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RV12 Project - Cost To Complete

joe gremlin

Well Known Member
I took a peek at Craigslist and found an RV12 project for sale near me. Looks like the tail, wings and fuselage are complete or nearly so and it includes a low time rotax. The asking price is $20k. The ad doesn't have much info beyond that. No idea what model rotax, I assume a 912 of some sort but that's an assumption.

It'll need a finish kit, avionics, firewall forward less engine and paint or some kind of vinyl wrap to get it flying. What's a good guess for dirt cheap cost on all that?

A -9 is what I really want to build, but I'm wondering if getting a -12 built, flying and sold would be good practice before starting a -9 from scratch. Obviously I wouldn't want to do that unless I stood a reasonable chance of selling it for what I had in it if not a bit more.
 
One skill you probably won’t learn building a 12 that is absolutely critical to building a 9 is how to use a rivet gun. The 12 was designed to be built without using a rivet gun although I've used mine in a few places. I could have completed the tasks with a squeezer instead of the gun, but since I had the gun handy, I decided to use it.
 
Unless you buy a Rotax 912 ULS with Firewall Forward Kit from Van's, your plane will have to be registered EAB, which means you can't do the annuals or 100 hr services, must be performed by an A/P which you get to then pay $$$$. If you buy the motor from Van's, then you've built it just like a SLSA that they sell fully finished, it's just Experimental, and classifies with FAA as a E-LSA aircraft. Probably affects your insurance rates, too.
 
One skill you probably won?t learn building a 12 that is absolutely critical to building a 9 is how to use a rivet gun. The 12 was designed to be built without using a rivet gun
Regardless of design, it appears that the bulk of the riveting is already done. For sure there will be lots of skills to learn including the basics of riveting. But I wouldn't expect to come away with any kind of advanced riveting degree under my belt.
 
Unless you buy a Rotax 912 ULS with Firewall Forward Kit from Van's, your plane will have to be registered EAB, which means you can't do the annuals or 100 hr services, must be performed by an A/P which you get to then pay $$$$. If you buy the motor from Van's, then you've built it just like a SLSA that they sell fully finished, it's just Experimental, and classifies with FAA as a E-LSA aircraft. Probably affects your insurance rates, too.
Ummmmmmmmm... yes, and no.

If you use parts (like an engine, for example) that don't come from Van's, or if you deviate from the plans in any way, you'll have to register it as E-AB rather than E-LSA.

If you build it E-AB, as with E-LSA, you are certainly allowed do all of your own maintenance, repairs and modifications to your heart's content. So is anyone else, regardless of their certificate or lack thereof. You can also obtain the repairman certificate for that airplane, and perform your own condition inspections as well.

One difference between the two is that if you build it as an E-AB and subsequently sell the plane, the next owner will have to get an A&P to do the condition inspections. If you sell an E-LSA, the next owner can take the 16 hour class and get a repairman certificate for that airplane, which will allow him or her to perform the condition inspection.
 
So to clarify, even if the engine he has is a 912 ULS, if it didn't come from Vans the plane can't be registered as E-LSA, is that correct?

Assuming that's the case should I also assume the resale on an EAB RV12 is going to be less than the resale on an E-LSA RV12? If so, then I'd suspect $20k is bit too much to pay for a project you plan to sell as soon you get it flying.
 
Lot of assumptions made here... my advice :cool:...is that if you want to build a -9, then just do that. It’s a lot of work to build an airplane, even and RV12, and if you’re goal is learn building, Van’s did a good job of having you learn on the empennage first at a lower price, and then go on to build the rest of the kit. Even if you totally screw up the empennage, you could scrap it and start over building a completely new one having more practical skills for building a solid rivet aircraft with likely less investment of time and money overall than building a complete -12 first.

Also, I recurringly hear the insurance line about E-LSA will be less than E-AB. I’ve not owned an E-LSA, but my annual premium on my E-AB hull with $90K value was $610 with no deductible; feel free to measure your cost against that. The major factor on premiums is the pilot, not the airplane...so saith my insurance broker.
 
