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Parachutes - Why?

pvalovich

Well Known Member
Quiet day at the office - and for some reason I realized there hasn't been a food fight on VAF for a while. So here goes:

I have 230 hours on my -8A and have pretty much explored the whole flight envelope, including spins. I have found that I have to forcefully hold the plane into stalls and spins. As soon as I let go, it instantly recovers. I do not wear a parachute.

Question / Request for Opinions: Since the RV exibits such great stability and superb flying qualities, and no one (or rumor has it, maybe one guy) has jumped out of an airborne RV, why do folks go to the expense and trouble of using parachutes? With a slider canopy and the trouble one would have opening / jettisoning in flight, seems like the bail out procedures would more than likely just be something to keep you occupied until you died.

Not trying to be a wise guy, but inquiring minds would like to know.
 
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and no one (or rumor has it, maybe one guy) has jumped out of an airborne RV, why do folks go to the expense and trouble of using parachutes?

It's not a rumor -- it's a fact. RV-8 was on fire and his best option at the time was to jump without a chute. The man's son was at least at one time a member here on VAF so we should be sensitive on this issue.

Sean Tucker bailed out after breaking an elevator control. I think the time chutes are most appreciated is when something *breaks*, not when the airplane is put into an unrecoverable situation.

Great topic, BTW!
 
Well, if you do intentional acro, with a passenger, FAR 91.307(c) says you have to have a chute.
 
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Well, if you do intentional acro, FAR 91.307(c) says you have to have a chute.

Unless you are solo, in which case, it's up to you.

I wear a chute primarily for test flying an unproven airplane. I fly gentleman's acro almost every day, and don't take the chute with me for those kind of activites.
 
I understand the FAR's, just wondering if you can even get out of an Rv-7 or 6 with the tip up canopy. If it is not even possible, then I wonder if there is a way to get the FAR requirement waived.
 
I understand the FAR's, just wondering if you can even get out of an Rv-7 or 6 with the tip up canopy. If it is not even possible, then I wonder if there is a way to get the FAR requirement waived.

If you build it with the jettison pins and handle, I think that the Tip-up is probably the MOST likely of all the RV's to get out of (with the exception of the -4 and -3 tip-overs I guess) - once the leading edge is loose and up in the breeze, I am pretty sure the canopy is going to depart.
 
So are people using chutes as standard eqiupment?

Are they sit on? Or hang on your back?

Guess they're not comfortable as seat cushions.
 
........(with the exception of the -4 and -3 tip-overs I guess) - once the leading edge is loose and up in the breeze, I am pretty sure the canopy is going to depart.

Paul, I know a guy from Georgia who's -4 canopy departed cleanly, but denting the fin in the process. He'd forgotten to latch it properly. I got the story after asking him what had happened to dent the fin at a fly-in.

Best,
 
My tip-up canopy was built IAW the plans before the "struts" era. I have all the confidence in the world that I can jettison my canopy if the need arises. Hopefully it will not!

If I had the struts, I would remove them anytime I wear a chute. The struts would probably break, but the canopy might do considerable damage to your head in the process.
 
Well, if you do intentional acro, FAR 91.307(c) says you have to have a chute.

I'm surprised this continues to come up. If you are going to reference the regs, please actually read them.

FAR 91.307 - (c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds?
 
Aerobatics?

There is still an error. This reg references attitudes and not aerobatics. Aerobatics is a completely subjective thing with its own set of rules. You can stay under thirty degrees of bank and ten degrees of pitch and can be deemed to be performing aerobatics. There is no reference to parachutes in the section on aerobatics.
 
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If you build it with the jettison pins and handle, I think that the Tip-up is probably the MOST likely of all the RV's to get out of...
I think the slider canopies that have pins holding the forward bow to the wheels in the track (instead of bolts) have a better chance than I do in my tip-up, but only just. Pull the pins, pull back the 1-2" that it will open in flight, and push up. The leading edge will catch the slipstream, and that canopy will be gonzo. Should work on the 6, 7, and 8.

As to whether it takes the fin off, well, personally I wouldn't care. If i'm jettisoning the canopy, it's so I can get out, not so I can fly the plane.
 
why do folks go to the expense and trouble of using parachutes?

