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How to land the RV 8?

USAFhokie

I'm New Here
In the market for an 8 .. also just getting tailwheel endorsement .. have heard a few say "normally do wheel landings in the 8" .. "bounces on 3 point landings" .. would appreciate your comments .. any reason to prefer wheel landing over 3 point?

Thanks .. answers will affect my tailwheel training syllabus/length ..

I'm pretty comfortable with 3 point, but wheel landings are like walking & chewing gum at the same time :)
 
Hokie

I just got an RV -8. I had a little tailwheel time from 30 years ago. Was grandfathered and didn’t need an endorsement. But being prudent, since I hadn’t flown a tailwheel for the last 30 years I went to
Find a place to get some RV 8 Dual time before I bought one. Went to see Bruce B down in Angleton Tx. He teaches 3 point right from the start. After 3 hours of Dual I was wondering if a Nose gear was in my future. Bruce said that I’d get it but it would take a few more hours of Dual. When I found my 8 to buy, part of the negotiations was 10 hours of Dual (it had controls in backseat). This instructor also taught 3 pointers. Both Instructors said if you can master the 3 point, you can handle anything. Both these guys said 3 pointers were better in heavy crosswinds. Not that you can’t do a wheel landing in a crosswind, but both their thinking was when you do a “proper” 3 point, the aircraft has quit flying when you touch down. This limits heavy drift and the rudder dance down the runway.
That made sense to me. Realize that I’m a rookie in the 8 and I’m taking what 2 instructors both told me. I can grease it doing a wheel landing, but I’m still trying hard to master a smooth no bounce 3 pointer. I am still Gradually working up to landing stiff x-winds. I want to be confident being able to land in a direct 15 knot before I take a trip and have to transit the gusty Midwest. Your story sounds similar to mine. I recommend going and getting 5-10 hours of Dual in an RV-8. You won’t be sorry. My previous Tail wheel time was in a Citabria and C-170. The 8 was a little trickier to land in my case. YMMV, Good luck in your search.
 
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RV8

There is a really good thread about this that I found really helpful. I would search for it. I like a tail low wheel landing but started out with 3 pointers.

Good luck!
 
You are the problem.

- From a USN 'Hoo. :D

I had a similar wall with wheel landings when I got my tailwheel qual. Then it 'clicked' and that was that.
 
Most RV8 pilots I fly with do wheel landings, as I usually did in the 800+ hours I had in the RV8, and always when flying formation. The reason may have to do with the stiffer main landing gear on the -8, I don?t know, but I can say, with 600+ hours in RV6 and RV4 with the Whitman tapered rod gear, 3 pointers are a little easier with these type airplanes, for me anyway. This my have to do with the tail wheel steering mechanism used. My RV8?s had the single JD Air, or FlyBoys steering link, and these are much more ?precise ? when taxiing on the ground, but when you are landing with a little crosswind, whatever rudder input you have to counteract the crosswind, no matter how small, will result in a commensurate amount of tailwheel deflection when the tailwheel touches down. Until the side load on the tailwheel is enough to counteract the centering pin in the tail wheel mechanism, there will be a side load induced deflection in your direction of flight (on the ground). This will require some dancing on your feet in a 3-point landing until you have compressed that centering pin in the steering mechanism that you have installed and allowed the tail wheel to fair with your direction of ?flight?. I have springs on my RV4 and they allow some rudder deflection before tailwheel deflection, and this has made crosswind 3-pointers much easier and more forgiving - for me anyway.
 
Hokie

I just got an RV -8. I had a little tailwheel time from 30 years ago. Was grandfathered and didn?t need an endorsement. But being prudent, since I hadn?t flown a tailwheel for the last 30 years I went to
Find a place to get some RV 8 Dual time before I bought one. Went to see Bruce B down in Angleton Tx. He teaches 3 point right from the start. After 3 hours of Dual I was wondering if a Nose gear was in my future. Bruce said that I?d get it but it would take a few more hours of Dual. When I found my 8 to buy, part of the negotiations was 10 hours of Dual (it had controls in backseat). This instructor also taught 3 pointers. Both Instructors said if you can master the 3 point, you can handle anything. Both these guys said 3 pointers were better in heavy crosswinds. Not that you can?t do a wheel landing in a crosswind, but both their thinking was when you do a ?proper? 3 point, the aircraft has quit flying when you touch down. This limits heavy drift and the rudder dance down the runway.
That made sense to me. Realize that I?m a rookie in the 8 and I?m taking what 2 instructors both told me. I can grease it doing a wheel landing, but I?m still trying hard to master a smooth no bounce 3 pointer.

