1A. I installed the cylinder bands last year.

The Reiff instructions say to remove any "anodizing" and paint from the sump's surface then clean with Acetone.

I confess my ignorance: are oil sumps aluminum and are they anodized?

If so what should be used to remove that?

And if you remove paint/anodizing from the sump on an area larger than the
glue surface of the heating pad, is that exposed surface now susceptible to corrosion? If so, what's the best way to seal it? Some of the Epoxy?

Thanks
 
I bought myself a Christmas present; an insulated engine cover from Aircraftcovers.com.
The red bag is the storage bag.
I'm really impressed by the quality and fit (even a protrusion for the exhaust). The Reiff preheater is switched by a WiFi switch (DRH-704 ~ €35,-). Will take some temperature measurements next week.

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The reflective N-number is just the icing on a very nice cake.

For just $20,- extra ;-) The cover is not cheap but it's really a beautiful cover


Can you tell us about your WiFi switch?

I initially was looking for a switch with a GSM sim. Thoose switches are more expensive and you need an extra sim card. The company selling thoose switches came with this solution. You only need Wifi in the hangar, no ports forwarding or oher network stuff etc. The switch is controlled with an IOS/Android app. This switch is 240V btw. Works awesome
 
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I?ll butt in here?. I have a cell phone relay switch because I can?t get a WiFi signal at the hanger. If you?re one of the lucky ones who has a strong WiFi signal then I suspect this https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sonoff-Swi...289984&hash=item2ac836da93:g:GL8AAOSwj~VcmErZ would work just fine. Rated at 2200 watts so it will operate an engine preheater.

Personally for something like this I'd spend a couple extra bucks to get a trusted name brand from a reputable source, and look for the UL listing. Just watch Big Clive on YouTube tear down some of these eBay "Chinese automatic house ignitors," as he calls them. :D
 
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