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A dark topic...opinions

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As I begin the process of analyzing a potential aircraft purchase and I start taking a look at the right aircraft for my set of needs, I have a nagging and somewhat dark question that I struggle with...

Would you (do you) routinely fly with all of your immediate family in the same aircraft on the same flight?

Here's the deal;

I have a family of four consisting of my wife and I and our two children ages 6 and 8.

Just this past Father's day, I finally made my dream a reality by sharing my love of flight w/ each of my children. I rented a local spam can 172 and took each of them on a short, local area flight.

While I could have taken them both, I made the decision to fly them separately. I based this decision largely on the fact that in the event of a catastrophic accident, I wouldn't wipe the entire generation out.

Now I know that if I held on to that logic, I would never put all four of us in one family vehicle and drive (I'm well aware of how much safer flying is vs. driving), none the less, it weighed on me and I separated the two.

A little more backstory; About two years ago, I had a close colleague at work who had an airplane that he split w/ his son. The son loaded up the airplane w/ his wife and two kids and crashed. In that one moment my friend lost his son, daughter-in-law and both grand kids. It was tragic. The son was an accomplished pilot and instructor, the cause of the accident is still unknown.

Bringing this full circle, I'm conflicted on weather or not to focus on a 4 place w/ the intent of loading the whole family and heading out on an x-country or focusing on a 2-place and doing what I normally do (a little local area weekend fun).

Pretty certain I've answered my own question, but I'm interested in your perspective on this topic.
 
We've loaded our family of four plus dog in a Piper many times. I've had the same thoughts and always made sure the plane and pilot were airworthy.

Yes, there is risk, and the consequences of an accident are often more severe than with cars due to lack of advanced safety equipment.

I think this is one reason that Cirrus aircraft have become so popular - the chute. A used SR22 might be the ticket for you.
 
Taken a few family flights in 172?s (me, wife and two daughters) as well as a few trips with just me on my daughters (7 and 9).
Building my RV10 is specifically allow us to fly as a family and visit friends and relatives. I am more careful when the whole family is in the plane but don?t focus on the possibility that we can all crash. Granted as you state it can also happen on any of our long car trips or flying commercial. I?m sorry to hear of your colleagues loss but try not to let that prevent you from enjoying your time with your family.
 
If you develop and maintain good piloting skills, and maintain your equipment, I truly believe you are far safer in the air then driving. GA pilots fly their familes all over, the U.S., Canada, Bahamas etc. Read over the NTSB aircraft accident reports. A significant cause of most accidents are contributed to pilot error or poor maintenance. Yes, everything can be done right and it may still happen, but that could also be applied to everything you do in life.
 
Everything we do has risk. What about the RISK involved of driving the entire family to the airport to go flying in the same airplane? What about the RISK of flying the entire family on the same airline plane to the vacation retreat?

I am now getting into an area that may get this post deleted. I worry more about politics than I do flying in an airplane.
 
I think the main person to convince is your wife. If she?s good with it, then I?d say move forward. We can?t all fly as a family because there?s no planexwe all for in. I think my wife may be against it anyway. She doesn?t much like flying. Flying as a whole family has never been on the table, so maybe she would go for it if we could. I don?t think safety should be the biggest concern. Just be safe and stay current. The wife factor is the biggest imho.
 
As I begin the process of analyzing a potential aircraft purchase and I start taking a look at the right aircraft for my set of needs, I have a nagging and somewhat dark question that I struggle with...

Would you (do you) routinely fly with all of your immediate family in the same aircraft on the same flight?

Here's the deal;

I have a family of four consisting of my wife and I and our two children ages 6 and 8.

Just this past Father's day, I finally made my dream a reality by sharing my love of flight w/ each of my children. I rented a local spam can 172 and took each of them on a short, local area flight.

While I could have taken them both, I made the decision to fly them separately. I based this decision largely on the fact that in the event of a catastrophic accident, I wouldn't wipe the entire generation out.

Now I know that if I held on to that logic, I would never put all four of us in one family vehicle and drive (I'm well aware of how much safer flying is vs. driving), none the less, it weighed on me and I separated the two.