I learned tailwheel from an old Navy instructor, in a Citabria. He taught 3-pointers like it was a religion, and I joined that religion. All good reasons, GENERALLY, for 3-pointers.

Then I built my RV-8. I strive for a tail-low wheel landing, but if I roll it on a little fast for a level wheel landing, I am still happy.

Here is how I would characterize the "the -8 doesn't like to 3-point" feelings.

I can hold 3-pt attitude and grease it right on. Then, what it feels like is it is still flying, but with the wheels on the ground (barely). It is not finished flying, so it feels really light and skittish on the roll. Can't brake much because no weight on the wheels. It doesn't feel like you even have much resistance to side drift, because the wheels are just barely skating on the ground.

I also agree with Scott's observation that with a "rocket link" or with very tight chains, whatever rudder you have in for the slip to touch down will suddenly steer you off when you touch.

With a tail-low wheel landing, you have bled some of the energy (one of the tenants of the 3-pt religion is the lower energy landing), but you still have good visibility, good weight on wheels for braking, good aerodynamic control with the rudder (one of the tenants of the wheel landing religion) And you can hold the tail off until you are quite slow. i heard an interview with a warbird pilot talking about tail-low wheel landings -- he described it as trying to land on the back side of the wheels. That helped me somehow to judge height better -- most of the time ;)
 
BTW - Steve?s description above is, in my opinion (and over 2,000 hours of RV-8 time) just about perfect. In three-point attitude, the -8 is not done flying!

Paul

+1 Mine stalls in a an attitude that is just too high to 3 point. Wheel land it and save some mileage on your tailwheel.
 
On the ground, the -8 appears to sit at about 12 degrees which is below the stalling angle of attack. Which means that you really have to be a dab hand to plant all three wheels on the ground at once: you're still above the stall.

I would be aiming for a tail-low touchdown: if I did so with the T/W a few inches off the ground, aim achieved. If I managed to put all three wheels on the ground simultaneously, bonus!
 
On the ground, the -8 appears to sit at about 12 degrees which is below the stalling angle of attack.

This is not exclusive to the RV-8. All of the tail dragger RV's have a 3 point angle of attack that is less than stall AOA.

I learned from Mike Seagar.... taught to work for 3 point all the time but take tail low wheel landing if that is what I get.

No one ever told me it didn't work for the 8 so I have always flown it the same way :confused:
 
Prefer wheel landings.

I just started flying my RV8 in December after 8 years of building. I had quite a bit of time in Bellanca?s and some T6 time, where For me, the norm was wheel landings.

Transitioning to the 8, I just feel I have more control with the wheel landings. I?ve got over 90 hours now on it and feel pretty confident with the wheel landings.

I have 3 pointed it numerous times, but really prefer the wheel landings. My 2 cents.

Don
 
I just started flying my RV8 in December after 8 years of building. I had quite a bit of time in Bellanca?s and some T6 time, where For me, the norm was wheel landings.

Transitioning to the 8, I just feel I have more control with the wheel landings. I?ve got over 90 hours now on it and feel pretty confident with the wheel landings.

I have 3 pointed it numerous times, but really prefer the wheel landings. My 2 cents.

Don

Same here, I prefer tail low wheel landings, achieves good control especially in X-winds and I can see more over the hood -) I also like to protect my tail assembly from a 'thud' -)
 
I love the 8! It's a wonderful airplane to fly and superbly fun to land. I'm a noob compared to the experts here in the 8, but as a noob, I will share some lessons I've learned over the past 7 months in my RV-8 that might be helpful for what you are looking to learn about.

1) Get great quality RV-8 transition training. I highly recommend at least two days of flying / at least 3 hours of stick time with Bruce Bohannon in Angleton TX (South Houston) in his dual control RV-8.

2) Bruce will advocate for, and teach, 3 point landings to begin with. He'll recommend wheel landings for gusty days when wheel landings will have advantage. You'll train in and master both. If you get his verbal assurance you are "ready" to solo an RV-8, you'll know how to land the 8 in a three-point attitude and a wheel landing attitude... and it WILL have clicked for you.

3) I recommend booking Bruce earlier than you think you'll need him. Then when you are in the purchase process, maybe book a refresher if it's been more than a few months (or even if it has not been more than a few months). It's money extremely well spent.

4) I have my favorite types of landings and flap settings for weather and weights - and to be honest, it's not helpful in this format to say what those are. Go back to items 1-3 on technique (what you learn in the aircraft).