I was a nah sayer for a long time. I resisted. Cost, comfort, hassle, weight, comfort, comfort etc. I mean really... at the low altitudes I fly at will a chute ever do me any good? I had convinced myself that where I fly high risk (Under 1k') a chute would do me no good.

I was tipped over by several real cases.
1. THE case that tipped me over. This could easily have been me. It has nearly been me on more than one occasion. What that pilot did inspired me. If that old fart can do it, then by golly I can too.
2. I asked around folks in the air show business that do what I do. "Tell me why I should bother." I was given real data that I thought, while slightly skewed, actually told me a compelling story.
3. A pilot, who shall remain nameless, was in an aerobatic box when a rogue plane entered the box and a mid air ensued. The aerobatic pilot was able to escape and survive, with injuries, with his chute. I have been nearly hit before, by a rogue plane, in a box. This got my attention.
4. Course the well documented Sean story

While there are many other anecdotal stories and tales, there was a point at which I tipped over and decided that this this enough to warrant the cost, comfort and hassle of it.

I now struggle over helmets. Air show accidents over the years also tell a compelling story. Yet another uncomfortable, hot, heavy, ugly, costly, pilot thing to debate about.
 
tip up

It's not as hard to open doors into the wind as everyone seems to think. I've gotten out of a few cessnas with original doors at 90 knots. Yes I did it for fun.
 
Well I actually own a Decathlon now(looking a RV7) I have a ParaPhernalia Softie 16" back pack, its light and is pretty comfortable.
 
I now struggle over helmets. Air show accidents over the years also tell a compelling story. Yet another uncomfortable, hot, heavy, ugly, costly, pilot thing to debate about.

I know first hand............the feeling of being catapulted onto the highway head first, at 65 mph, and being extremely thankful for having a full face helmet with shield. Mine was a deer/motorcycle accident. Yes, there will be times, when you'll wish the extra protection was there.

Note: Actually there was no feeling at all. Just a sense of wondering when the tumbling & deceleration would be done with. Time certainly seemed to greatly extend itself for the duration of that 150'....between impact & stop.
I find it interesting, how the body reacts to pain. I looked as though I had been forced against a large rotating grinder wheel.........from the neck down.

L.Adamson
 
Okay, interesting discussion, but the question for me remains: how do I get out of the airplane? I'm about to become a new RV-8 pilot, and I'm really not sure how in the world I would get out.

I plan on flying quite a bit of aerobatics and formation, and I agree that the chute is there mainly in case I break something off or somebody swaps paint with me. But how do I make sure I don't just ride it in while beating my fists against the inside of the canopy?

What are the steps, things to remember, points to ponder, gotchas, and pitfalls?
 
I can't believe there is not more info/testing for getting out of a RV in the event of a inflight breakup/or emergency, as much aerobatics that are done in RV's you would think this would be one of the more known bits of info,, one thing I like about the Decathlon is the ease of egress, pull handle hit door and cya,,
 
Pull pins

Okay, interesting discussion, but the question for me remains: how do I get out of the airplane? I'm about to become a new RV-8 pilot, and I'm really not sure how in the world I would get out.

I plan on flying quite a bit of aerobatics and formation, and I agree that the chute is there mainly in case I break something off or somebody swaps paint with me. But how do I make sure I don't just ride it in while beating my fists against the inside of the canopy?

What are the steps, things to remember, points to ponder, gotchas, and pitfalls?

Replace the AN bolts that hold the canopy on the rollers with clevis pin, the kind where you push the pin to release. In the event you need to pull the pins and pull the canopy open and push it up into the wind stream, will leave the plane I am sure. The canopy may hit your tail as it leaves but what do you car you are going for the nylon letdown!
 
Just cut a notch out of the top of the rail. I did a lengthy write up on this. When I have time I'll review my post and add a link.

Unless someone is bored at work and could find it for me? :)
 
I can't believe there is not more info/testing for getting out of a RV in the event of a inflight breakup/or emergency, as much aerobatics that are done in RV's you would think this would be one of the more known bits of info,, one thing I like about the Decathlon is the ease of egress, pull handle hit door and cya,,

I'd be happy to conduct the flight testing if you'll loan me your airplane? :)
 
if you want to bail out during a real emergency you will need a gump type plan.