A little more backstory; About two years ago, I had a close colleague at work who had an airplane that he split w/ his son. The son loaded up the airplane w/ his wife and two kids and crashed. In that one moment my friend lost his son, daughter-in-law and both grand kids. It was tragic. The son was an accomplished pilot and instructor, the cause of the accident is still unknown.

Bringing this full circle, I'm conflicted on weather or not to focus on a 4 place w/ the intent of loading the whole family and heading out on an x-country or focusing on a 2-place and doing what I normally do (a little local area weekend fun).

Pretty certain I've answered my own question, but I'm interested in your perspective on this topic.

A few random thoughts here...

First, I would forget about the incident with your colleague. The reason for the accident may have nothing to do with how or what you fly, your skills, etc. It's tragic, but I wouldn't let someone else's fate determine mine, all on its own.

Second, as has been stated, manage your risks well. Know which ones you can accept and why, and which ones you can't, and how to mitigate any you can. Examples may, for you, include not flying in marginal weather, or at night on a XC, or always always ALWAYS ensuring adequate fuel + a healthy reserve (say an hour?), or whatever you come up with. Fly often, practice regularly, and maintain the plane well. Know when to say no. Things like that.

If you eliminate the biggest causes of accidents (sadly, yes, the biggest is fuel mismanagement...sigh...which usually isn't fatal; VFR into IMC, another biggie, IS, though) then I'd say you've gone most of the way to minimizing your risk posture.

And BTW, flying is NOT safet than driving. Flying *commercial* is, by far, but GA is not. IIRC, it falls somewhere between driving and motorcycle riding.

Lastly...don't let extreme outliers and fears dissuade you from flying your family...safely and comfortably.

Oh, and one more thing which I'm surprised nobody has mentioned. Figure out your ACTUAL mission first. How many times do you really think you're going to load everyone and the dog up and go on vacation, versus you (or maybe you and the spouse) going for lunch or a weekend jaunt? How often do you do that now? Lots of threads on choosing the "right" RV around here.
 
Good advice here

...

And BTW, flying is NOT safet than driving. Flying *commercial* is, by far, but GA is not. IIRC, it falls somewhere between driving and motorcycle riding.

...
Joe's right - there is risk. But you can mitigate the major risks with just a bit of effort. Big three are fuel, weather, and loss of control (stall/spin/crash/burn/die). Avoiding these big three will greatly increase your chances of a good outcome.
 
Risk Is Everywhere

As stated above almost everything we choose to do has Risk. It depends on how you choose to manage it that counts.

With ground vehicles there are plenty of laws that govern how to manage it. Same as in aircraft (AD & SB for a few). Regulations and the AIM manual help manage the risk of flying as well.

I've flown my whole family on many flights. Once just the kids and I flew from Alaska to Idaho and back in a Piper Cherokee 140. I made a few mistakes, but was able to get the trip completed without any accidents (real lucky).

My kids were in the single digits back then. They still remember the flight and talk about it when we get together now (both are in the 30's).

Risk is worth it later in life when you hear the laughter and fond memories that your kids will share with you! They will bring things up you have long forgotten!

Best to ensure you have a safe aircraft, weather is good and that you yourself are ready for such flights! The long term rewards are worth it!

Family trips will be talked about for many years! Even just simple flights to get in the air.

Have fun, be safe and enjoy flying with the family!

Best regards,
Mike Bauer
 
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Andy---yes some sole searching is needed to get the answer you are looking for. Whether its a plane, or the family car on the interstate, accidents can happen. I wouldnt base my decision on whether to fly with all the family members---ever driven with all of them in the car/truck?

Tom
 
Assess your own personal skill level. You stated that this past Father's Day you "finally" got to share you passion of flight with both of your children. Maybe I'm reading into it, but are you a relatively new pilot? If so, it might be wise to get some hours as PIC under your belt before taking the family up. I still consider myself a relatively new pilot with less that a thousand hours logged. It wasn't until I reach about five hundred hours that I realized how green I actually was. After about that five hundred hour mark I began to get that "new pilot" humble feeling all over again and realize how much I still needed to learn. I know everyone's skill level is different and you're the only one that can honestly assess yours. I think I'd let that be my guiding light regarding the concerns you're having.
 