5) When you start flying your RV-8, you'll absolutely LOVE it. And, be aware that each RV-8 is a "custom" aircraft and there will be subtle differences in each in so far as subtleties go. Everyone has an opinion on how to land. They are probably mostly all right (in their aircraft), in the CG /weight / density altitude they are most used to and comfortable flying in. Some 8's will burble and shake in the 3 point attitude just before touch down, while some will be baby smooth and will 3 point or wheel land with zero drama. I think easier 3 point landings are a combo of CG, weight and flap setting. When you get used to the ways and means of your particular 8 you'll be able to do either a 3 point or a wheel landing nearly as well - and find both techniques will have their days where one tool or the other works best for that day. Bruce calls the "burble" that some 8's demonstrate close to a 3 point landing attitude just above the runway "the 8 monster" - and, says the growl is worse than the bite if one is consistent in techniques. My RV-8 does not do this "burble" thing but Bruce's does. Some of this is said to be due to the gear root fairings, prop, cowl, and a combination of anything else. Don't get too wrapped around this sort of thing - just fly the plane the way it needs to be flown... with consistency. Consistently helps ensure safety.

6) I will say a trap some may flirt with is getting checked out and then slowly getting over confident and forgetting what was learned in transition training. This "might" apply to guys like me, high performance fast and large jet guys who mostly fly that type of plane and the 8 less often. The RV-8 flies so marvelously well that she'll tell you that you are great every time you fly her. But... I'm trying not to lose that disciplined consistency as time goes by, between the checkout and the next adventure. It's a very simple plane to fly, but if we are flying that high performance jet more often than the 8, it can be easy to forget this is a very light weight plane that does not mate well to fast jet handling on or near the runway. When it all comes down to it, it's all about going from 80 knots to zero knots, prop stopped, without anything weird happening. When (not if) anything weird happens, it's not really time to analyze it in the first 100 hours of RV-8 time during a "save". I just say it's just time to go around and play it safe. Problem solved before it's a problem.

7) Knowing when and how to go around effectively, and do it right the next time without letting other types of flying slip into the bag of RV-8 tricks, is what it's all about in the #6 above situation. She's delightfully easy to fly unless you try to fly her like something else that she's not, when you get to the runway environment. My first 25 hours of RV-8 time featured over 100 landings and I consider myself still on "high minimums" when it comes to gusty winds, weather or fatigue. My first year or 100 hours, whatever comes last, is a time where I'm still deliberately cautious. There is a question in my mind about perhaps booking a refresher flight with Bruce every couple years. If not possible, perhaps flying with a high experience RV pilot every couple years to keep me honest.

All this above to say in effect: This is a great plane to fly! She's a true delight. There are plenty of ways to get checked out too. I try to keep myself honest and remember the 8 is a wonderful plane that's easy to fly but she's different than my "day job" airplane. That's why I probably place more emphasis on this part than most would need to worry about. She's a blast, I highly recommend the type to anyone :)
 
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Landing

I liked that last reply very much. I would add that after sixty years of flying in various regimes with various aircraft, that there is NO right or wrong way to land the 8. The right way is what you are most comfortable with, and can repeat consistently. By choice I normally three point anything with a tailwheel, however if it seems more prudent on an occasion to wheel it on then by all means do it. I really dislike these dogmatic ?experts?.

The one comment that I will make though, is that after a full stall three po8nt landing, the aircraft will not bounce, no aircraft will. I can almost feel the objections. The reason that an aircraft will not bounce, is that the gear legs just cannot store the amount of energy to launch a 1600 or so pound aircraft back into the air. Just watch some of those test drops from ten feet or so. Those aircraft do not bounce to any degree. What does happen is that after touching down with excess speed, the aircraft may ?balloon?. The answer is to try to delay the aircraft from landing. As someone said very nicely, try to land on the ?back? of the wheels.

Someone mentioned using brakes during the landing roll. I prefer using the brakes only for taxiing in a tailwheel aircraft, but that is just me, I know that the STOL folks use relatively heavy braking, but they are very good at what they do.
 
Put a Passenger in the Back Seat

I'm not going to give any advice. I get a big smile on 3 pointers with a passenger in the plane, the rearward CG just causes mine to rotate/squat OH so nice.
 
I'm not going to give any advice. I get a big smile on 3 pointers with a passenger in the plane, the rearward CG just causes mine to rotate/squat OH so nice.

Unfortunately, a lot of RV-8 pilots never test the aft CG position until they put a passenger back there, and then discover that if you get slow on approach, the pitch forces can get VERY light (or even verse), and they go BANG on the tailwheel, wondering what the heck just happened.

One good reason actually test the full envelope before you take passengers....

Paul
 
Unfortunately, a lot of RV-8 pilots never test the aft CG position until they put a passenger back there, and then discover that if you get slow on approach, the pitch forces can get VERY light (or even verse), and they go BANG on the tailwheel, wondering what the heck just happened.

