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Van's offers RV-12 AOA kit

Excellent offering. Many of us have already installed AOAs on RV-12s. Should be a must add for new builds. Great move Van's!
 
directions are confusing.........

is it just me, or does this make no sense?

as a -9a driver that wants to send AoA to my D-10a, I plan to use the same type port.
it IS in about the same spot as previous empirical installations by the smart -12 guys!...as far as I can tell.

what is confusing is all these templates and brackets....what the heck are they for? It SOUNDS like it's just a rivet in the lower skin, but then there's some big fancy tube and angled bracket.

....I await the feedback from the braintrust with great anticipation! :rolleyes:
 
About 90% of those install instructions involve installing the AOA line in the wing root so it will disconnect and re-connect when the wings are removed and re-installed. That's RV-12 specific. I just used a quarter-turn quick disconnect fitting, so there's an extra step to removing and re-installing my wings. Since that's a two-person job anyway, it's not a lot of extra hassle.
 
is it just me, or does this make no sense?

as a -9a driver that wants to send AoA to my D-10a, I plan to use the same type port.
it IS in about the same spot as previous empirical installations by the smart -12 guys!...as far as I can tell.

what is confusing is all these templates and brackets....what the heck are they for? It SOUNDS like it's just a rivet in the lower skin, but then there's some big fancy tube and angled bracket.

....I await the feedback from the braintrust with great anticipation! :rolleyes:

Your RV-9 doesn't have wings that remove in 2 minutes...... The RV-12 does.
The templates are for installing a passive interconnect for the AOA sense line.
 
I went to Van's site and couldn't find this listed. I will order two for planes we have in progress (wish I had seen this a month ago before we finished the wing of one of them, need the other soon.) Nothing came up when I searched for RV-12 AOA RETRO Kit. Any ideas here? How much are they?

Bob
 
Call Van's to order

I went to Van's site and couldn't find this listed. I will order two for planes we have in progress (wish I had seen this a month ago before we finished the wing of one of them, need the other soon.) Nothing came up when I searched for RV-12 AOA RETRO Kit. Any ideas here? How much are they?

Bob

$49 + shipping
 
Hey, they used my idea! I think they should compensate me by giving me a free aircraft kit. an RV-9 would be nice. :D
 
Hey, they used my idea! I think they should compensate me by giving me a free aircraft kit. an RV-9 would be nice. :D

Ha, ha!! Your idea.... YES. Your simple $10 implementation... Hmmm, not even close!!
But seriously, happy that Van's is offering the AOA option. Another tool to add some safety margin.
 
Hey, they used my idea! I think they should compensate me by giving me a free aircraft kit. an RV-9 would be nice. :D
Well, I would sure hope they at least send you something nice for coming up with it. I know I certainly owe you a beer or two.
 
aaaaahhhhhh!!!!!

Your RV-9 doesn't have wings that remove in 2 minutes...... The RV-12 does.
The templates are for installing a passive interconnect for the AOA sense line.

Thanks Scott! I can ignore the last half of the instructions then! ( I'm very good at that!)
kudos to you guys, for coming up with a nice 'package' solution for those not keen to do the 'sperimentin'! :)

( now if I could just get those wings off, I could bring my plane home in February, and get this stuff installed!!!!!! I think I see another mod coming!.....hinged folding wing attach for the -9!!! :D)
 
Thanks Rob. Not a bad price, either. Will buy two for our two projects and save all that shipping...

Bob
 
Thanks Scott! I can ignore the last half of the instructions then! ( I'm very good at that!)
kudos to you guys, for coming up with a nice 'package' solution for those not keen to do the 'sperimentin'! :)

( now if I could just get those wings off, I could bring my plane home in February, and get this stuff installed!!!!!! I think I see another mod coming!.....hinged folding wing attach for the -9!!! :D)

I can't guaranty that the rivet position prescribed in the kit will work for an RV-9 (but it should be pretty close)
The RV-12 uses the 23000 series airfoil like most of the 2 seat RV's but the RV-9 is different.
 
I can't guaranty that the rivet position prescribed in the kit will work for an RV-9 (but it should be pretty close)
The RV-12 uses the 23000 series airfoil like most of the 2 seat RV's but the RV-9 is different.
If you look back and find Joe's original post on the RV-12 AOA, he shows how he determined the location of the port. 30 degrees from horizontal, if I recall correctly. I'm not an aeronautical engineer, fluid dynamics guy or a physicist (or much of a pilot for that matter), but I don't think the precise angle is super critical... that's why there is an AOA calibration routine.
 
Great addition!

This is appreciated by me, a low time pilot. I appreciate this addition - I was going to add an AOA set up to my twelve after certification - now, I can put into the build - this kit just keeps getting better and better.

Thanks to Van's engineers and staff.
 
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If you look back and find Joe's original post on the RV-12 AOA, he shows how he determined the location of the port. 30 degrees from horizontal, if I recall correctly. I'm not an aeronautical engineer, fluid dynamics guy or a physicist (or much of a pilot for that matter), but I don't think the precise angle is super critical... that's why there is an AOA calibration routine.

Ok!