HHHH, headset, hatch, harness, heave! dont forget to pull the chute. a good low altitude chute will deploy in 300'.:)
 
Clevis Pins

I've had clevis pins on my 6A since 2005. I occasionally remove them to take the canopy off for mx. They need regular lubing or they can become very hard to remove. Test them before a demanding flight. Perhaps put the test on your checklist? A tandem is probably much easier than reaching across a pax in a side by side slider.

A better system might be just a smooth pin with a loop of small diameter cable velcroed to the canopy frame with perhaps a small red flag attached. The loops would give you a much better pull handle and the pins would eliminate the push button.

Imagine a midair, or fire, and your plane in an inverted spin with you and a friend frantically trying to get that canopy off. Practice on the ground so it becomes something you can do in a few seconds.
 
I'm sure someone has tried to al least open their slider canopy in flight? Thought I saw a thread on this a few years ago. Wondering how far they were easily able to slide it open? I like the idea of using pins.
 
Replace the AN bolts that hold the canopy on the rollers with clevis pin, the kind where you push the pin to release. In the event you need to pull the pins and pull the canopy open and push it up into the wind stream, will leave the plane I am sure. The canopy may hit your tail as it leaves but what do you car you are going for the nylon letdown!

I used pip pins here (the kind with the round ball detent); I thought about clevis pins but in an oh-my-gosh-get-out-now scenario, I think fine motor control degrades rapidly which would make clevis pins harder to operate.
 
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I like how my dad put it.. whether you'll be able to get out or not, at least a chute gives you something to do on the way down.
 
HHHH, headset, hatch, harness, heave! dont forget to pull the chute. a good low altitude chute will deploy in 300'.:)
"Duck, shuck, and huck."

Duck and dump the canopy, shuck the harness and headset, and huck myself over the side.

I practice it too, with a more gentle canopy opening.
 
Okay, interesting discussion, but the question for me remains: how do I get out of the airplane? I'm about to become a new RV-8 pilot, and I'm really not sure how in the world I would get out.

If a picture says a thousand words, perhaps I should say no more. Does this help:

canopypin.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
I have been reading this thread with interest since a Chute was one of the things I was wondering about. Here are a couple questions:

1.Is the popular opinion that you are not required by the Regs to have a chute if you do acro solo?

2. With a chute being a good idea, Do you guys take a few jump lessons so that in the event you needed to leave your aircraft you know how to properly activate the chute and guide it to a safe landing?

Thanks!
Dom
 
I have been reading this thread with interest since a Chute was one of the things I was wondering about. Here are a couple questions:

1.Is the popular opinion that you are not required by the Regs to have a chute if you do acro solo?

2. With a chute being a good idea, Do you guys take a few jump lessons so that in the event you needed to leave your aircraft you know how to properly activate the chute and guide it to a safe landing?

Thanks!
Dom

1. Its not popular opinion. Its a fact.
2. This is not answerable to your satisfaction. Some do, some don't. I did. You will have to decide for yourself.
 
2. With a chute being a good idea, Do you guys take a few jump lessons so that in the event you needed to leave your aircraft you know how to properly activate the chute and guide it to a safe landing?

Awesome idea! I would highly recommend for those that are wearing, or considering wearing, a pilot rig, to actually consider or make at least an AFF skydive (Accelerated Freefall Program-visit uspa.org for more info). I know of a Chief Engineer that did exactly that prior to flying a one of a kind Experimental. Pretty heads up move on his part. He also trained in unusual attitude recovery... One can draw the analogy of this situation being similar to owning/carrying a firearm and yet have never fired it on a range. A total unknown the first time you use it...

Second - Practice, practice, practice... Put your rig on, climb in, and practice the emergency egress. Passengers too! Now do it again... This is where Turbo's checklist comes in. (Great idea!) What you practice on the ground is probably what you will do in the air under the actual emergency. Anything skydiving is drilled ad naseum on the ground before climbing in the airplane. It works...

