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Riveting the Forward Skin in the Gear Towers

mlwynn

Well Known Member
Hi all,

After about a year of wiring and potschkying, I started riveting on the front fuselage skin. Definitely some interesting reaches the the bucking. We got to the gear towers and stood their with a collective head scratch. With all the wires and controls and fuel vent tubing, I am not quite sure how we are going to get these rivets bucked. Ditto some of the ones right next the to rear baggage bulkhead.

Has anyone else had this issue? Got any tricks? Did anyone eventually surrender and end up using cherrymax blind rivets?

Scratching head

Michael Wynn
RV 8 Finishing
San Ramon, CA
 
Has anyone else had this issue? Got any tricks? Did anyone eventually surrender and end up using cherrymax blind rivets?


Do you mean that row that joins the top skin to the longeron, side skin, and top of the towers? Uh.....I can tell you that once it's painted, only an EXPERT (with a magnifying glass) will tell that you used Cherry's instead of driven rivets.
 
Do you mean that row that joins the top skin to the longeron, side skin, and top of the towers? Uh.....I can tell you that once it's painted, only an EXPERT (with a magnifying glass) will tell that you used Cherry's instead of driven rivets.

Ditto - structural blind rivets in mine too!
 
tungsten bucking bar

I used a thin tungsten bucking bar. I believe I used my 3/4"x1-1/2"x2" bar. Its still a tight fit but doable. You have to hold the bar at a slight angle and roll the bar level with the surface as the rivet is driven. Sounds awkward but pretty easy to do.
 
I used a thin tungsten bucking bar. I believe I used my 3/4"x1-1/2"x2" bar. Its still a tight fit but doable. You have to hold the bar at a slight angle and roll the bar level with the surface as the rivet is driven. Sounds awkward but pretty easy to do.

I was able to buck them using this same combination. Almost every hole with solid rivets but one.
 
It was cheaper for me to use Cherrys than buy a special bucking bar.
They went in perfect and I moved on to the next project.
 
What size rivets

What size and type rivets did you use? These need to be structural. Cherry makes a 3/32 countersunk but the cherry measuring device only fits into 1/8th holes so I am a little unsure what size/length/type would be most appropriate.

Thanks,

Michael Wynn
RV 8 Finishing
San Ramon, CA
 
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What size and type rivets did you use? These need to be structural. Cherry makes a 3/32 countersunk but the cherry measuring device only fits into 1/8th holes so I am a little unsure what size/length/type would be most appropriate.

CR3214-4-4, if you need some right away, I have a bunch. PM me or email me at [email protected].

-Chris
 
What size and type rivets did you use? These need to be structural....
Michael,

Reworking #40 holes to accept larger diameter 1/8" flush Cherry rivets is quite easy. Here are two older posts that describe in words and pictures the ease and utility of using 1/8" structural blind Cherry rivets to replace AD3 solid rivets in difficult or impossible to reach areas:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=335463&postcount=12

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=205022&postcount=3
 
Doesn't cure your current problem, but for the benefit of those that follow......rivet the skin on before you add the plumbing and wires.

Honestly, I have no idea why folks don't finish structure before rigging, other than it's what they heard they should do. I've done two "skin on" and it's not hard. The most recent was completely painted inside and out.
 
Ease of Access

......Honestly, I have no idea why folks don't finish structure before rigging......
No idea? Obviously, different strokes for different folks. The following thoughts do not apply to quickbuilders. I found that while comfortably seated on a shop stool outside the standard kit airplane, it was far easier to complete the rigging...specifically installing the fuel vent and brake lines before installing the outer skin. Later, the addition of wiring routed through the gear towers easily adds to the clutter making access increasingly difficult. The simplest "workaround" I know of involves the installation of a few structural blind rivets after the side skin is permanently attached. That is a small price I enthusiastically pay. On the other hand, if any talented builder feels more comfortable running, routing and attaching those aluminum lines and all wiring while gaining access through the small lightening holes on the gear towers on a standard, not quickbuild kit....all the while crouched inside the cramped confines of the cockpit, well sir, I freely admit they are more dexterous than I am.

xkywb9.jpg
 
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Preparation for -4 Cherrymax

To answer Dan, the instructions with the fuselage kit said to delay installing the forward skin until all the wiring was done. I can see in retrospect that the access is not all that bad, especially with the modification of making a door in the rear baggage bulkhead. Still, I think wiring would have been quite a lot more difficult.

To use -4 cherrymax rivets, I can see the ease of reaming the hole to #30. What is the best way to enlarge the dimple? I clearly can't do an additional countersink in the longeron and then dimple the sides. Use a countersink? That would take a little metal off the forward skin. The skin is pretty thin. Suppose that will be structurally sound? Is that how others have handled it?

The -3 cherrymax rivets are available but are not very robust looking. Advice?

I reviewed Rick's previously site post on this. Looks like it worked out okay for him to do a slight machine countersink on the skin. Everyone okay with that?