We ended up doing a bit of experimenting to come up with the location specified in the kit to get the result we wanted.
I guess Joe is smarter than us:rolleyes:.
 
Actually all that I did was to look at Dynon's pitot-AOA probe and estimate that the surface containing the AOA port is about 30 degrees from horizontal. So that is where I drilled the hole in the wing. I suppose that Dynon could say, "Hey, Joe used our idea." :D
464828655.jpg
 
Actually all that I did was to look at Dynon's pitot-AOA probe and estimate that the surface containing the AOA port is about 30 degrees from horizontal. So that is where I drilled the hole in the wing. I suppose that Dynon could say, "Hey, Joe used our idea." :D
464828655.jpg

Yea, that's what we did also and we found that it wasn't quite ideal.
The airflow and surrounding pressure around the pitot tube is apparently not the same as it is down at the surface of a large wing panel.
We found that the stagnation point at high angles of attack was getting close enough to the AOA port that it began to have influence on accuracy.

I think our final position is more like 20 degrees.
 
Thanks to Van's and staff for doing this.
Is there any known effect of water if fly through rain on AoA displayed accuracy or reliability?
 
The airflow and surrounding pressure around the pitot tube is apparently not the same as it is down at the surface of a large wing panel. We found that the stagnation point at high angles of attack was getting close enough to the AOA port that it began to have influence on accuracy.
Is this the reason you can?t use a combination pitot tube/AOA probe similar to the Dynon combo unit, but have it pass through the spinner like the regular RV-12 pitot tube?
 
Is this the reason you can?t use a combination pitot tube/AOA probe similar to the Dynon combo unit, but have it pass through the spinner like the regular RV-12 pitot tube?

No

The spinner pitot was chosen as a way to avoid the potential failure mode of an interconnect in the pitot line for the removable wings.
 
Plus it lets you do this:

IMG_1416-768x576.jpg


Keeps your pitot (and shirt sleeves) protected, and your tow bar handle off the floor.
 
"Almost" Easy Peezy

I did the AOA mod a week ago and it does take about 6 hours for kit number 161. Newer kits might be easier. While the pictures are not adjacent to the work step the directions work fine.
 
The eye dropper bulb from Rogaine makes a great pitot cover if you pierce it with a cable tie to attach a Remove Before Flight flag from one of those novelty keychains --- have to say I got more use out of the eye dropper bulb than the Rogaine!😜
 
Question on the connect/disconnect for Scott

About 90% of those install instructions involve installing the AOA line in the wing root so it will disconnect and re-connect when the wings are removed and re-installed. That's RV-12 specific. I just used a quarter-turn quick disconnect fitting, so there's an extra step to removing and re-installing my wings. Since that's a two-person job anyway, it's not a lot of extra hassle.

I ordered the AOA kit and will install it when I get in the right mood for doing all the panel removal, etc. Reading the instructions, a few things are confusing:

First, (minor point) I think it would be handy to having a nice drawing of just where the AOA port should be drilled in the wing, rather than the photograph. The full-color from the web page helps, but the black and white printed version is difficult to understand.

Second, I'm curious about the operation of the connection at the wing root--the quick connects grab the 1/4" tube when you insert them--but how does it release, without getting your fingers in there to push back the release sleeve on the connector? Does that O-ring somehow get involved in enabling the release? I live in fear of inserting the wings and not be able to pull it apart?
 
Rob,
The kit comes with a screw on cap that keeps the release depressed so the AOA tube can be retracted with the wing.

Mitch
 
tubing routing

In a retrofit, how are you pulling the PT 1/8 tubing in the J-channel from the stall warning bay to the wing root rib?
 
tubing routing

With the wing upside down on a bench, I threaded a stiff wire from the wing root thru the J-channel to the AOA port bay. Attached the tube to the wire and pulled it back thru to the wing root end per instructions. The wire I used looks like safety wire but is much stiffer and approx .04" diameter, maybe more. (can't measure it now) Safety wire is not stiff enough. It may be what's called piano wire. Try a search at Amazon.

To attach the wire to the tube, I made a loop and a half (540 degrees) a little larger than the tube diameter and stuffed it into the tube. The end of the wire acted like a barb and gripped the inside of the tube. Very positive grip, had to cut the tube to get it out.
 
#30 long drill

I simply slid a 12" #30 drill into one end of the plastic tubing and masking taped them together. Other than that it was simply long arms moving the tubing through the channel. Eazy Peazy.
 
I simply slid a 12" #30 drill into one end of the plastic tubing and masking taped them together. Other than that it was simply long arms moving the tubing through the channel. Eazy Peazy.
We're on this step right now and finding that 48" of clear tube isn't enough to reach both the J-channel and the 2nd rib from the wing root - did you have anything like this, or am I doing something wrong? Also unclear on how to reach far enough into the wing to tie wrap the tube to the J-channel along the way.
 
FYI......

Totally off topic...
I noticed on your web page your discussion about tracking time for maint. and that tach. time was the preferred method for engine maint.

That is true for a Lycoming, etc., but not for a Rotax.
Rotax specifically specifies that Hobbs time be used.
The reason is that low speed operation (particularly idling) is not consider a lower wear operation mode. In a Rotax it is actually higher because iddling causes a higher level of wear in the gear box.