Third - Canopy/rig selection... You may or may not want a 26' Lopo reserve (round parachute). By going through the AFF training, you are now trained on ram air parachute operation. And guess what, it lands very similarly to an airplane!:cool: It will give you the option of missing the power lines when a round parachute may not. I think (personal opinion here) even a untrained individual could walk away from a ram air landing if they were instructed to leave it in brakes (toggles stowed) after deployment. Talk to the rig manufacturers. Most, if not all, are skydivers who can recommend the best rig/canopy selection for you and your pax. Weight matters in the selection so make sure it's sized for your weight/size...:rolleyes:

If considering a used rig, have a FAA Parachute Rigger inspect it. I've seen some pilot rigs that are so sun damaged that they were grounded, yet would probably pass muster for an untrained eye. (UV light is damaging for nylon parachute components). Keep your rig stored in a parachute bag and not in the direct sunlight.

Wearing a pilot rig adds to your optional permutations, but ensure that you and your pax are trained to use it properly.
 
Another thing to consider is going to a vertical wind tunnel to get a feel for freefall. If you are low, you really have no time to worry about being stable. Get out and pull and hope for the best.

You need to know how to steer. Does your round have a four-line release? How do the toggles work?

What about a PLF?

Education and practice are essential.
 
I hadn't thought about it before, but I think getting some jump/parachuting instruction is a great idea. Some 30 years ago I did it just for fun. There have no doubt been lots of changes in the field since then, but I remember some interesting lessons.

For one thing, an untrained individual, when put into a freefall situation, will "fall wrong." You'll almost certainly fall back first, which is not a good position for parachute deployment if the parachute is on your back! Part of parachuting instruction is to learn to arch your back, with knees bent, and arms extended and held way back behind the plane made by your body. This will move your CG forward and cause you to fall "face first."

Second, if you're manually deploying your parachute (there is also such a thing as an automatic deployment based on altitude and vertical speed), it's very important to "LOOK, REACH, PULL, (and ARCH)." We were told a story of a woman skydiver who fell all the way to the ground without deploying her parachute. They found that there was nothing wrong with her 'chute. They also found that she had a literally a death grip on one of the riser rings attached to her harness. They concluded that she has trying -- with all her might -- to pull what she apparently thought was the rip cord handle, but was actually part of her harness/riser assembly. Had she had the wherewithall to LOOK at what she was grabbing, she could have ensured that she grabbed the correct thing and be alive today.

There's undoubtedly more, but these two things demonstrate to me that it'd be an excellent idea to get some actual parachuting and skydiving experience before actually wearing a parachute. Such a shame it would be to successfully remove yourself from your out-of-control airplane, only to die as a result of not deploying your parachute properly.
 
I hadn't thought about it before, but I think getting some jump/parachuting instruction is a great idea. Some 30 years ago I did it just for fun. There have no doubt been lots of changes in the field since then, but I remember some interesting lessons.

+1

Even with only two tandem for-fun jumps, I looked at the chute while doing some acro training differently afterwards. I think I'd much more efficient about the whole process with the under 'chute having been an experience vs. only a mental idea of what will happen.
 
I?ll take a Stab at some of the original questions, mainly because I?ve had a chance to experiment with various chute types, helmet/headset types and fly an RV-8.

On the WHY? Simple. Stuff happens. So if you are an adventurous pilot who likes flying 3 feet from others, it could save you. If you are a really adventurous one who likes to do 20 minute acro sessions that require you to write down the sequence so you can remember it all, it?s also a good idea. One, confidence. Two, you can?t discount Geese, Buzzards, and morons in spam cans that seem to think your smoke trail is something they want to fly through.
On the chute type, Seat Cushion versus Back Pack question;