You can NOT register that RV-12 as E-LSA unless Van's Aircraft gives you form 8130-15. Van's will ask you to sign this statement:
_
"To receive the documentation required to license and fly an E-LSA aircraft, including FAA form 8130-15 Light Sport Aircraft Statement of Compliance, the following statement must be true and signed:
I certify that I have received a complete RV-12 E-LSA kit from Van?s Aircraft, Inc. No components have been deleted, returned or altered. The aircraft will be assembled in accordance with Van?s building instructions.
"
They will likely verify that statement is true based on their records. It is best to check with Van's before purchasing that RV-12.
_
If you intend to register as E-AB, you must prove that the aircraft was 51 percent built by an amateur. Can you do that? It is best to check with your local DAR before purchasing that RV-12.
_
Even though much of the work has already been done, you could still obtain the repairman certificate if registered E-AB. Ask your local FAA.
 
If you intend to register as E-AB, you must prove that the aircraft was 51 percent built by an amateur. Can you do that?
The ad says he has all records of build. Looks like the same guy is also selling a flying -9. I'm guessing he built that as well.
 
my advice :cool:...is that if you want to build a -9, then just do that.
Good advice no doubt. My thought with this stems from a comment my wife made right after I took a demo flight at Vans last year.

She said 'I know you. You're not going to build an airplane. You're going to build two. You build everything twice. The first one always turns out great, but not as good as you thought it should be, so you take it apart or sell it or throw it out and then you build a second one that you like better.'

The thing is, she's right. I tend to never be satisfied with the projects I learned to build as I was building them.

I'm all for just buying a tail kit and starting. Pretty active EAA chapter here so I'm sure I'd have access to lots of advice and guidance. But starting with an unfinished project that we intend to get flying and sell just to get the experience of finishing a project before doing the 'forever' plane is something we've talked about.
 
My first thought: if the builder has procured a used 912 for this project then his plan was to go EAB and not necessarily follow the plans. Then what other modifications have been made as the work on the completed sections has been done?
 
Good advice no doubt. My thought with this stems from a comment my wife made right after I took a demo flight at Vans last year.

She said 'I know you. You're not going to build an airplane. You're going to build two. You build everything twice. The first one always turns out great, but not as good as you thought it should be, so you take it apart or sell it or throw it out and then you build a second one that you like better.'

The thing is, she's right. I tend to never be satisfied with the projects I learned to build as I was building them.

I'm all for just buying a tail kit and starting. Pretty active EAA chapter here so I'm sure I'd have access to lots of advice and guidance. But starting with an unfinished project that we intend to get flying and sell just to get the experience of finishing a project before doing the 'forever' plane is something we've talked about.

I’m with you on this Joe. My wife just hugs me and says “it’s ok sweetheart, I understand”, like I have a disease or something ;) . I’m currently building my fourth airplane, an RV10 and I’m wildly thinking this will be my last. There’s an old adage that says to “buy your last airplane first”, but the problem with that, and building airplanes, is that the journey always provides new experiences and new perspectives on what your last airplane will be. I could have saved a fortune skipping the several certified airplanes I’ve owned and many thousands of hours building the last three airplanes and going straight to the -10, but then I would have missed out on all of the memories made, joy of accomplishment and learning that came of it as well.

I definitely would not be dissuaded by having to go the E-AB route with an RV12 (a bit of rhetorical statement at this point for me), as the point should be to learn and have recreation, not concerns over the mythical resale value.

To the OP: I fly my RV12 almost every day and thoroughly enjoy it, but if you think you want an RV-9, then forget about the 12 and just get going on a -9. It’s unlikely that you’ll make money on the deal and life’s way too short.
 
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I've looked at a couple RV-12's partially built, asking prices 24.5k to 25k. They still need avionics, $14,850, ADS-B 2020 antenna $600, $30000 for engine and FWF kit, DAR inspection, probably $650 to 800. Plus trailer, driving, getting it down here, are you going to build in your garage or rent a hangar to build it in?

I see lots of earlier RV-12's for sale with the Dynan D-180's in them, still for sale. New EFIS glass, wiring and installation will set you back how much more?
 
I knew this was a bad idea when I thought of it. And yet I'm still thinking about it.