That is why the settings file from Van's doesn't have the tach time configured on the display.


Posting here so that people that refer to your web site don't misconstrue your information as being standard procedure.....
 
We're on this step right now and finding that 48" of clear tube isn't enough to reach both the J-channel and the 2nd rib from the wing root - did you have anything like this, or am I doing something wrong? Also unclear on how to reach far enough into the wing to tie wrap the tube to the J-channel along the way.

I do not remember having any issues. We simply followed the instructions. Re. the tie wrap. We did what we could but I don't think we could reach all locations.
 
I do not remember having any issues. We simply followed the instructions. Re. the tie wrap. We did what we could but I don't think we could reach all locations.
Okay, thanks. We'll do what we can with the J-channel once we get a longer length of hose. 48" just doesn't reach once we lead it back to the J-channel.
 
AOA install

I pulled the tubing thru the J channel using a spare hinge wire. Then applied a little RTV at each rib with a dab on the end of a remodeled fishing pole. I considered it my first attempt at 'fly fishing'....sorry
 
Yea, that's what we did also and we found that it wasn't quite ideal.
The airflow and surrounding pressure around the pitot tube is apparently not the same as it is down at the surface of a large wing panel.
We found that the stagnation point at high angles of attack was getting close enough to the AOA port that it began to have influence on accuracy.

I think our final position is more like 20 degrees.
I intend to build in a boom mount Dynon pitot/AoA: through the spinner.
(http://www.dynonavionics.com/aoa-pitot-probes.php)

It saves the hassle of connecting and reconnecting the wings (I'll dismantle the RV after every flight), and saves the risk of leaks.
Since the boom isn't underneath 'a large area such as the wing' the angle of incoming air is to be expected more 'clean'.

What does VAF think of this possibility, please?
 
What does VAF think of this possibility, please?

Well, since it was a post of mine that you quoted, I will offer that I think you would be adding a lot of work complexity and expense for zero benefit.

If the RV-12 AOA kit is installed per the instructions (specifically, the port is properly located) the system works great, and there is no connections to deal with when removing or installing the wings... the connection for the pitot port happens automatically.
 
OK, will this work with the original D-180

or only with the Skyview? And is there finally a part number for the new canopy latch?

Wayne 120241/143WM
 
or only with the Skyview? And is there finally a part number for the new canopy latch?

Wayne 120241/143WM

This style AOA port was first used on D-180's by many RV-12 owners so the kit should work.

The first finish kit hasn't shipped yet but the orders people at Van's may be able to help since it is getting close.
 
Yea, that's what we did also and we found that it wasn't quite ideal.
The airflow and surrounding pressure around the pitot tube is apparently not the same as it is down at the surface of a large wing panel.
We found that the stagnation point at high angles of attack was getting close enough to the AOA port that it began to have influence on accuracy.

I think our final position is more like 20 degrees.

Scott,

I plan to follow this approach on my 10. Can you elaborate on how similar or dissimilar the 10 wing is from the 12 wing? Would you expect the 20* orientation to also work well on the 10 wing. I realize that no testing has been done for the 10 and i am in experimentation territory.
 
Scott,

I plan to follow this approach on my 10. Can you elaborate on how similar or dissimilar the 10 wing is from the 12 wing? Would you expect the 20* orientation to also work well on the 10 wing. I realize that no testing has been done for the 10 and i am in experimentation territory.

It should be pretty close for the 10 as well but I have never analyzed it because we have pitot mounted ports on both of our RV-10's.

It would be better to be slightly aft of nominal than fwd of nominal. If the port gets near the flow stagnation point as the wing approaches stall AOA, the reading on the indicator can begin reverse and show that AOA is decreasing. I have this issue with my RV-6A because I had to guess at position. I will be adding another port in the future.
 
It should be pretty close for the 10 as well but I have never analyzed it because we have pitot mounted ports on both of our RV-10's.

It would be better to be slightly aft of nominal than fwd of nominal. If the port gets near the flow stagnation point as the wing approaches stall AOA, the reading on the indicator can begin reverse and show that AOA is decreasing. I have this issue with my RV-6A because I had to guess at position. I will be adding another port in the future.

Thanks for the insight Scott! Do you know what angle the 10 wing stalls at? If it is greater than 20* from the relative wind, it is hard to see how the 20* location eould work. Though i suupose the large decent angle near stall speed will keep the relative wind at a good angle down from the chord line.
 
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Thanks for the insight Scott! Do you know what angle the 10 wing stalls at? If it is greater than 20* from the relative wind, it is hard to see how the 20* location eould work. Though i suupose the large decent angle near stall speed will keep the relative wind at a good angle down from the chord line.

Most airfoils stall at something close to 17* AOA, but I can't tell you for sure what what the correct zero angle reference is on the RV-10 because of the influence of the reflex.
If Steve (designer see's this thread, possibly he would be willing to comment)

Sorry for the thread drift, if a moderator wanted to break this off into a new thread in the RV-10 forum, that would probably be a good thing.
 
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