This has been alluded to already, but figure out your mission first. Youve got two small kids, who, if you build, wont be small when youre done. Sure you can buy the RV you want, or any plane for that matter, and get cracking with flying your family all over the place.

But really, are you going to do that? Are you just thinking of vacation flying once a year, or is every weekend at Grandmas what you want to do? If youre not a pilot for occupation, or a CFI on the side, do you have the time (and money?) for all the training needed to stay current - VFR, IFR take your pick - even before youre comfortable putting your family in the plane? And airplane, hangar etc expenses?

Small kids grow up wicked quick. For me, 60hrs a week job, with only two short weekend days to pack everything in, there was no way I could do the flying necessary to stay current. Back shelf. I only re-picked up flying (and building) when my kids went to college and the nest was empty. Otherwise, it was the car and the airlines. Your kids (and wife) will remember the experiences of you being there. And much more, when you werent.

Just a different perspective.
 
Family Time

I have a wife and 2 kids, 5 & 8 yrs old, not too different to the OP. I started my -10 before our 8yr old was born and finished about 2 yrs ago. Like the OP, we also dreamed of family trips and I'm happy to say we've not been in the least disappointed. We've been to the Bahamas, the East Coast, camping to see the Solar Eclipse, 2 vacations with the wife's extended (large) family where everybody else drove 8 or 9 hrs while we breezed in in our plane! Dog rescues, pancake breakfasts, the Pella Tulip Festival, Gaston's for fishing with my son, all complete with lifetime memories. There's risk involved and we accept that. We mitigate as much of it as possible - I built the plane with dual batteries, dual bus, dual alternators and dual AHARS. I have an instrument rating and fly instruments regularly, including on the family trips. All that said, I'm comfortable with our risk/reward equation - and the reward is significant. As with anything, you've got to weigh both sides, if you don't, you (and your family) might just miss out on some great life experiences! :)
 
Consider different approaches to flight when entire family is on board

When I fly by myself I have few fears of a catastrophic accident. I may fly low, if the scenery is worthwhile, I may fly over un-landable terrain, I may fly with reduced visibility, etc.. I don't do stupid, but my flight considerations are different than when I have passengers.

When friends or family are with me my approach to the flight changes. My weather minimums go up. I may change the flight plan to remain in gliding distance of an airport at all times (easily possible where i live), I fly higher, I am more conservative on fuel estimates, etc..

By taking a closer look at increasing the safety margins when I fly with friends and family I have a greater comfort level in the successful outcome of the flight.
 
Simply do whatever you can to intelligently and thoroughly mitigate the risks of any endeavor. Training, practice, reading, equipment, etc. After that, it pays to remember that the universe is entirely chaos-driven and that life is a crapshoot with most circumstances boiling down to chance.

Regardless of the vehicle involved - car, bike, or plane - I wouldn't go myself if I wasn't entirely confident in my own competence. Given that, it's never made a difference to me if I had one person along for the ride, five, or fifty.

If you're a competent, current, and proficient pilot, then go and don't think twice about it.
 
Some analysis of accident statistics can help you in shopping for the right airframe to help allay some concerns around protecting your family. Some airframe types seem more accident-prone (think more complex fuel systems that are easier to mis-manage, or similar design-related challenges). Some airframes do better than others in protecting their occupants.

I've stated it in this forum several times that crash survivability was an important factor that was considered when we chose the aircraft we would build. That, along with ability to meet our mission requirements, drove us to select something other than a Vans product. It was the "fit for mission" requirements that primarily drove selection of a different aircraft, but that choice was then supported by a thorough investigation of historical crash data to ensure the chosen airframe would meet our mission requirements safely.

Even at that, with an aircraft capable of carrying 4 people, it is initially flying with only two seats filled until such time as I can assure myself that I am able to reduce or mitigate risk factors to the point where I personally am comfortable filling all four seats. I'm nearly there now. A few more long cross-country trips will, I believe, give me what I need to feel that I know the airplane well enough to fill the seats and fly with risks mitigated to the greatest extent of which I'm capable.
 
