RV-4 Approach Speeds and POH

I recently bought an RV-4, and would like to get some feedback on approach speeds. The airplane has a 160 hp fuel injected engine, and a fixed pitch 79 Sensenich prop set for cruise. It weighs 986 pounds empty. It does not like to slow down or come down!

In the pattern I have been flying 100 mph on initial approach and downwind, slowing to 90 on base, and then on down to about 80 mph with full flaps on final. It feels solid at that speed, but I wonder if I'm approaching too fast, particularly when solo and with half tanks.

Also, if anyone has a POH that they could share for a 4 similarly equipped to mine, that would be most appreciated. I'm trying to put one together now.

Thanks,

Practice slowing it down a bit. 75 MPH works well for short final and it makes for plenty of stability in the flare. You can stop with just a touch of brakes in 1800' or so from the end of the runway.

I also practice dragging it in all the way down at 65 MPH. At that speed you use power until you are ready to touch down and it touchs as soon as power is reduced. I can turn off in 500 feet with that speed but there is very little margin of error.

I use 80 MPH with a passenger, 75 solo and less just for fun in smooth air.

Keep in mind that these are not production aircraft, where each one of a model is assumed to exactly like each other one. Errors in the airspeed system may vary quite a bit from one RV to the next, so IAS values that work for one pilot in one aircraft may be all wrong for another pilot in another aircraft.

Go up on a very smooth day, with no turbulence, and see exactly what the IAS is at the stall with landing flap and idle power. Then try simulated approaches at altitude at ever so slower speeds, with a simulated landing flare at the bottom of each one. Then, try it for real, with approaches to the runway, decreasing the speed a knot or two on each approach. Pay very close attention to how the aircraft responds in the landing flare. You will eventually find that at some particular approach speed the flare is getting pretty dicey. Add a few knots for a buffer (to allow for safety with the airspeed variations you see in typical wind conditions) and call this speed your absolute minimum approach speed. I suggest your minimum approach speed should be at least 5 kt greater than the speed you demonstrate on that perfectly smooth day.

If you have a different technique for short field landings (maybe you add power during the flare instead of pulling to idle), then do it all over again with this technique to define your minimum short field approach speed.

The minimum approach speeds you find are valid at whatever your test weight was. If you increase the weight, you'll need to bump the minimum approach speeds up too. A 10% weight increase would require a 5% increase in speed to keep the same margin to the stall.

RV-4 speeds

Fernando,
I have a -4 with a 160hp, wood Sterba prop, weigh about the same as yours. I also fly DW at 100, usually do a blended base/final reducing to 70 on short final if solo, hold 80 if I have a pax. I agree with Sids #s also, and you can really get slow with power, but nose will be high and sink rate must be watched at those conditions when power is reduced. I often practice (at altitude) descending turns at 60-70 mph with flaps 1/2 and full as would be done in the pattern. RV's do very well as long as the ball is centered. Its also good to practice slips...it will help you slow since no C/S prop. Keep practicing !

Bill E
N76WE/RV-4
Advance NC

Landing a -4 is easy, landing it well takes practice. Mine floats like crazy at anything above 70 mph on short final (solo). It takes getting used to to slow it down that much and even with the flaps it just seems to hang in the air.y
But practice makes perfect.

Key for me is getting it in my head that I really needed to slow it down. Of course I had the most trouble after flying a T-6 that has no problem coming down like a brick when you get under 90 on final.

Go to altitude and figure out what IAS works for your plane and then do a dozen loops around the pattern.

approach speed

Old timers taught me to find the stall speed clean and then add 15 percent for the approach speed. My 4 stalls at 54kts I use 70kts on final and may slow to 65 over the fence but no slower. A skilled pilot can fly slower of course.

The speed you fly may depend on what kind of landing you plan to make.

You should know what your airplane handles like at low speeds and you will be able to feel if you are at the correct speed. The RV's are honest flyers but inept or inattentive pilots can and do spin in on the base to final turn.

Chris M

Christopher Murphy said:

Old timers taught me to find the stall speed clean and then add 15 percent for the approach speed. My 4 stalls at 54kts I use 70kts on final and may slow to 65 over the fence but no slower.

Click to expand...

I think you meant to write 30%.

I just started flying my 4 in June and I use a turning power off approach and trim for 70 mph on base and final and slip all the way to ground effect it makes for a nice tight pattern, I'm very new to this though I took me a while to figure out what worked for me. It's all fun though. 160hp catto 3 blade

Thanks - and POH?

Thanks to everyone who responded. I have been focused on staying in the pattern to practice landings, but I need to get up to altitude and experiment with speeds. I suspect I can in fact slow down from 80 mph. I just need to find out by how much.

Now, does anyone have a POH they can share for a 4 with a similar configuration to mine?

Thanks again.