Regards,

Michael Wynn
RV 8 finishing
San Ramon, CA
 
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If I recall correctly, the CR3214-4-4 rivets have a small head that fits the original dimple. You only need to enlarge the hole to #30 to fit the rivet body.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Qty-CR3214-4-3-CherryMAX-rivets-Cherry-Max-/130459166869
The link is an offer for 10 ea CR3214-4-3 with a picture. The head looks small, as I mentioned.
Rick;
I'm with the structure first, wiring & systems after, but I admit the fuel tank vents were a pain and yours look very nice.
I just feel that you want to add wires etc. after you build structure so you can access them later if needed. After all, working on built-in items you can't get to....would be frustrating.
 
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.....I'm with the structure first, wiring & systems after.....I just feel that you want to add wires etc. after you build structure so you can access them later if needed......
Scott,

I am not sure what point you are making. You say you prefer the "structure first" approach but as it turns out, for lack of an appropriate bucking bar, you chose to install blind rivets along the upper gear tower anyway. What am I missing? So I am asking. Finding yourself needing to install blind rivets anyway, did you or did you not install the skin first? If you did rivet the skin on (structure first) and needed to use blind rivets anyway, do you not see the irony?

In the end, whatever approach you used (skin on, skin off) really doesn't matter unless you put a premium on much easier access and the undeniable convenience of working from the sitting position on a stool as opposed to folding up the body and finding yourself contorting about the internal structure. Strictly your choice. The quickbuild fuselage does not give you that option because the only choice with the quickbuild fuselage is to fish, route and securely attach those aluminum lines all the while working through small lightening holes. I don't know how you can feel your way through those lightening holes with that soft aluminum tubing without risk of kinking it at some point and then there is the question of neatness. You want those lines to be secure and you don't want anything loose, rubbing or chaffing. A flashlight and mirror becomes your chief means of verifying quality. Obviously, that awkward approach must work because people successfully do it all the time as your average quickbuilder can attest. Personally, when assembling a slow build kit, I'd rather work smarter than harder.

You may have slightly misinterpreted my prior post because I did not suggest nor did I route wires through the gear towers prior to riveting the side skins into place. In my experience, at that point in the assembly process I had little idea what wires or the number of wires to be ultimately routed through the towers. The only prep work I did for that eventuality was to drill a couple of entry and exit holes in the gear towers for the routing of wires to come much later in the assembly process. Yet again, I should point out that not having the skin nailed on (structure first) made drilling the upper regions of the gear towers a much easier task because.....yep, you guessed it.....better access.

You are reasonably correct that the head diameter of the CR3214-4 rivet *will* fit in the original dimple....marginally, I suppose....but it will sit a bit proud. Stickler for detail that I am, achieving optimum surface flushness requires the #40 dimpled hole to be very slightly machine countersunk. A few turns with a hand deburring tool is all it takes, very little material is actually removed. A few shavings at most. Only then will you find that that blind 1/8" dia. Cherry rivet will achieve optimum surface flushness while sitting in an existing #40 dimple just as smoothly and unobtrusively as all the other surrounding rivets.

One last note: For the benefit of other builders who at some point may wish to use CR3214-4 rivets on the gear towers, above the instrument panel or anywhere else, take note. It is easy enough, very easy in fact to quickly test the technique without touching the airplane. First, drill two #40 holes in a scrap piece of .032 aluminum, the same substantial thickness the side skins are. Dimple both holes with a #40 dimple die. Now ream both holes up to #30. Slightly machine countersink one hole, leave the other hole just exactly the way it is. Now test fit Cherry rivets inserted into both holes. Set the fasteners if you want to. Compare the side by side results. Draw your own conclusions.
 
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Aircraft Spruce - Wrong Rivets

Hi,

For the first time in many years, I had a problem with my Aircraft Spruce order.
Things, happen, so I'm not too upset. I am upset that despite the holiday hours listed on the website, yesterday, Saturday 12/24, I could not get through to customer service despite multiple calls and after 1/2 hour on hold and repeatedly being caller #1 and next in line.

The thing that may be of concern is that they sent the wrong / mismarked rivets. I ordered the 25 pack of CR3212-4-4 and that's what the package said, but they sent the oversize versions: CR3242.

That's only a 15 thousands (.1440 - .1285 = 0.015) difference.

Does anyone see a problem going with them for those too tough to buck rivets on the top skin in the gear tower area? They require a #27 drill.
 
phapp,

You don't want to use either of those rivets. As Rick pointed out above, the rivet to use is the 3214-4-4. The 3212 has a standard head size, while the 3214 has a reduced head size that is very close to an ad3 rivet. You can get them in packs of ten from General Aircraft Hardware.

http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/store.asp

-Chris
 
... the only choice with the quickbuild fuselage is to fish, route and securely attach those aluminum lines all the while working through small lightening holes.

Not quite. You're aware of the tower access mod.....and the requirement to re-torque gear bolts on a regular basis, standard or QB.

x52ofa.jpg


You may have slightly misinterpreted my prior post because I did not suggest nor did I route wires through the gear towers prior to riveting the side skins into place.

So in the context of gear tower access you're only talking about placing the aluminum tubing?
 