You have a tough road ahead of you working out the answer to a statistically irrational fear influenced by a familiar accident. I used to call it stupid, but then I found myself with similar moments of fear in other aviation travels, so just human nature to get wrapped up in things like this from time to time. I just ignore the risk side and enjoy the reward: I know that I really would like to have a Cirrus for ASEL hard IFR and mountainous night flying, but I still fly what I fly.
 
Knowledge is the antidote to anxiety. You are afraid of what you don't know. This is a good thing, as it puts you well ahead of a lot of pilots who don't know that they don't know enough. The first thing to do is to be honest with yourself. Most pilots think they are above average (which if you think about it is statistically impossible). Assume you are average at best. But here's the trick: don't let that scare you, instead use it as motivation to get better and learn more.

Most pilots think accidents will happen to the other guy. This is necessary because if we thought we were going to get in an accident, we wouldn't get into the plane! So again, you have to use some trickery here. Admit that accidents can happen to you, but don't let it stop you. Use it as motivation to be cautious and diligent about your flying.

By doing these things you will be putting yourself way above the average pilot in terms of safety, putting yourself into a class that statistically has much fewer accidents. Do you know how many pilots do not preflight? A lot more than you'd think. How many don't use checklists? (I used to be that guy.) How many don't do runups and mag checks, or do them cursory? To be honest, it doesn't take much to put yourself in the upper quartile safety wise.

Notice we haven't even talked about your actual flying yet. It's all about attitude. Someone else mentioned that the airlines have a much lower accident rate than GA. Well you don't need to be a pro to fly like one. Just do what they do. Adopt their attitude.

Now, once you that you can address the actual flying. This is easy. Go get an instrument rating. Nothing will pay more dividends than this. Even if you never fly IFR, the situational awareness and ability to use the resources in the plane and ATC to their fullest are invaluable. Plus to stay current you have fly with an instructor or another pilot every 6 months. This is like a mini BFR or checkride, and forces you to study up and fly right.

My kids are 3 and 5, and I would say the above hit my like an epiphany around 4 years ago. Before I never thought about it, but suddenly this awesome responsibility fell onto my shoulders. It shouldn't make a difference, but when it's your kids (and not all those young eagles you flew before) it does. It's going to change your outlook on flying, and you know what....that's ok. Last weekend I delayed a flight to a local island for a family fun event due to low ceilings. I wouldn't have thought twice launching alone, but the kids aren't old enough to swim and we couldn't get high enough to glide. So we waited until we could.

My flying is different now, but it's no less fun. And if it isn't fun, that's the first sign I shouldn't be doing it. So I change something (more training, wait for weather, etc...) until it is again.

DEM
 
I've been a professional pilot for 32 years. My two children have recently left the nest.

My first airplane was a Mooney that I owned for 7 years. The whole family flew in it a grand total of ONE time. The wife supports my hobby, but has no interest in flying in small airplanes. If she can't be served a beer or go to the bathroom, the airplane is too small for her.

My son always went with me to Oshkosh, but as a teenager, never felt compelled to get up on a Saturday morning to go with me. Just doesn't have the passion.

I now own an RV-6 that my father built. I mostly fly by myself, but have taken others when requested. Even though I fly professionally and consider myself proficient, I don't sleep as well when I have committed to fly someone else.

If I'm being honest, I prefer to fly by myself and would be happy with an RV-3.
 
And BTW, flying is NOT safet than driving. Flying *commercial* is, by far, but GA is not. IIRC, it falls somewhere between driving and motorcycle riding.
.

I expect those stats include running out of fuel and flight into known weather. I tell people if you don't run out of fuel or choose to fly into iffy weather, you are safer up there than on the highway. Am I wrong?
 
Joe's right - there is risk. But you can mitigate the major risks with just a bit of effort. Big three are fuel, weather, and loss of control (stall/spin/crash/burn/die). Avoiding these big three will greatly increase your chances of a good outcome.

Should have waited till I got farther into the thread. Yeah, what he said.
 