Still think I'd want to complete it as an LSA if possible. Assuming what's been completed so far is compliant, that would mean selling the included motor and then just getting the full engine kit from Vans. More expensive but we'd end up with a factory new zero time airplane.

Still seems like a bad idea but I might go look at it this weekend. I gotta stay off Craigslist.
 
I knew this was a bad idea when I thought of it. And yet I'm still thinking about it.

Still think I'd want to complete it as an LSA if possible. Assuming what's been completed so far is compliant, that would mean selling the included motor and then just getting the full engine kit from Vans. More expensive but we'd end up with a factory new zero time airplane.

Still seems like a bad idea but I might go look at it this weekend. I gotta stay off Craigslist.

In case you aren't aware, a kit built RV-12 doesn't have to be certified as an E-LSA to be flow by a Sport Pilot. If it is an experimental amateur built, it just needs to meet all of the requirements of an LSA. So as long as it is not built in such a way that would put it outside of those requirements (with a constant speed prop for example) it can still be flow by a Sport Pilot.
 
In case you aren't aware, a kit built RV-12 doesn't have to be certified as an E-LSA to be flow by a Sport Pilot. If it is an experimental amateur built, it just needs to meet all of the requirements of an LSA. So as long as it is not built in such a way that would put it outside of those requirements (with a constant speed prop for example) it can still be flow by a Sport Pilot.

Good to know. So the only difference then would be whether or not a future owner would need an A&P to do the condition inspection?
 
Good to know. So the only difference then would be whether or not a future owner would need an A&P to do the condition inspection?

Yes, but maybe even whether the new owner that completes the build could.


Eligibility for the repairman's certificate for an experimental amateur built is at the discretion of the person issuing it. They need to be convinced that the applicant constructed enough of the aircraft to be sufficiently familiar with it to do a proper condition inspection.

Note, this is an entirely separate issue from whether a particular airplane is eligible for an experimental amateur built certificate. In that context, the major portion has to have been built by amateurs for their own education and recreation. It can have been 10 different owner/builders over the course of the project, but it would still be eligible for the certificate. The final builder may not be eligible for the repairmans certificate though, because most of the construction was done by the nine previous owners.


In the case of this airplane you have described, I don't know enough details to offer an opinion but it doesn't really matter since it is the opinion of the person issuing the certificate that counts.

This is why there is another benefit to E-LSA. There is no requirement that amateurs build it. It fact it is perfectly legal to purchase a kit and then hire a professional to build one for you (though having Van's build you an S-LSA version would likely make more sense). Or if you purchase a partially built one that was being built with the intent to certify as E-LSA, it doesn't matter who did the work, or how much they did, you will still have a clear path to E-LSA certification and getting the light sport repairman inspector certificate.
 
I took a peek at Craigslist and found an RV12 project for sale near me. Looks like the tail, wings and fuselage are complete or nearly so and it includes a low time rotax. The asking price is $20k. The ad doesn't have much info beyond that. No idea what model rotax, I assume a 912 of some sort but that's an assumption.

It'll need a finish kit, avionics, firewall forward less engine and paint or some kind of vinyl wrap to get it flying. What's a good guess for dirt cheap cost on all that?

A -9 is what I really want to build, but I'm wondering if getting a -12 built, flying and sold would be good practice before starting a -9 from scratch. Obviously I wouldn't want to do that unless I stood a reasonable chance of selling it for what I had in it if not a bit more.

If you have an abundance of time, build the RV-12, then the 9. I don't really see value of labor added being reflected too much in selling prices. As in it's probably a labor of love. In looking at used RV-12's for sale since Oct of 2017, there's planes built by AP's, or what look like professional builders, that, due to price, are not moving very fast. I've seen a few 3 and 4 year old low hour 40 to 120 hrs, loaded with 10" skyview touch, paint, 2 axis auto pilot, where the builder, most who I've conversed with, want to get out of the plane what they paid for it. ELSA stuff at $80 to $90.000. I saw a few of the first RV-12 IS planes completed, for sale at close to 100k asking price. The RV-12 IS planes seemed to sell rather quickly in December and January.
 
I saw a few of the first RV-12 IS planes completed, for sale at close to 100k asking price. The RV-12 IS planes seemed to sell rather quickly in December and January.