Seat Back Style: If your RV-8 is going to have the adjustable rudder pedals (honestly, you?d be smart to install them no matter what) you can get away with a Back Pack style chute. No matter what the manufacturer tells you, a Seat BACK style chute IS going to push you forward further than the standard seat back cushion from Vans. So you will feel a little cramped in that the instrument panel and windscreen bow will be closer to your than you are accustomed too. However, long term flight in the back pack chute is generally a non -issue. I have flown five or more, one hour hops with about a 30 to 45 minute rest between hops with no appreciable pain using this type of chute. In this case, it was a Para-Phenalia MINI. No pain. No discomfort. Nothing. Personally however, I did NOT like the back pack design in the RV-8 because I felt it really pushed me further forward than I like, but with adjustable pedals, it was not really a problem, leg wise. I am 5? 10 inches and needed to adjust the pedals forward a notch or so. Without adjustable pedals, forget it unless you are shall we say, vertically challenged. None-adjustable pedals may mean you may not be able to use a seat back type. Borrow one first to find out. In my case, the chute was used mostly for close formation flight, and it repositioned me so that the windscreen bow was dead in the middle of my line of sight to the lead aircraft I was formatting on, particularly from the number Two position. No so bad if off his right wing. So if you plan on doing that sort of thing, you need to consider seating position and site lines when deciding which way to go between seat pack or seat cushion types. Best advice. BORROW both and find out. On the upside, I think it would be very easy to get out of the RV-8 using this type of chute as there is nothing hanging down below you. When you ?rise? to clear the cockpit (roll, fall, whatever) the chute is rising with your back and clears the seat back as you egress. This IS important. If you gotta get out, a back pack design may be a lot easier to egress the RV than a seat cushion pack.

Seat Cushion Style: The seat cushion types (Strong Mod 304 etc.) is wonderful in as much as it does not screw with your site lines. You remove your seat bottom, and put a 1 inch thick by 6 inch wide by 14 inch long piece of hard foam in the seat pan (which is used to keep the chute pack level). When you climb in, you now have the same seat height as you would have had with the seat cushion in place. Your fore and aft sight lines remain the same as well, so there is no need to readjust your head position constantly due to the windscreen bow being in the way. The DOWN SIDE of the seat bottom type is that it?s like sitting on a briquette. Worse, in the RV, you cannot use a thick cushion on top of the chute because there is not enough head clearance. You can order padding from Strong, but height is critical in the RVs. So you have to test the concept before spending $$ on a seat pad you cannot ultimately use. If you do not level the chute with a filler pad beneath it , you might be able to get away with some sort of pad on top of the chute. The concern then becomes that the chute is angled too steeply at the front and cuts off leg circulation. I have about 20 hours sitting on these suckers for formation flights and even with the aforementioned 40 minute break between hops, you are in agony after about three or four hours. I also wonder if egress will be as simple with the seat bottom type. Probably not, but its one more thing hanging down inside as you bail. However, several war bird guys have used the Strong 304 and 306 models to actually save their keister?s when it hit the fan. I recommend reviewing the Big Beautiful Doll youtube video on just how quickly it can go bad and how low you can be and still survive with a Low Porosity canopy. When the pilot parted ways he had 500 to 600 feet left to impact. The canopy popped, he swung once, and was on the ground! They WORK! Finally, if you are not flying hard core hops like mentioned above, the seat bottom type is comfortable enough for a typical session of sky busting.
Personally, for ease of egress and comfort, I want to say stick to the seat BACK design in the RV-8. Naturally, being and idiot, I insisted on buying the seat bottom type due to the sight lines. I do more formation than acro of late and it annoyed me to no end being so forward in the cockpit.
On Helmets. Love them or hate them, IF you are going to use one, you SHOULD look into a quick disconnect plug: part number U-92A/U which is also part MS177/3-1. This allows you separate your helmet from the headset cables in a HURRY. You simply have to splice it inline a few inches down the line from the helmet proper. You then rewire the remaining long lead on the jack/radio side to a TP-120 plug, which plugs into the U-92A/U on the helmet side. Rather than having to reach down and find your headset jacks to pull the mic and speaker plugs, you just tug on the central plug (the TP-120) going into the U-92A/U adapter and off you go. Why bother? I have heard several stories of folks trying to bail only to be yanked back in by their lead wires. The Adapter gives you a break away point even if you forget. Of course, a headset is a different story. Those you can toss. But a helmet is not coming off should you need to leave the premise quickly.