I have the same configuration as you. It took me a while to figure it out but once I did, I started flying formation. We fly 87 knots on downwind, 78 knots on base and 70 knots on final. Then I bleed it down to 65 over the fence. If you are thinking about flying formation in the future you may want to try those numbers. They work well. Much higher than 65 knots and I float for ever.

Did not see the poh request. Go to the poh section of this site. There are a few RV-4.

As Axel has stated, there are plenty POH's completed already on this site.

Here are POH's for RV's, with three of them for the 4:

http://www.vansairforce.net/poh.htm

RV-4 POH

Thanks. I will take a look at those at VAF, but would still welcome any others, particularly in Word format.

Here's my speed

I have a 961 lb RV-4 w/ O-360 and Sensenich metal prop and the tall gear. All speeds are indicated in MPH, not knots.

I use 100 on downwind, 80 on base. Slow to 63 on final solo, 68 w/ a pax. I add 5 if doing a wheel landing. Anything faster and I just float longer than I want to. This is a non-standard 20% above stall speed margin (for my aircraft).

Rick
N999XS

approach speeds etc... RV4

wow - it's not a Harmon Rocket - even in the Harmon Rocket - an approach of about 85 - 90MPH is about right. the RV4 - has a stall speed of 48MPH with full flap - I believe that's at sea level - ideal conditions mind you. Here in Vernon there are only 2 RV4's - one that I own and one that a friend of mine with a heck of a lot more experience then me flys - he's also an instructor as well. He approaches much slower then I do mind you -he comes in at 65MPH, that said each plane's instruments - True Airspeed Indicator etc.. are slightly different and while that approach works for him I prefer about 75mph - maybe 80 max. the reason for this is simple if you approach faster you wil be likely to be landing way way down the runway - as you have noticed they continue on flying at these speeds and don't drop like other low wing planes - say a warrior or even a cherokee. I used to always have to punch on a little throttle on my cherokee so I did'nt hit to hard - since it had a fairly high sink rate. These don't - parly due to their wing design - notice the HUGE airfoil - not at all like say a glasiar airfoil. Also the slippery design with flush mounted rivets etc.. wheel fairings etc.. which all work together to reduce the drag - means it keeps going and going.

I trained with Mike Segar in Vernoria OR - in an RV7 Tail dragger before I started flying my RV4 - he taught me some great stuff and these things he teaches works with all types of RV aircraft - highly recommend dual training with him if you are anywhere near Vernonia OR it's dirt cheap too - only 45 per hour for the AC rental - he has both the 6a and the 7 TD - model so no matter if it's triaining for trike or tail wheel he's the man. 12000 hours of experience.

Here's what he taught me - in a quick nutshell;
1) - entering the circut on the downwind - reduce to idle and maintain circit hieght - allow the plane to slow to 120MPH on the downwind - maintian that with 1800RPM once you reach 120MPH.
2) on the X - wind - before final - reduce power again - slow to 100 MPH - maintain with 1200RPM - don't give up too much ALT yet .
3) ADD FLAPs to 50% or about 20 degrees on the X wind.
4) turning final - cut throttle to idle and apply full flap.- trim for about 75 MPH in your plane - maintain a glide path that will ENSURE you will make the numbers on the runway - so if you need to add power - add power - if you are a bit high slide slip to get back on the appropriate glide path - maintain 75MPH.
5) once you have reached the numbers over the tarmac - and at about 10- 15ish feet above the tarmac - LEVEL off. dont' fully round out - LEVEL OFF - and hold that - THROTTLE AT IDLE - very important.
6) Looking down the far end of the runway - not in front of the nose - or beside by the wheels etc... looking way down the runway - this is the trick he taught me and it believe it or not works like a dream - start adding back presure on the stick - once you start - continue to feed more and more - while watching the end of that runway or a point near the end.
7) It will come down nicely like this - usually no bounce- as long as your control inputs are smooth and solid - not jerky - and continue to maintain full back pressure - and stay off the brakes until it's slowed some and you know that tail's firmly on the ground. then add in brakes evenly- and maintain the AC down the middle centerline using diferentail braking and or rudder inputs as needed but with finese - what he likes to call Happy feet - it's being light but quick on the rudder controls. Mine has a locking tail wheel so it tracks nice and straight.

My first landing amazed me - not only was there no bounce but I barely felt the plane touch down.

Hope this helps - if you are still having some difficulties - again I would recommend Mike - he's a VANS's instructor and just an excellent resource.

You are correct, I meant 30%

luddite42 said:

I think you meant to write 30%.

Click to expand...

I did mean 30 percent... see you can't believe everything you read on the internet!

CM

Thanks!

Wanted to thank everyone for their input. I'm going to perform some testing tomorrow at altitude first to see what I find, and then go back to the pattern for landing practice.