?????

There is currently only 5 RV-12iS airplanes in existence. 4 are S-LSA's and one is E-AB (One Week Wonder owned by EAA)

Two of the S-LSA's are owned by Van's Aircraft. The third was delivered to its new owner in Dec. 2019 and the forth delivered in February. They love the airplanes so I doubt they have talked with anyone about selling it.....
 
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?????

There is currently only 5 RV-12iS airplanes in existence. 4 are S-LSA's and one is E-AB (One Week Wonder owned by EAA)

Two of the S-LSA's are owned by Van's Aircraft. The third was delivered to its new owner in Dec. 2019 and the forth delivered in February. They love the airplanes so I doubt they have talked with anyone about selling it.....

Owner was down in or near Tucson, AZ, for sale $97,500, in January, claimed it was the first finished RV12-IS, the new owner got to choose choice of color of paint. I believe I saw it advertised in Dec in Barnstormers, owner, I believe had a last name that looked to be from India, or ?. There was also supposedly another RV-12 IS for sale, finished, for $99,950, somewhere in Florida. I saw both ads on Barnstormers. Whether or not they were real or scams, I can not say, but I did see them as RV-12IS, close to being completed or completed, for sale, at those price points, around December 2018 and January 2019. Both ads didn't stay up for long, at most 2 to 4 weeks.

I'd be fine with a E-LSA still in the raw, aluminum, and fiberglass, no paint, finished with up to 200 hours on it, 2013 or later with Dynon D1000 glass. Still looking.

Least expensive I saw was an unpainted RV-12 E-AB, maybe 40 to 50 hours on it, no wheel pants, in Eldorado Hills, CA, no S mode, no ADS-B, full Dynon D1000 Touch package, owned by a Francis Storm III. It never showed up on Flight Tracker as in the air? He was asking 58 or 59k for it, for about 3 months, before it sold, in January, 2019. N86FS

I've seen the same planes, 2012 or earlier completion RV-12's with the old style dashboard, fuse panel on the left, instead of in the center, with Dynon 180's, for sale since I first started looking middle of October 2017, probably 4 or 5 of them. A few were with non Rotax motors, Viking 110's.
 
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?????

There is currently only 5 RV-12iS airplanes in existence. 4 are S-LSA's and one is E-AB (One Week Wonder owned by EAA)

Two of the S-LSA's are owned by Van's Aircraft. The third was delivered to its new owner in Dec. 2019 and the forth delivered in February. They love the airplanes so I doubt they have talked with anyone about selling it.....

Here's another future example for sale:

2019 VANS RV-12
Light Sport Aircraft
Tango Flight is pleased to present one of the first VANS RV-12iS with the fuel injected engine available for sale. This aircraft will be completed in June 2019 and is available for purchase immediately. It will be delivered with new paint (to new owner's specifications) and all flight testing c...
For Sale Price:USD $99,000
Financial Calculator
Serial Number:121111
Registration #:N220TF
Total Time:50
Number of Seats:2

Robin Eissler
Georgetown, Texas
Seller Information
Phone:(561) 714-3070
Add To Watchlist
View My Watchlist
 
Here's another future example for sale:

2019 VANS RV-12
Light Sport Aircraft
Tango Flight is pleased to present one of the first VANS RV-12iS with the fuel injected engine available for sale. This aircraft will be completed in June 2019 and is available for purchase immediately. It will be delivered with new paint (to new owner's specifications) and all flight testing c...
For Sale Price:USD $99,000
Financial Calculator
Serial Number:121111
Registration #:N220TF
Total Time:50
Number of Seats:2

Robin Eissler
Georgetown, Texas
Seller Information
Phone:(561) 714-3070
Add To Watchlist
View My Watchlist

That is one of Tango Flight's RV-12Is Planes, and it is sold!

We do have another RV-12iS that will be ready for delivery by approximately the end of June if anyone is interested.

-Dan
 
That is one of Tango Flight's RV-12Is Planes, and it is sold!

We do have another RV-12iS that will be ready for delivery by approximately the end of June if anyone is interested.

-Dan

Aannnd....that one is spoken for now, eh?

John L.
 
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