As far is wearing a lid, I seldom do for anything but acro sequences or tight formation. But I can tell you if you are doing a lot of formation in clear whether, that visor is an EYEBALL saver, or maybe even a life saver. Using sunglasses and a visor, you can look straight up at the leader while the conniving, mean spirited, foul rat B****rd positions you so that you are staring right into the sun for 367,921 seconds or the end of time, whichever comes first! Without it, wow, PAIN. So people may want to laugh at you for wearing one, but you kept position and did not hit anyone else?s aircraft for being blinded! :D Nice to have coming over the top of a loop into the sun as well.

Canopy release. Enough covered here. But there are plenty of methods to get the RV-8 lid to part ways. That?s the least of your worries. :D
 
Butler makes a great rig

I use a Butler seat cushion type in the front and use a Butler back pack for the back seat. Butler is I believe the only dedicated emergency parachute manufacturer in the states. They do not make sport rigs. Their front seat cushion style that I have does not require any additional foam to fit correctly in the front seat. It is custom made for the RV-8 and will fit perfectly. They sent me a back pack style when I was building to see if I wanted that. I did not like how it pushed me forward. I have 300 sport parachute jumps and preferred a back pack style however I ended up going with the seat cushion style. Look around test some different set ups and pick what is best for you, good luck
 
Paul, I know a guy from Georgia who's -4 canopy departed cleanly, but denting the fin in the process. He'd forgotten to latch it properly. I got the story after asking him what had happened to dent the fin at a fly-in.

Best,

Yep, I have first hand knowledge about the -4 canopy departing. Explosive bolts could not have done a better job. It made just the smallest bump on my HS. I had protective tape on the leading edge; cut the tape but did not harm the metal at all. I failed to latch the canopy.

Can also state it is REALLY windy w/o a canopy. I had trouble keeping my upper lip from covering my eyeballs!! :eek:

Cheers,
 
In 4 days time it will be 2 years to the day since I had a fatal (to the other guy) mid air.

I guess you can figure out fairly easily which side of this debate i'm on.

Would you go boating without a life jacket ?.

drive a car without a seat belt ?

How many people have died because they were wearing a parachute ?.

etc ............

If you can, wear one. AND learn how to use it.
 
"One, confidence. Two, you can?t discount Geese, Buzzards, and morons in spam cans that seem to think your smoke trail is something they want to fly through.
On the chute type, Seat Cushion versus Back Pack question"


Just for a second, let's check our egos at the door and be honest. There's more "morons" flying RVs than any other type airplane out there. Ive never seen a Piper Warrior do a high speed pass down the runway. I've also never seen a Cessna do an overhead break in the pattern. In fact, I've never heard of a spam can pilot ever even consider wearing a parachute because those pilots don't fly their airplanes in ways that the thought of wearing a parachute would even apply!

Don't believe me? Just search some RV videos on YouTube or attend a fly-in. See which airplanes are doing the fly-bys, hot dog maneuvers, and over-head breaks.

Having said that, when my RV is complete, I will wear a flight suit and a helmet for safety reasons. But I won't be the moron walking around all day at the fly-in still wearing a military green flight suit full of patches. :cool:
 
Before this gets out of hand, let me point out that "name calling" is pretty uncivil Mark, When you have to resort to calling others derogatory names, it usually means you have already lost your argument.
 
Are you doing the overhead break over your home airfield out in the country? Go for it! Nothing unsafe about it at all.

Or, are you doing it at the uncontrolled airport during a flyin where 100% of the other pilots (including the newer not-so-inexperienced pilots) are all doing the standard pattern entries? Yes, then in my opinion it becomes unsafe because everyone else knows where to look for other airplanes entering or even leaving the pattern.

Then here comes the RV guys doing the "non-standard" pattern entry screaming in at 180 kts doing something that is out of the norm. Is the overhead break unsafe? No, does it become unsafe when it's not the norm for the given day or situation? Absolutely.

There was a fly-in write up recently on another forums, my forums in fact (RANS CLAN.com) where the RVs did everything non standard and really threw a wrench in the system.

I'll see if I can find the post...
 
Paul, you might want to read the previous posts. The word "moron" was used as a direct reference to the word used by another to describe the spam can pilots.
 
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