Great Post

I got fly in a Soneri today - first bit of flying I did in years. I am a very low time pilot - did some Tiger Moth and Chippy back in the Mezozoic. I could still fly a bit. No mucking about and quite scary touching down so fast.

The chap I flew with was very good and he warned me my RV-4 will be wanting to be flown very soon and it might be a good idea not to let myself get going way green.

I have turned into an old fart who spends hours clanking about in my workshop wondering where I left the cleco pliers.

This sort of "reality check" self examination is so important.

All sorts of emotional baggage knowing good mates who got'em selves killed flying.

There was six months where I regarded a sports plane as an obscene object which killed a very dear friend. Couldn't even look at my RV-4. His brother told me my mate / flying instuctor whould never rest in peace if he thought his death would poison my love of flying. He was right of course but rational thought is only subset , a compartment of the totality of a man's outlook.

Didn't help that the Soneria came within a hair's breath of smacking into a couple of kangaroos after we were done and my mate was flying with his Dad - I fully expected them to come unglued.

What was so cool was that the Soneri pilot told me he had an irrational fear of freezing on the controls. Takes a brave man to be so honest. He said "If it did happen he didn't expect me to keep the plane intact on landing" . Just can we make it survivable? Not too much to ask methinks and I reckon I could have done it. The man was airforce trained and nothing wrong with his skill set at all. In fact his brutal asessment of his own abilities made me feel very comfortable to fly with him. Heros scare me.


Over the years I have had the oportunity to fly RVs and I was always ready to be overwhelmed by the work but before I knew it we were parked by the hanger and it never got exciting at all.

One day very soon it will be me "Giving the old girl a kick in the tail" and taking to the sky. So much has happened in my life since I first opened Pandora's / Van's box and I fully expect to be drenched with tears of joy when the wheels finally leave the ground. I will be needing good friends and sound judgement when that time comes and I know I cant go it alone.

This lack of introspection and Bravado that some pilots seem to carry smacks of a character flaw.

Just like the Old Bags at Delphi said "Know thyself"

Regards Mark

http://rv-4builder.blogspot.com/

Mark - I'll be there cheering you on when the wheels leave the ground! As you say, no one does this completely alone. The friends we make during our projects are often the best.

It takes a village to raise an RV

Shirley

Shirley/Mark,

I know this is a bit off thread but I'll be in your neck of the woods again in a few weeks. Working out of the NT but should be in Perth again finishing up the project later in October.

I have been flying my -4 for about a year now (bought flying). It has spoiled me for most of the other aircraft I've flown. I'm still working on getting my short field landings down. I'm comfortable getting in and out of 1000' runway now but there is still a lot of work to do. I use 65 knots with either a signficant x-wind or a passenger. If I have both I bump it up to 70kts. 57kts solo/calm wind. That looks pretty similar to what many have posted on here. Of course I went up and spent a fair amount of time in slow flight performing various maneuvers to really get a feel for my aircraft. The feel is what I rely on as I like to keep my focus outside the cockpit.

Welcome to Australia

@dkol

Delighted to hear you are passing by our nieghborhood. Give us a cherrio and we would welcome the pleasure of your company.

I am mostly out bush but venture into the metro once in a bit.

Kind Regards

Mark

A little fast...

Guys,

Excellent posts on RV4 approach speeds. Personally, I would recommend he climb to altitude and practice slow flight at clean speeds first. Test both clean and with flaps extended. I routinely flew final at 58 Knots IAS into my short (1400') grass strip with my 4 and 63 Knots in my HR2. This does produce a healthy sink rate on final, easily arrested with slight power addition in the flare. When RV friends came to visit I passed this gouge along as anything faster and you wouldn't be landing here anytime soon.

For normal operations in my former 170HP Fixed Pitch 4 and current 150 HP FP RVX I use 65 Knots indicated, bottom of green on my lift-reserve indicator. Short field landing approaches can be flown at 55 Knots IAS in most RV's with practice. Your mileage may vary.

Practice does make perfect.

Smokey

RV4 approach speeds

I was a bit surprised at the higher approach speeds of my -4 when I bought it as I am used to bringing my 182 over the fence at 50 to 55mph.
I worked very hard at short field technique in the 4, and realized to bring it in slow requires a uncomfortable nose high drag-in attitude with power, and the realization that if the engine quits in this configuration you are going to come down like a greased rock!
I finally settled on 75 to 80 on final, just as you have determined, and have found that the 4 does great spot wheel landings when you get used to it.

60mph

I guess I am about the slowest. I use 60mph if calm and and up to 65 if not. The ASI is pretty accurate according to the GPS. There are a couple of ccts here. I have little option on the speed, going into 1020'. It works well but I land tail low but not 3 point.

Please be very careful if this tempts you to land more slowly.

PS Two up is a whole different ballgame.