One good reason actually test the full envelope before you take passengers....

Paul

Word! I tested to within a half inch of aft CG at max gross during phase 1 and know for a fact that with my airplane, stick force reversal is real! Keep a good grip on the stick and expect it and it isn?t a problem. In the following 600 plus hours and flying many many passengers I?ve never been loaded that far aft since; even with a 280 pounder back there.
 
Word! I tested to within a half inch of aft CG at max gross during phase 1 and know for a fact that with my airplane, stick force reversal is real! Keep a good grip on the stick and expect it and it isn?t a problem. In the following 600 plus hours and flying many many passengers I?ve never been loaded that far aft since; even with a 280 pounder back there.

Stick force reversal is an indication of potential longitudinal instability. I would be reluctant to stall the plane at altitude with such an aft CG and gross weight unless I had a parachute and was prepared to bail out. Much less spin it.

A friend of mine was the test pilot for the Velocity aircraft. Found himself in an unrecoverable deep stall and pancaked it into the Atlantic from 6000 ft.

Curious as to what the resident professional test pilots thoughts are about this.
 
Stick force reversal is an indication of potential longitudinal instability. I would be reluctant to stall the plane at altitude with such an aft CG and gross weight unless I had a parachute and was prepared to bail out. Much less spin it.

Curious as to what the resident professional test pilots thoughts are about this.

This is why I don?t do aerobatics in my -8 at aft CG or at anything over aerobatic gross ..... which means I don?t do acro with passengers.

Paul
 
Stick Force Gradient Reversal

Stick force reversal is an indication of potential longitudinal instability. I would be reluctant to stall the plane at altitude with such an aft CG and gross weight unless I had a parachute and was prepared to bail out. Much less spin it.

A friend of mine was the test pilot for the Velocity aircraft. Found himself in an unrecoverable deep stall and pancaked it into the Atlantic from 6000 ft.

Curious as to what the resident professional test pilots thoughts are about this.

Stall recovery in this configuration on my plane at gross weight is just fine. You do have to ease the back pressure noticeably to hold pitch attitude as you approach stall speed but the nose will still drop at stall and/or forward stick. I wouldn't want to spin it that way, though.

Skylor
 
Stick force reversal is an indication of potential longitudinal instability. I would be reluctant to stall the plane at altitude with such an aft CG and gross weight unless I had a parachute and was prepared to bail out. Much less spin it.

A friend of mine was the test pilot for the Velocity aircraft. Found himself in an unrecoverable deep stall and pancaked it into the Atlantic from 6000 ft.

Curious as to what the resident professional test pilots thoughts are about this.


If he is in the envelope he is in the envelope. Flying to the edge is still.in the envelope. There is margin beyond the edge. Even beyond is ok if you respect the airplane and don't do anything drastic. That is usually how the envelope is made. It should be safe to fly in the envelope. Stick lightening is not reversal, but is an indication of it coming (yep due less stability in pitch). Even with neutral or negative stability it is possible to fly; I wouldn't do it without some serious build up without some control laws helping me out. All that being said, I typically put about 60lbs in the back seat of my 8 when I have no passenger. It feels better on rollout for me. Also as you reduce positive stability you should be able to obtain a higher cruise speed and burn less gas (less down force requires by the tail). I prefer the lighter forces, and the better rollout characteristics of a more aft cg in my plane. Not saying to to aerobatics there or anything abrupt.

I aim to always 3 point (unless there is a very gusty 20+ head wind), also taught by Bruce. For me he was the best money I spent on my airplane, I wrote a thread about him in here somewhere. Three points you can't really bounce like was said, but more importantly on roll out if your tail is on the ground your wheel has orders of magnitude more friction on a hard surface than it does off the ground. A gust from a crosswind is less likely to result in a ground loop, or at least I have a better chance of fighting it as the rudder looses control effectiveness.
 
This is why I don’t do aerobatics in my -8 at aft CG or at anything over aerobatic gross ..... which means I don’t do acro with passengers.

Paul

You're a wise man, Paul.

Sounds like the allowable max aft CG location might possibly be located too far aft.

When my friend experienced the deep stall in the Velocity, he actually climbed out onto the wing to manually manipulate the canard, but it did not improve the situation as the forward airspeed was too low for the canard to be effective.
 
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Reminder plot showing the Aerobatic and Utility Category Limits for RV-8/-8A with the "Dash One" wing (RV-8/-8A with the non-"Dash One" wing have an Aerobatic GW=1550 pounds).