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A Tale of Two Towers

Dan H,

I hope I can answer your question satisfactorily. For the sake of clarity, I’m glad you included a pic of a modified gear tower, presumably installed on your quickbuild with its side skins already riveted into place, in the process the factory relieving you from having to complete a substantial amount of sheet metal work yourself. Your detail photo helps make a direct comparison with my unmodified gear tower easier to visualize. Thank you. The quickbuilder realizes that because the factory already installed the forward fuselage side skin, there arises a technical obstacle that must be dealt with later. You see at some point in the instruction manual, standard kit or quickbuild, Van’s will direct the builder to size, route, fit and secure one hydraulic and one fuel vent line co-mingling inside each gear tower. What we all know is that access to complete that plumbing work is severely limited and normally, that work can only be accomplished by gaining access through a series of 3 small lightening holes, often working and assembling components by sense of feel. Challenging task. Not quite as challenging as drilling holes in the canopy or building a leak free fuel tank but it is a challenging task to do right knowing there are a number of ways to complete that job less than correctly.

Now I can easily imagine it was a quickbuild guy who originally came up with the popular gear tower modification (was it you?) if for no other reason than to assure long lasting high quality results with an important section of aircraft plumbing that will forever be obscured from plain view. Pretty simple mod really, in essence, making one lightening hole out of two. I’m all for ease of access. If I purchased a quickbuild, I’d likely do the same thing. Being able to more easily retorque the gear leg bolts is a nice bonus.

But it is important to understand that while my comments, including those words you thought to quote may not be relevant in your experience, those words are entirely consistent with construction realities faced by RV builders choosing to forgo any such modification work, preferring instead to adhere to the directions and specifications called out by the factory drawings and builders manual. ;)

35jxymt.jpg
 
Gear Leg Bolts Torque

Sorry this is slightly off topic. I have heard this ocassionally but cannot find it documented where there is a manditory gear bolt torque inspection. Nothing listed on the mother ship site unless I missed it. Can someone please point me in the right direction? I'm trying to decide if the tower mod is something I want to do and now is the time on the current project.
 
Stock Items! CR3214-4-*

This is what got us into small packs of Cherrymax and we sell alot!
Here was our post in the thread that started it.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=346828&postcount=6


We are working on a new Webstore and it is not out yet.

The current one is still serving, here are the cherrymax that rv8 guys have bought so many of.

You may call us or order from the webstore.

http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/store.asp?alternate=CR3214%2D4%2D03+PKG%2F10

http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/store.asp?alternate=CR3214%2D4%2D04+PKG%2F10
 
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Problem Solved

Hi all,

Thought I would tell you all how this worked out for me. I swapped a couple of PM with Chris Welsh. I ended up getting some CR 3214-4-4 rivets from Chris. With a couple of twists of a deburring tool, they fit flush and pretty. Paul was right, with a little polishing from a stone to smooth off the top, they are pretty hard to tell from the bucked rivets.

ACS does not carry these rivets nor mention their existence. Chris is practically a neighbor (and the producer of a really nice rear throttle control) and was kind enough to supply me with the correct size. Otherwise, I might have ended up trying to use a regular 1/8 Cherry, which would have required some serious reaming. It is good to see regular suppliers appear here to help future builders if/when they encounter the issue.

So, once again, the VAF comes to my rescue.

Regards,

Michael Wynn
RV8 Baggage Door
San Ramon, CA
 
Sorry this is slightly off topic. I have heard this ocassionally but cannot find it documented where there is a manditory gear bolt torque inspection. Nothing listed on the mother ship site unless I missed it. Can someone please point me in the right direction? I'm trying to decide if the tower mod is something I want to do and now is the time on the current project.
Mike - Build Manual 8-44 - after 10 and 50 hours then anually.

Regards

Bob Ellis
www.rv-8.co.uk
Wiring nearly complete
 
oops

Just to bring this back up on the radar. I started to read this post and jumped on the first thing I read - ordered the "wrong" rivets which was very easy to do since Aircraft Spruce has lots of them in stock and you can buy them in quantities of one. I should have read the majority / multiple folks said get the 3214 rivets and the company "Genuine Aircraft Hardware" even chimed in as a source for the harder to find rivets (at a very fair price)

So, bottom line: go to the above source and order 3214-4-04 Cherrymax rivets and save yourself a lot of trouble and pain trying to get those an rivets set.

Kudos to you folks who can bend that way and set normal rivets!


Now I gotta go try to knock out some 3212s. :eek:
 
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Cherrymax 3214 -4-4 (fit #3 dimple)

I wound up buying 100 of these to rivet the boot cowl to the top of the gear tower and longeron on our -8. You typically need about 14 for an RV-8 - at least that's what I used.

If anyone is looking for some, send me a PM.
 
Need CR3214-4-04 Rivets

Raisbeck . . . I’ve PM’d you regarding your CR3214-4-04 structural rivets. If you have any left I’m interested in purchasing them.

If anyone else has some of these to sell, let me know.
[email protected]
 
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