I now own an RV-6 that my father built. I mostly fly by myself, but have taken others when requested. Even though I fly professionally and consider myself proficient, I don't sleep as well when I have committed to fly someone else.

If I'm being honest, I prefer to fly by myself and would be happy with an RV-3.

I would have a hard time letting go of a plane my father built. I really think that's your son's or grandchild's plane. Enjoy it.
 
I would have a hard time letting go of a plane my father built. I really think that's your son's or grandchild's plane. Enjoy it.

Don't misunderstand...

I will never get rid of the RV-6. Sweet airplane. Just saying that If it was a single seat airplane, I'd be just as happy with it...
 
Should have waited till I got farther into the thread. Yeah, what he said.

I usually find that non-pilots have fears that fall into two or three general categories:
Hitting another airplane while in flight
Engine failure causing the plane to fall out of the sky
Take-off or landing accident

The first is usually eliminated once they see the big, open sky, hear ATC call traffic, and now I can point out my EFIS with ADS-B showing traffic

Second is pretty common: "what happens if the engine quits?" and I can explain how this almost *never* happens, but even so, here are the things I do to keep that from happening (fuel management, maintenance) AND that should that occur, it doesn't cause the plane to fall from the sky.

Third is usually dealt with by talking them through everything that will happen and what they'll see and hear while I take off or land.
 
Big three are fuel, weather, and loss of control (stall/spin/crash/burn/die). Avoiding these big three will greatly increase your chances of a good outcome.
And if I recall correctly, eliminating those three alone is enough to make it safer than driving.
 
Family Ride

Yes when I first bought a Piper Dakota 20 years ago it was for the purpose of family vacations. And we did it all the time until kids went off to college. I think it is safer than climbing into a car and going on the roads.

Now I fly the Piper Dakota mostly by myself for lunch and rendezvous with other pilot buddies. Sometimes the wife goes. That's special.

But, my RV-7A is almost done. Then I'll sell the Dakota.

Have Fun

PS, I may end up buying a Bonanza in a few years to take grandchildren on vacation. We'll see. Maybe a Cherokee 6.
 
Thanks for all the great feedback.

It really comes down to 3 things as I see it;

1. Being honest about my proficiency (addressing the safety aspect)
2. The actual likelihood that I would routinely take the whole family on flights (addresses the mission reqs for type aircraft)
3. Fiances

Appreciate all the perspectives
 
Worrying

Spend enough time worrying and you?ll soon find it?s too late to do anything and die regretting you didn?t live the life you hoped for.
Do you really want to be like the majority of the population watching life on tv?
With rewards comes risks.
 
It's been said "Get to the ground in control and don't hit anything heavier than your airplane and you will probably survive the accident." You can't do much better than a Vans airplane for that. I fly a Cozy which is more like a no-flap, no-spoiler glider. I fly every pattern in idle as a simulated engine-out pattern. Most times I can hit the touchdown point at a reasonable 65-70 KIAS. A Vans pilot should be able to do that at 50-55(?) KIAS which is much more survivable.

If you fly at a altitude that gives you some thinking time and practice engine-out landings, don't worry about it. They also say: "Altitude, airspeed, or brains. Any two will do."
 
after all of this is said it comes down to how YOU take all this.when i was in my 30's i would regularly take my wife and 2 kids in my warrior to our up north cabin.
now i have grand kids and i have never even asked if they want a ride.and my daughter has never asked when i was gonna give rides.
in the end it's how you feel about it.
 
Only once did I end up with the entire family.... wife and two young sons in a warrior. I found I was VERY ACUTELY aware of the situation. No problems but I do understand the thoughts and concerns.
I haven't taken my two grandchildren that live close enough flying with me yet. There mom, my daughter in law, is a tough sell. Granddaughter is 11 and grandson is 6. I've tried to explain to her that if she waits too long there's a chance the kids might develop a fear of flying. Now's the time. If I ever do get to take them... one at a time in my 7A... I know that once again I'll feel that acute awareness! The only thing that bothers me is the airport that is only a mile from there house, where I would do a first flight with them is surrounded on all sides by at least 50+ feet high forest of pine trees. I wish there were some open spaces for an emergency!
 
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