Note the different Aft CG limits for Aerobatic and the Utility Category operation.

i-cZpWzcN-L.png

The Utility Category aft CG line at circa 86.75" looks like the commonly "published" location in the various RV-8 POH's I've seen.

Veetail88's comment suggests stick force reversal perhaps 1/2" forward of that line at max gross. I'm thinking the Utility Category aft CG line may need to be moved forward to provide a margin of safety from the point at which stick reversal occurs.

I apologize for the semi-hijack, but it seems to be a relevant consideration.
 
My weight and balance indicates max 225 lbs in the backseat of my Catto equipped RV8. But my personal limit is 210 lbs in the back. The stick pressure reversal at 210 lbs is the most I want to deal with
 
Sounds like the allowable max aft CG location might possibly be located too far aft.

Think I?ll just stick with the expertise, flight testing and safety standards provided by the very knowledgeable team at Vans, but we all have to establish parameters we are personally comfortable with.
 
My weight and balance indicates max 225 lbs in the backseat of my Catto equipped RV8. But my personal limit is 210 lbs in the back. The stick pressure reversal at 210 lbs is the most I want to deal with

I've not had that much weight in the back seat of my RV-8. It's very helpful to know about this. I will be sure to adopt a conservative approach to establishing my "working" aft CG limit.
 
Getting back to the original question:

I always wheel it on - with or without pax.

On my -8, I found that I can get a foot or two off the runway, nice and stable, but if I don't add just a little bit of power, I can feel the bottom drop out and I fall that one or two feet. Naturally it bounces

So I add a touch of power just to get the prop wash over the wings.

Lately I've been trying the technique of, once stabilized with the extra touch of power, slooooooooowly easing off that extra power. Then a bit of forward stick when it touches.
 
That’s a pretty common technique in other planes too Saville, good description. I think of the “forward stick as mains roll on” as a “relaxation of back pressure to raise the tail a tad bit” in my experience. But it’s the same thing, just perspective based. I think people’s experience will also depend a lot on the prop they have (CS or fixed) in terms of manipulating a zero thrust, low drag condition in the flare prior to wheels on. For me I do a lot of 3 pointers when conditions allow (zero power in the flare on those 3 pointers and back stick until the 3 point touch... keep working that flare and back stick...) I think the lightbulb moment in an 8 can come quite quickly with training in the actual aircraft by an expert transition trainer. Money very well spent.
 
Eddie P:

Yeah I had the same problem with that 1 foot off the runway drop when I trained on Super Decathlons. So I know it's not a -8 thing.

I'm still working on refining the smoothness of touchdown after that last foot or two.

What about short field landings? How do people configure and land on short fields? What approach speeds?
 
Short field, full flaps 70ish short final, get down low, clear the fence at 65 knots slowing chop the power and land.
 
Before we get yet another thread with over a hundred posts, how about we refer to the last one:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=16788

Paul

That worked well, Paul. LOL!

You should know by now that it's no fun to go read another thread, and any effort to herd people to it is doomed to failure. ;-)

I happen to have fallen into the wheel-landing camp in my 300 hours of RV-8 flying. Never had a mishap (thankfully!), but the times I tried to wheel land the plane left me … uncomfortable. No thanks.
 
Hi all, I'm about 30 hours into Phase 1 with my RV-8 fixed pitch. I'd like to hear suggestions / advice on shortening up the landing roll. With full flaps and crossing the first brick at just under 70 kt, I usually float maybe 6 or 700 ft, wheel land, and very carefully adding some brake before the tail comes all the way down, then braking moderately. End up eating at least 2000' of runway. Should be able to do better than that.
 
Hi all, I'm about 30 hours into Phase 1 with my RV-8 fixed pitch. I'd like to hear suggestions / advice on shortening up the landing roll. With full flaps and crossing the first brick at just under 70 kt, I usually float maybe 6 or 700 ft, wheel land, and very carefully adding some brake before the tail comes all the way down, then braking moderately. End up eating at least 2000' of runway. Should be able to do better than that.

Usually a float like you’re describing is due to extra airspeed on short final and in the flare. In a calm/light wind situation 1.3xs stall speed might be a better target. In a full flap configuration my RV-8 stalls around 45 KIAS. 1.3xs that brings me to 59...I’ll round that to 60 KIAS. When touch down point is critical, that’s what I look to cross the fence with. I’ll carry more in the final turn and rolling out on final.

Figure out what your dirty stall speed is, and if it makes sense try reducing your speed on short final by a few knots. My guess is that will reduce your tendency to float the landing.
 
Go See Bruce

Another recommendation here for Bruce. Went and flew his -8 for a couple hours before taking off in my old -3 and its money well spent.
 
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